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TableJockey,
Thanks for the tip. I was unaware of the variations. I have a Music Hall Cruise control which allegedly is compatible with some VPI models. It works well with my Thorens. How do you like the sound of the Classic? |
I run my Thorens with a music hall cruise control. It seems to run at the correct speed (checked by strobe disc) when the controller reads 33.5 rpm.
I agree that any table in that price range should hold perfect speed without an outboard controller.
There's almost too many options in turntables these days. Unfortunately I don't have a means of auditioning them locally. |
Raymonda,
WTRP, are you referring to a Well Tempered?
I am leaning toward the Jelco tonearm, partly because my TD166 is in beautiful condition and I think I'd forever wonder what could've been if I didn't maximize its potential.
I also have a Pioneer PLX1000 with a modified (shibata) Clearaudio MM cart. It has very comparable performance to my Thorens with the exception of its direct drive momentum.
I currently use the preamp built into my Rogue Audio Sphinx, which many claim can compete with most preamps under 1k. It is better than my Parasound Z-Phono which is also quite respectable.
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I appreciate everyone's input. I'm about 90% set on going the route of continuing to mod the Thorens. However, I do enjoy really deep bass, and I've read that even the best sprung turntables never excel in that respect.
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Raymonda,
I already have a cruise control. I think it made a very slight improvement. I just began disassembly of the table this morning, so it's not very photogenic at the moment. I will post pics when the mod is complete. Right now it has the resin subplatter with 10 MM bearing. I'm considering getting the zinc subplatter, but I would think it might be more prone to ringing...maybe you have some insight on the matter?
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My Thorens will be maxed out for the most part, after I replace the tonearm. The other mods I've done have improved the sound slightly, but I have a feeling that a new arm will yield the greatest improvement and elevate it to another level. I already have the armboard for the Jelco, so in all, it would set me back about $1100 to install the new arm and a better cartridge (considering a 10x5).
Of course, that's about one third of what it would likely cost to get into a Prime. I highly doubt a Prime will sound 3x better than my fully modded Thorens, as my table already sounds very good to my ears. My gut feeling is that I'll be well into the territory of diminishing returns once my Thorens is maxed out. I'm also thinking I might get more bang for my buck if I replace the tonearm and spend 2k on a cartridge, rather than spend 3k on a VPI and 500 on a cartridge.
I'm fairly mechanically inclined and I enjoy modifying and improving things. Part of me feels it would be a shame to relegate my Thorens to the closet after all I've invested. It went from a humble $200 Craigslist find to a beautiful (piece of art in my view) table that produces very satisfying sound in its current state.
If a Jelco tonearm and better cartridge yields a 20% improvement in sound, I think I could live happily with my Thorens for a long time. |
And I'd have a lot of dough left for black discs and maybe a new listening chair. |
Thanks Raymonda.
I've already done the Dynamat mod to the underside areas. I will probably get the reproduction Super top plate from VN as well.
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Many reviewers claim the Rogue Sphinx's phono section alone is worth the price of the whole amp. |
Bondmanp,
Thanks for the input. I haven't heard of Kworks but I'll look them up. I've owned a couple relatively inexpensive non suspended tables and a suspended Pioneer PL55x. The Pioneer was very good, I almost regret selling it, but I didn't care for its look.
I owned a Debut Carbon that doesn't hold a candle to the Thorens, but the debut is considered entry level. The main bearing is about 1/3 the diameter.
My Pioneer PLX1000 direct drive sounds very good, especially for the $400 I paid for it used. My TD166 has a more fluid sound which I prefer with some music. The Pioneer excels with electronic music...go figure. Some have claimed that the Pioneer can hold its own against some VPIs, even a Scout.
I will likely make the drive to Acoustic Sounds to listen to a VPI, but I'm afraid they'll have it hooked up to a much better system. Maybe they'll be willing to swap components.
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My Rogue Audio Shinx has a tube preamp stage, though the output modules are Hypex Class D, I'm pretty sure the class D portion isn't in the signal chain of the phono section (why would it?) so essentially it is a tube phono preamp, allegedly the same one in their Cronus amp. |
I finally took the plunge on a VPI classic 1 SE in the walnut finish.
Music Direct has them on clearance and I think it's a good deal at only $300 over a new Scout.
I really like everything I've read about the Acoustic Signature Wow XL. I almost bought one, but I would've had to settle for an entry level tonearm with that table to remain within budget.
I was also very close to continuing to upgrade my Thorens, but I think the VPI will probably outperform a fully upgraded TD16X. I will likely move it on to a new home, assuming I will like the VPI.
Part of my decision was the ability to return the VPI without hassle if I'm not impressed, and VPIs reputation for customer support.
I'll keep you posted on my impressions. Thanks for all the input.
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I don't imagine the Classic will be sent back, but I think I'll likely keep the Thorens anyway and eventually it will get the Jelco arm, and end up in my second system. The Thorens paired well with my Epos Epics and Yamaha amp.
My Pioneer will likely be sold, because even though its performance is great for the price, it doesn't have that belt drive "soul."
So now I'll hijack my own thread and ask for cart recommendations for the Classic.
I am leaning toward a Dynavector 10x5 since it's HOMC.
I really do like the Phono stage in my Sphinx. Though I don't hold Stereophile reviews in real high esteem, they did describe the Sphinx's phono stage as "excellent." I'm weary about spending a huge sum (1k for my means) on a new phono stage for only a slight improvement. So for now, I'd like to stick with HOMC or MM carts.
I can confidently claim that my M97xe with SAS was definitely not the weak link in my Thorens set up. I wouldn't be surprised if anything in the $500 range would be a lateral move.
I also have a Clearaudio V2 MM, modded with a shibata stylus. I find it sounds too similar to digital, somewhat clinical.
This hobby kills the wallet, my girlfriend thinks I'm insane. |
Tablejockey,
I think the Classic version I ordered has the DC controlled motor you mentioned earlier, so I won't be able to use a Phoenix, though apparently VPI makes something called an ADS speed controller that will work. It's not cheap.
I've noticed with my Music Hall Cruise Control that my ears can't pick up speed changes around +/- 0.2.
Maybe the controller helps with transients, but I would think a DC controlled motor and an 18 lb platter probably mitigates most of those issues.
I will probably wear out my current budget cartridges while I save for a cartridge like the one you mentioned.
Another tempting route is the Ortofon 2M black, which are selling for about $500 on FleaBay. I wasn't too impressed with the Ortofon 2M red, haven't heard any of the others in that lineup.
I think I like cartridges with a bit of color in their sound, which is why I find the Clearaudio a bit bland. |
Thank you Mat, that's good to know.
Haven't taken delivery of the table yet, can't wait to get it spinning.
Tablejockey,
What kind of phono stage are you using?
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Thanks tablejockey,
The classic Signature was over my budget.
I'm now considering a Soundsmith Carmen or Grado Sonata2 which would work with my current phono stage. |
The most appealing aspect of the SoundSmith carts is the relatively low cost of retipping vs MCs.
I've noticed cartridge prices are skyrocketing. Many carts cost 20% more than at this time last year. |
Thanks to everyone here for the advice and insight.
I'll report back after I've had some time with my Classic. |
Tablejockey,
The table allegedly has a "built-in" SDS.
I tried all 3 pulley grooves and they produced similar results.
Maybe "trounced" isn't the best description, but my Thorens did sound significantly better. I'm not trying to bash VPI, I'm just being honest with my opinion.
I've read elsewhere that the motors in the new Classics aren't up to par with the older versions. Maybe true, and I considered requesting a retrofit, but I don't think it's worth the hassle. Every dealer I contacted doesn't have any older Classics in stock either. I'll be returning the table and looking for other options. |
The outboard power supply label shows 48V DC to the motor.
I got the Classic all set up a couple days ago and have been less than thrilled with its performance. I realize that equipment needs time to break in, but the motor was very loud and I could hear it from across the room. The platter was making a 1/rev scraping sound that I was able to hear through my speakers, even at only 40-50 db. Also, the table ran quite slow when checked with a strobe disc. It seemed to smear the sound quite a bit. I let the table spin for a couple hours, checked the speed again and it was still drifting, regardless of belt: groove position.
I triple checked all setup parameters, nothing was wrong with the setup.
I really wanted to love the Classic but unfortunately it's not for me. Maybe I just received a lemon, but in my experience, exchanging products for one of the same or similar, rarely leads to full resolution.
For those who were wondering. My old Thorens with M97xe cart trounced the Classic with the SS Carmen cart. Of course, that was judging the Classic without much break-in time. My guess is the Classic would have been competitive once the cartridge broke-in, and speed issue was resolved, but for me, not worth the cost difference. |
Raymonda,
From what I've gathered from other forums and experienced VPI users, the newer Classic 1 models aren't up to par with the older models, particularly because of the difference in motors. I know I had the Classic set up correctly and troubleshot everything in my system. I'm 99% sure it was a motor issue (the slow speed) and main bearing noise (mechanical noise which lubrication could not remedy).
I may have just gotten a lemon. Due to the copious amount of scratches that were on the platter, I suspect I might have been sold a demo/previous open box unit. I realize it's a soft aluminum platter, but still...
I'll check out those other tonearms. Thanks for the suggestion, they might be a better match for my carts. |
Update: I took a gamble on an Acoustic Signature Wow XL with their TA-700 tonearm.
There was very little info about these tables on the Web, aside from a couple good reviews from the common fluff Hi Fi mags.
What attracted me to the Wow was the high mass design and that the engineering focus was quiet operation and high build quality.
The concept is quite simple overall: good speed stability, rigidity and a robust main bearing.
I was a little disappointed that the tonearm doesn't allow for any easy azimuth adjustment. I had to shim the cartridge to achieve the proper azimuth. It was a bit of a pain and almost a deal breaker on the arm.
Anyway, I'm currently breaking in my SS Carmen on this table and I'm very pleased so far. It well exceeds the performance of the other tables I tried in almost every respect. I will say that my old Thorens gives it a run for the money in terms of PRAT, but that's not surprising since both have solid speed stability and a few similarities in design.
I plan to write a more comprehensive review on this table when it has gotten some mileage, probably in a new thread.Thanks again to all who participated in this discussion.
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biketony,
I didn't own the Classic for very long but in the brief time I did, it didn't outperform my Thorens. My Thorens does have some low rumble noise at higher volumes that the VPI did not. I currently have a $300 cart mounted to my Thorens (with stock tonearm) and it sounded better than the VPI with a Soundsmith Carmen. The VPI clearly ran slow while my Thorens holds almost perfect speed, even without a speed controller. The Thorens just has that great belt-drive analog fluidity and ease to the sound. To me, the Classic sounded like a worn out cassette tape.
From what I've gathered, the older Classic 1s are far superior to recent production models, mostly due to the differences in the motor. I was told the motor is mounted to the steel top plate of the plinth on the older models, but the newer ones, including the example I received, have the motor screwed directly to the wood underneath the top plate. I was told the newer motors are inferior. I won't divulge his name, but I received this info from a very well known and respected audiophile.
Most Classics are going for somewhere between 2 and 3K. There's many options in this price range, including the Roksan Radius. |
Biketony,
Congrats on your new rig. I'm glad it turned out to be a good upgrade over your Thorens.
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I can't help but wonder what it costs VPI to print their 3D tonearms. |
