I'm looking to possibly upgrade to a better turntable.
My current setup is a Thorens TD166 MKII with the original tp11 tonearm. The table has a few mods including a solid cherry plinth and birch bottom with sorbothane feet. It also came with the 10mm spindle bearing, same one used on the TD160.
Amp: Rogue audio Sphinx Preamp: MM preamp built into the Sphinx Cartidge: Shure M97xe with SAS stylus Speakers: Monitor Audio Silver 8
The components listed above are my recent upgrades. I now think my table is due for an upgrade.
I am considering installing a Jelco SA750D tonearm on my Thorens, since the tonearm is likely the weakest performing part of the table, or going with a completely new table.
I am considering the following tables:
Rega Planar 3 (possibly not a big leap?)
Rega RP8
VPI Classic 1
Acoustic Signature Wow XL with Rega arm.
I am leaning toward the VPI, partly because I really like its look, but I do want the best sounding table under $3000 (subjective I know). Overall, I'm pleased with the current sound from my Thorens, so maybe the best bang for my buck would be a new tonearm. Some members have claimed that a Debut Carbon will blow the doors of a TD166, but in my personal experience, it's the opposite. So I'm thinking I'd probably need to spend over 1K for a real sonic upgrade over my Thorens.
Anyone have experience with VPI tables versus Thorens TD16X series? Any advice is welcome.
Well I pulled the trigger on a VPI classic 2 with a VPI zephyr high output cart. Purchased it from Music Direct. They set up the cart for me. Got it set up on Saturday. I was running a Thorens TD-160 with a REGA / J.A. MICHELL RB303 TONEARM upgrade and a Denon DL-103R. I am very happy with the VPI and the soundsmith zephr. This is a huge upgrade Imho
I have a classic 1 front motor jmw memorial 10" its a great table in the 2 k used range .. the sds is a great upgrade also .. i have had a few carts . Benz , dyna denon etc nothing major but i am going to try the at art9 next it gets killer reviews and supposedly punches waaay above its 1g range . Rare in U.S ... i run no mat and 2" audiopoints. Acoustic zen reference 2 to my mf mxvynl the az ref 2 to pre .. epic nah ... but alot of bang for the buck .. also a origin belt upgrade i hear is a plus .. do a search for audio tecnica art9 there are a few ,Oregon papa has a good one . Next level upgrade for my tt would be a the upgraded prime or the transfi tt ( crazy cool for the 3500 range ) jmho there are many option .. but imo go used for tt or phono . Cart new cheers
I didn't own the Classic for very long but in the brief time I did, it didn't outperform my Thorens. My Thorens does have some low rumble noise at higher volumes that the VPI did not. I currently have a $300 cart mounted to my Thorens (with stock tonearm) and it sounded better than the VPI with a Soundsmith Carmen. The VPI clearly ran slow while my Thorens holds almost perfect speed, even without a speed controller. The Thorens just has that great belt-drive analog fluidity and ease to the sound. To me, the Classic sounded like a worn out cassette tape.
From what I've gathered, the older Classic 1s are far superior to recent production models, mostly due to the differences in the motor. I was told the motor is mounted to the steel top plate of the plinth on the older models, but the newer ones, including the example I received, have the motor screwed directly to the wood underneath the top plate. I was told the newer motors are inferior. I won't divulge his name, but I received this info from a very well known and respected audiophile.
Most Classics are going for somewhere between 2 and 3K. There's many options in this price range, including the Roksan Radius.
I would also like to hear a review of the Classic vs the Thorens. I have a Thorens TD-160 with a REGA / J.A. MICHELL RB303 TONEARM upgrade and a Denon DL-103R. Runing thru Mcintosh mc-352 x 2 and Mcintosh C-50, Martin Logan Montis speakers
Have been giving some thought to a VPI classic 1 that has been on cragslist for over a week.
My Thorens TDC 850 was made by Acoustic Signature. I have molded it though with a Origin Live motor, carbon fiber motor plate and carbon fiber tone arm board. I run an Audiomods arm. The plinth, bearing and platter is very good.
It is the best table I've owned. Acaustic Signature makes great tables. Enjoy.
Update: I took a gamble on an Acoustic Signature Wow XL with their TA-700 tonearm.
There was very little info about these tables on the Web, aside from a couple good reviews from the common fluff Hi Fi mags.
What attracted me to the Wow was the high mass design and that the engineering focus was quiet operation and high build quality.
The concept is quite simple overall: good speed stability, rigidity and a robust main bearing.
I was a little disappointed that the tonearm doesn't allow for any easy azimuth adjustment. I had to shim the cartridge to achieve the proper azimuth. It was a bit of a pain and almost a deal breaker on the arm.
Anyway, I'm currently breaking in my SS Carmen on this table and I'm very pleased so far. It well exceeds the performance of the other tables I tried in almost every respect. I will say that my old Thorens gives it a run for the money in terms of PRAT, but that's not surprising since both have solid speed stability and a few similarities in design.
I plan to write a more comprehensive review on this table when it has gotten some mileage, probably in a new thread.Thanks again to all who participated in this discussion.
From what I've gathered from other forums and experienced VPI users, the newer Classic 1 models aren't up to par with the older models, particularly because of the difference in motors. I know I had the Classic set up correctly and troubleshot everything in my system. I'm 99% sure it was a motor issue (the slow speed) and main bearing noise (mechanical noise which lubrication could not remedy).
I may have just gotten a lemon. Due to the copious amount of scratches that were on the platter, I suspect I might have been sold a demo/previous open box unit. I realize it's a soft aluminum platter, but still...
I'll check out those other tonearms. Thanks for the suggestion, they might be a better match for my carts.
Stewart07.....The VPI mod will be available for the 3D arm with the use of an attachment to the arm, so you can just send away for it to modify your own. To be truthful, I have a 3D and couldn't care less about the wiggle when not in the groove....its extremely stable while tracking. If as you say there is no sonic improvement, I'll pass.
Wow! Something is really wrong. I hope you get it sorted out. However, if you send it back and stay with the Thorens, you will be very impressed with what a new tone arm will do to your table.
if you can try to get a Michell Technoarm or Audiomods. I've used both and they wring the best out of an already very good arm.
I tried all 3 pulley grooves and they produced similar results.
Maybe "trounced" isn't the best description, but my Thorens did sound significantly better. I'm not trying to bash VPI, I'm just being honest with my opinion.
I've read elsewhere that the motors in the new Classics aren't up to par with the older versions. Maybe true, and I considered requesting a retrofit, but I don't think it's worth the hassle. Every dealer I contacted doesn't have any older Classics in stock either. I'll be returning the table and looking for other options.
Very unfortunate you have problem table. The scraping suggests maybe something on the plinth, hitting underneath the platter? Personally, I don't buy into the break-in thing.If setup/cart selection is good, I either like it or not, and I won't "wait" for something to sound good. As time passes, good sound may develop subtle improvement, but it's there from the start. Surprising you chose "trounced" when comparing tables. I would think simply a different presentation. Trounced suggests comparing a $300 entry level table to a 5K setup.
You did try all 3 pulley steps when checking speed? As previously mentioned, without a controller the speed will only be near 33.3. You are already aware this model needs a mod to use one. Regardless, the Classic should sound good as every review says it is stock.
Give it another chance and return it for another one. Insist AA issue a return label.
The outboard power supply label shows 48V DC to the motor.
I got the Classic all set up a couple days ago and have been less than thrilled with its performance. I realize that equipment needs time to break in, but the motor was very loud and I could hear it from across the room. The platter was making a 1/rev scraping sound that I was able to hear through my speakers, even at only 40-50 db. Also, the table ran quite slow when checked with a strobe disc. It seemed to smear the sound quite a bit. I let the table spin for a couple hours, checked the speed again and it was still drifting, regardless of belt: groove position.
I triple checked all setup parameters, nothing was wrong with the setup.
I really wanted to love the Classic but unfortunately it's not for me. Maybe I just received a lemon, but in my experience, exchanging products for one of the same or similar, rarely leads to full resolution.
For those who were wondering. My old Thorens with M97xe cart trounced the Classic with the SS Carmen cart. Of course, that was judging the Classic without much break-in time. My guess is the Classic would have been competitive once the cartridge broke-in, and speed issue was resolved, but for me, not worth the cost difference.
If your Classic has the built in controller ("mini SDS" powered by an external wall wart), it will not be compatible with the SDS, ADS or any other outboard controller. No matter what the ADS does to the 115V AC signal that it outputs, the table’s wall wart will convert it to DC and the table’s controller will regenerate a 24VAC signal for the Hurst motor. It will not control the speed, improve stability or reduce noise. To even suggest otherwise is patently false.
Helomec, congratulations on the VPI purchase, very nice table. I think the recommendation for Soundsmith is a good one. I would also take a look at the Nagaoka MP300 or 500. These are also Moving Iron, and very nice sounding. Happy Listening. Sturgus
We fired up a Zephyr Mimic Star for the first time today on one of the first Prime Signature and being totally ice cold it was very musical with a firm focus. We actually did a spur of the moment live stream with it. SS cartridges go very nice with our tables!
I have only heard the top dog-Strain Gauge and Sussuro Soundsmith carts.They naturally, were amazing. Likely the rest of the line is similar in their price points.
I had the Zephyr in mind when choosing the ART 9. The SS carts are a great match with VPI. At the time, the only reason I chose the ART9 is because I liked the sound of the existing cart-ATOC9III. Figuring the ART9 would improve on the weaknesss of the OC9, it was a gamble that payed off. If I ever get the itch, I would like to try the Aida or Zephyr MIMC.
I used a high output benz S on my Classic 1 that I sold several years back.....
VPI tables, both with 3D as well as the metal JMW Arms are very agreeable with Ortofon carts.....
I think you would find the color you're after with the 2M black, but I wouldn't buy any cart used..........all VPI dealers can get Ortofon thru VPI...and you should be able to get a new one w/ support in the 5s, as you've said......if you decide to move beyond that, I'd look @ Soundsmith, but you're not going to improve on the 2M Black by much....
I would pick this outstanding MM cart over any HOMC
Helomech-I misinterpreted your post about your acquisition. I thought you purchased the Classic SIGNATURE. I see you have regular Classic... Big difference in specs between the 2. Especially price$$$!!!!
That being the case, you still got a good deal. As MW stated, a nice cart is the way to go with this model.
Regarding phono stage-over time I decided I prefer an all tube presentation in my audio system. I have a out of production Fosgate, version 2. It was a $2.5K retail unit. I purchased mine nearly 4 years ago. The Manley Chinook and Rogue Ares are among the current units in this price point which are very nice. Recently I demoed a Chinook against the Fosgate. The Chinook is quieter, but I thought the Foz had more realistic overall sonics. A little tube hiss at VERY high volume, so not an issue for me. A couple of other units that look interesting especially for the price-Decware and Tavish.
I see you are using your existing amps built in, so I don't know if you have enough gain for LOMC? You can still use a HOMC 2.5mv with a MM output.
Enjoy your new table. FWIW, I use no mat on platter and use a little antiskate.These are 2 issues beaten to death on VPI tables.
Hey helomech, yes there was a time we had essentially a "mini power supply" in the table. It won't work with the Phoenix or SDS. The ADS was made while keeping in mind we had models out there with the mini PS board in there so it works but honestly... save the money, don'buy any of it and put the money in the cartridge (great cart for the money IMHO) and you will have a much greater jump in your sound improvement. Overall hope you're enjoying the table.
"I think the Classic version I ordered has the DC controlled motor you mentioned earlier, so I won't be able to use a Phoenix, though apparently VPI makes something called an ADS speed controller that will work"
Huh? Interesting. I took a quick peek at the specs. Your table has the 300 RPM motor. Does it still have a wall wart you plug into the motor? If it does, then I guess it does have an on board AC regen. In any case, yes the deviation is subtle. Only when audio nervosa kicks in, we get obsessive about mechanical perfection. I suppose belt wear makes a difference.
I heard the Orto Black. It's a nice MM cart. When I went LOMC, I never looked back.
That ADS appears to just be the "new and improved" SDS. I'm sure it's great, but for the cost, the Phoenix just seems like a better buy.
I think the Classic version I ordered has the DC controlled motor you mentioned earlier, so I won't be able to use a Phoenix, though apparently VPI makes something called an ADS speed controller that will work. It's not cheap.
I've noticed with my Music Hall Cruise Control that my ears can't pick up speed changes around +/- 0.2.
Maybe the controller helps with transients, but I would think a DC controlled motor and an 18 lb platter probably mitigates most of those issues.
I will probably wear out my current budget cartridges while I save for a cartridge like the one you mentioned.
Another tempting route is the Ortofon 2M black, which are selling for about $500 on FleaBay. I wasn't too impressed with the Ortofon 2M red, haven't heard any of the others in that lineup. I think I like cartridges with a bit of color in their sound, which is why I find the Clearaudio a bit bland.
I'm jealous. That is a great table for the money. If you get the tweak bug, brass footers and a 4" maple slab are the finishing touches on my Classic. As far as a sonic improvements, I'm not sure if it's just psychological, but it sure looks nicer(i thought the stock feet were the weakpoint)
Consider the Phoenix controller if you haven't yet.
Read the threads on the Audio Technica ART 9. It has reached cult status. Not cheap($1200) but not ridiculous expensive considering the performance. I really enjoy mine. It even has HW's approval. Experienced listeners compare the ART9 with super carts.
I have used other 1K carts-Benz Micro Glider & Sumiko Blackbird. Both excellent carts, but the ART9 is closer to the middle(neutral) Subjective, like everything else. I don't buy into the "use this cart for this type of music" I haven't read any negative user reviews on the ART9.Fabulous cart!
I don't imagine the Classic will be sent back, but I think I'll likely keep the Thorens anyway and eventually it will get the Jelco arm, and end up in my second system. The Thorens paired well with my Epos Epics and Yamaha amp.
My Pioneer will likely be sold, because even though its performance is great for the price, it doesn't have that belt drive "soul."
So now I'll hijack my own thread and ask for cart recommendations for the Classic.
I am leaning toward a Dynavector 10x5 since it's HOMC.
I really do like the Phono stage in my Sphinx. Though I don't hold Stereophile reviews in real high esteem, they did describe the Sphinx's phono stage as "excellent." I'm weary about spending a huge sum (1k for my means) on a new phono stage for only a slight improvement. So for now, I'd like to stick with HOMC or MM carts.
I can confidently claim that my M97xe with SAS was definitely not the weak link in my Thorens set up. I wouldn't be surprised if anything in the $500 range would be a lateral move.
I also have a Clearaudio V2 MM, modded with a shibata stylus. I find it sounds too similar to digital, somewhat clinical.
This hobby kills the wallet, my girlfriend thinks I'm insane.
Without the tonearm upgrade on the Thorens the VPI will wipe it clean. The single biggest improvement I had when I tricked out my 166 was a change from the stock arm to a Rega. That coupled with everything else I did made in one great sounding table. That doesn't mean it would sound better than a VPI Classic, though.
I would be totally happy with the VPI and I think you will be, too.
I finally took the plunge on a VPI classic 1 SE in the walnut finish.
Music Direct has them on clearance and I think it's a good deal at only $300 over a new Scout.
I really like everything I've read about the Acoustic Signature Wow XL. I almost bought one, but I would've had to settle for an entry level tonearm with that table to remain within budget.
I was also very close to continuing to upgrade my Thorens, but I think the VPI will probably outperform a fully upgraded TD16X. I will likely move it on to a new home, assuming I will like the VPI.
Part of my decision was the ability to return the VPI without hassle if I'm not impressed, and VPIs reputation for customer support.
I'll keep you posted on my impressions. Thanks for all the input.
Rumor has it that VPI is discontinuing the Classic line of turntables...(I have the Classic Signature w/SDS)... If true, look for some deep discounts around the holiday season.
If you hold out for something used, you may even be able to find a VPI Prime for under or around 3K, which blows all the others clean out of the water.
My Rogue Audio Shinx has a tube preamp stage, though the output modules are Hypex Class D, I'm pretty sure the class D portion isn't in the signal chain of the phono section (why would it?) so essentially it is a tube phono preamp, allegedly the same one in their Cronus amp.
Helomech- Ive been following this thread. Your table clearly is deserving of a more substantial phono stage Personally, I would do a cart as well(LOMC)
IMO , I believe you just can't hear your table at its best without a good outboard phono stage. My preference is tubes, but very nice SS approach tube magic minus the noise some listeners won't ttolerate (high volume listening) The nicer phono stage also makes an existing cart shine in its best light.
Thanks for the input. I haven't heard of Kworks but I'll look them up. I've owned a couple relatively inexpensive non suspended tables and a suspended Pioneer PL55x. The Pioneer was very good, I almost regret selling it, but I didn't care for its look.
I owned a Debut Carbon that doesn't hold a candle to the Thorens, but the debut is considered entry level. The main bearing is about 1/3 the diameter.
My Pioneer PLX1000 direct drive sounds very good, especially for the $400 I paid for it used. My TD166 has a more fluid sound which I prefer with some music. The Pioneer excels with electronic music...go figure. Some have claimed that the Pioneer can hold its own against some VPIs, even a Scout.
I will likely make the drive to Acoustic Sounds to listen to a VPI, but I'm afraid they'll have it hooked up to a much better system. Maybe they'll be willing to swap components.
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