Upcoming Technics SP-10R (100th Anniversary Model)

I guess if you put 3 inches of rubber in your plinth, you too could have high signal to noise ratios!

Yes, I kind of wish they had dropped that square escutcheon that characterized the Mk2 and Mk3.  Because of it, you are pretty much limited to a 12-inch tonearm, if you want to add a second tonearm to a Mk2 or 3.

The image with 3 tonearms is actually a 3D model, not a photo. 
Even 2 tonearms is too much for this design, but 3 of them on some side brackets looks very strange. It's all because of the square chassis. 

https://images.cdn.whathifi.com/sites/whathifi.com/files/styles/big-image/public/brands/news/CES2018...

Those sure appear to be 2 Ortofons mounted on the Technics.
Think that was just by chance or?

Dear @lewm : The today gentlemans in Technics maybe are not the best true audiophile experts but Technics is just Technics and second to none  and with the "b reborn " of the SP10 MK3 but heavy up-dated I'm sure that  the 10R/1000R not only competes and could be a really challenge and outperforms several TT out there that are with tags over 60K and you can name any heavy $$$$ TT and I know for sure that many of them cabn't compete with.

I'm sure too that the 1000R is a very good design whereb the arm tube comes from magnesium. Yes till we try it we can't know nothing for sure.

But here we can see a 1000R with its own tonearm and mounted around two non-Technics different tonearms that I think are coming from Ortofon:

https://www.whathifi.com/news/ces-2018-technics-introduces-sp-10r-and-sl-1000r-turntables


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Chakster and Totem, Based on Ralph's description of the plinth for the SL1200G, which is very favorable, I would imagine that the plinth for the 10R is state of the art or even represents a new state of the art.  If an exact replica of the EPA100 were to be manufactured today, what do you think it would have to cost?  I am thinking at least $4-5,000.  So, I am betting that Technics was well aware that there would be push-back on the $10K surcharge for plinth and tonearm but that they have gone to the max to justify it.  There is at least one aftermarket supplier selling plinths for the Mk2 and Mk3 that exceed $10K in cost, and you only get a plinth, no sota tonearm.

@lewm
 Also, I can gloat, because I predicted the retail price of the 10R very closely on the nose, albeit on my second guess.

I was off although I'll blame it on age and get away with it. 

I think the plinth and arm at $10,000 is a bit of a hard sell while the drive and power supply for $10,000 I can see.

@lewm

To my eyes it is more like the old lead console than classic obsidian plinth.
But i hope it’s much better.

https://ksassets.timeincuk.net/wp/uploads/sites/54/2018/01/Technics-SL-1000R-dust-cover-768x576.jpg

Chakster, The shape of the whole SP1000R package should remind you of  the analogous predecessor packages from Technics, the Mk2 and Mk3 in OEM plinths with a ringer for the EPA100 tonearm (SL1000, etc).  Why on earth would you bring up a "Lead Console Grandee-S", whatever that is?

Ralph, First of all, the tonearm suggests a reincarnation of the EPA100 or EPA250, two very very fine tonearms from the Technics past. Why is that so terrible?  Worst case scenario for someone who MUST use a different tonearm is you buy the package and re-sell the tonearm.  But also, you can buy the 10R alone, for HALF the cost of the 1000R, and mate it to whatever plinth and tonearm you like.  I don't see a cause for disappointment.

These products should be a cause for joy in the world of DD lovers and for all vinylistas who can open their minds to get rid of belt-drive. (OK, the dollar value of my Mk3 just took a hit, but I can survive that.)  Also, I can gloat, because I predicted the retail price of the 10R very closely on the nose, albeit on my second guess.  My first guess (15K to 20K) was correct for the 1000R.

I have to say I'm disappointed especially with the SL1000R; its not available without the arm! But maybe something can be done about that...

Happy New Year to everybody.

Updated information from Technics regarding the prices for Sp-10R and SL-1000R with a new plinth below:

1) The price for the SP-10R alone has been confirmed as $10000

2) SL-1000R aka SP-10R with New Plitnh will cost $20000
The plinth is 531mm wide and 399mm deep with 30mm-thick aluminium top plate. It brings the overall weight of the SL-1000R up to 40.2kg (including the 18.2kg of the SP-10R).

IMAGES OF THE NEW TECHNICS PLINTH for SL-1000R:

https://ksassets.timeincuk.net/wp/uploads/sites/54/2018/01/Technics-SL-1000R-dust-cover-768x576.jpg

https://ksassets.timeincuk.net/wp/uploads/sites/54/2018/01/Technics-SL-1000R-magnesium-tonearm-768x5...

https://ksassets.timeincuk.net/wp/uploads/sites/54/2018/01/Technics-SL-1000R-turntable-768x513.jpg

https://ksassets.timeincuk.net/wp/uploads/sites/54/2018/01/Technics-SL-1000R-920x615.jpg

p.s. the shape of the plinth and armboard from the top view reminds me so called Lead Console Grandee-S from the 70s. To be honest i'm not impressed by the design again :(   

I do not know about everybody else; but I am saving my nickels. This is going to be Spendy. Has everyone seen the video with MF on Analog Planet.

Best to All on this Journey 

I am excited. Just saw Michael Fremer video of Technics 10 R prototype. Still in final design for introduction next summer.
Will be made so that you can use arms of your choice.

I for one will wait anxiously. Yes it will be Spendy. What isn't.

Nandric, Thank you for correcting me.  Perhaps the Serbian himself was indulging in wishful thinking, on two counts: the price of the 10R and my willingness to part with the L07D.

With apologies for the diversion re records for a moment
@chakster - I am in the same situation, from the U.S. perspective- there are many records in Europe that aren't terribly expensive but desirable and the shipping cost is sometimes equal to, or exceeds the price of the record. Also agree that "collectors" aren't looking at playing condition in the same way that we are, as "audiophiles." And, agree that a lot of the audiophile choices are overplayed, mainly for sonics, not musical content.
For R&B and soul, perhaps you can find a dealer here who will work with you and shop the records you want, and do larger shipments - it may be more cost effective. Ironically, I buy UK pressings of things like Curtis Mayfield because the US vinyl is very poor. You might consider coming for a show, like the WFMU show or the one just held here in Austin. (Though I find many of the show prices over-market, at least for known collectibles but for garden variety, you can do well).

Back to topic: 
I have an original SP-10, not a mkii, which I had restored by Bill Thalmann recently. I know it is not regarded in the same league as the mk ii or iii, but I've owned it since new, and needed a table for a second system. I have not yet installed an arm, but am eager to hear what this sounds like over my vintage Quad ESL/tube system.

It will be interesting to see the repercussions in the market of this new table, including the aftermarket plinths, etc. 
regards,
bill hart

Pani, Will you like the 10R better if the price is more than $10K?  Some will.  I find it pointless to argue about what the price will or won't be.  Whatever it will be is what it will be.  Also, haven't you changed your tune just a little bit?  Without looking at earlier posts the thread, I thought you or maybe someone else was predicting around $5K, as against the group, including me, that predicts $15K to $20K.  The more I think about it, ~$10K to $12K does make a lot of sense.  That would place the 10R clearly above the 1200GAE, yet not be so high as to alienate a broad base. In that price range, the 10R would "kill" lots of products that cost up to $30K retail. There I go, doing what I said is pointless.

So, I still stand with under $10k figure for the SP10-r

I would say that adding another coil makes it a new and different motor, but it's a question of semantics.  The basic design of a coreless motor suitable for use in a turntable has not changed since Dual invented it 60 years ago.  If you look at the Dual motor compared to the Victor and Kenwood coreless motors, you might think they all come from the same source.  I could also have included the Brinkmann coreless motor which is now only a few years old.  The only really novel coreless motor in recent years is the Thingap motor used by VPI in their DD turntable.

Coreless motors inherently have lower torque than a similar size iron core motor and also tend to run hotter, which places a limitation on how much torque can be generated within size constraints.  Adding a coil is one way to do it. Maybe that is also why the 10R platter will not be quite as massive as that of the Mk3.  Also, consider that a large fraction of the mass of the Mk3 platter is the huge circular magnet structure (the rotor), attached to the underside.  The 10R platter probably does not employ such a magnet, which alone could account for the difference in mass. 

downunder

The motor is the same as the current SL1200

Interesting thanks for the link.

They did mention that the new R has an additional motor coil added 
for the increase of torque.

Interesting video - interview with Technics head honcho.

https://www.analogplanet.com/content/talking-technics-sp-10r-ctochief-engineer-tetsuya-tony-itani#Kx7bh3118ok7f8ZW.01

Hmm.
The motor is the same as the current SL1200 except with an additional microprocessor to increase the torque.
Platter will be 7kgs vs 10kg for sp10mk3 - different design so maybe not apples to apples.
The new tonearm will not be new or like the EPA, but an improved version of the current SL1200.

I guess proof will be in the pudding.

I can’t speak for MK2, but the original EPA-100 was fine for several MC cartridge i’ve been using for a few years: AT-ART2000, Zyx Airy III and Zyx Premium 4D (7.9gm with silver base) . The headshell was original Technics and later Zyx Live-18.

You are right if the cartridge is heavy, but i agree that MM cartridges might be better option for this tonearm. I would use it with MM carts with pleasure.

I wonder, how many owners of the Technics EPA-100 mk2 tonearm we got here ?

Most likely it was the best Technics tonearm, it was the most expensive tonearm made by Technics, it seems to have the best materials such as metal pipe alloy of Boron and Titanium, and some of the best features such as the lowest bearing friction, dynamic damping, vta on the fly. The EPA-100Mk2 may have a slightly higher standard of machining than previous versions. The choice of metals and way of making the armtube was an improvement. Technics EPA-100Mk2 was introduced in 1982 with TOTL SP-10Mk3 turntable. Matched with Technics TOTL cartridge EPC-100Mk4. The SP-10Mk2A was brought out in 1983. The EPA-100Mk2 was made at a time when Japanese manufacturers were going all out to extend the reach of what was possible.

Let me add Raul's quotes below, he's one of the owner that i know: 

Over the last 30 years I don't know any single tonearm design that could beat " vintage " tonearms designs like Micro Seiki MAX 282, Technics EPA 100MK2, Audiocraft AC3300, Lustre GST 801... 

Technics EPA 100 MK2: Its unique variable dynamic damping shows the creativeness on the tonearm design along with an extremly stable 4-point gimbal employing ruby ball bearings with a friction of less than 3mg for movement in any direction and the use a metal pipe alloy of boron and titanium. Extremly hard to beat. -Raul

Raul, thanks for your reassurance.  I believe you live within Mexico City but I don't know which area and am not familiar with any of them anyway.

This has been a terrible sequence of disasters for Texas, south Florida, Mexico, and several Caribbean countries.

Yeah, as I said, it would be interesting to experiment with all that. I would not be surprised at all if different people, all having good hearing, preferred different plinths and also different plinth/arm/cartridge combinations. Neutrality is a myth. Sterility is not.

Dear Raul,
I am very happy to hear that you and your family are OK, and at the same time, I am sad for others in your country who are suffering so terribly. I will do what I can to support them.

Dear Inna, For me, the goal of the plinth is to eliminate any coloration that could emanate from a plinth.  Thus, I would not want to "hear" differences between and among different woods, unless one wood sounded clearly more neutral compared to any other.  In that regard, I have also become persuaded that Combined Layer Damping (CLD) really works.  This means using different types of materials to make a tightly bound "sandwich" where each layer dampens the whole structure and also cancels the colorations of any one particular material.  I have built 4-5 plinths from slate and/or wood, and this is the source of my thinking, based on that experience. (Like Totem said, I guess.)

Dear @lewm @pryso : Thank's to ask about this terrible and devastating earthwake that occurs after only 12 days of the other devastating earthwake of 8.2°.

Fortunatelly all my family is ok but all the people in my country are really " devastated " for it, especially the ones that lives in México city and the states of: Puebla, Morelos, Oaxaca, Chiapas, Guerrero, Edo. México y Tlaxcala.

As always México ( country ) everytime that occurs a natural disaster in any place over our planet  send different type of HELP, we are always solidaries and we show this solidarity with specific help actions.
 One of the latest time was after the Houston hurricane two weeks before the earthwakes here in México.
As a fact our President send a message to USA goverment that we can't following sending our help to Houston due that our urgent needs by the earthwakes.

Thank's too to all of you that already send me by email your concern about.

Yes, I know where the friendship belongs.

R.

Can’t remember who else used that toneam pod, i think i saw it on the system page on a’gon.

Check out halcro's page.

As to plinth building, materials of construction  do affect your results.

 Additionally a single material is most often not the best option with CLD
constrained layer construction being widely accepted.

I use teak wood, but for those who’re not stick to one turntable and one tonearm this pod is an option. Practically it’s good, i’m curious about tonearm pod for my Victor TT-101, but it is an option for those who concerned about new SP-10R plinth. Can’t remember who else used that toneam pod, i think i saw it on the system page on a’gon. Would be nice to check the drawings of this construction.

Hope to hear from Raul soon.

By the way, it should matter what kind of wood you use for the plinth. Since I belong to the school of tuners, it would be interesting to compare different woods and perhaps even different plinth shapes as well. And other details. Turntable is of course not a guitar or a violin but it is not a stone either. At this performance level experimentation is in order. I bet this Technics will not sound quite the same with Brazilian rosewood, African blackwood, ebony, kingwood etc. plinths. Not to mention the match with the arm. It's really a very complex sytem. Just give me that Studer and master tape dubs, vinyl is great for archive, though.

Lewm, of course you are right. I meant Japanese first releases, often though not always there were Japanese reissues.
Friday Night was of course recorded in San-Francisco, but I have no idea where the master tape was and is. Passion Grace&Fire is a studio album that I think was recorded in Europe or mostly in Europe. Again, I don’t know the whereabouts of the master tape.
There are two first release Japanese pro records that I need badly but cannot find anywhere: Mahavishnu Orchestra - Inner Mounting Flame- and Al di Meola - Cielo e Terra-. There is supposedly one of the latter in Russia for $150. No thank you, I don’t know what I would get and return would be very problematic. Overpriced even for the NM copy too.
Trump is not for long, records last for at least over hundred years, and audiophile spirit will live forever, or close to it.

My criterion for condition of a used LP is flawless surfaces on both sides, and they should reflect light pretty well, too.  Early on in my purchasing of used LPs, I would tolerate a scratch here and there or other signs of wear, but that proved to be a bad idea.

Inna, the term "original Japanese pro" is kind of an oxymoron.  The LP you describe was probably first issued in the USA and then re-issued by a Japanese company, albeit the Japanese re-issues are very often superior to the originals in sound quality.  Because one of our sons lives in Japan, I am fairly often there.  Prices on jazz are a bit higher than in the US, but on the other hand the condition of just about any used LP you pick up is usually mint.  The Japanese really take good care of their LPs, based on my experience purchases from audio stores in Tokyo.  Then too, such stores probably pre-screen the LPs before placing them on sale.  Anyway, I begin to understand what you guys are up against in buying used LPs.  On the other hand, we have Trump.  I'd rather pay $100 per LP and not have Trump.

The more expensive NM records are the better for me, to the point of course. Less competition. And since I need very few I won’t starve. Just today I bought from Japan a historical and groundbreaking record by McLaughlin/de Lucia/di Meola - Friday Night in San-Francisco-. Original Japanese pro. This is the best you can possibly get except master tape dub. Not NM but EX, should be very listenable, I bought from this man before. $80 including registered shipping from Japan. Big bargain. A few months ago I bought from the same man another great record by this trio - Passion Grace&Fire. Again, original Japanese pro in Mint condition, $90 including shipping. Big bargain. Digital recording and mastering but sounds so much better on Japanese vinyl. But I have $5 records too, not many though.

It depens on the musical taste, i like so called "black music", recorded and pressed in the USA in the 60s/70s, not in Europe. Shipping is $23-25 for 1 LP even if the record cost $10. Anyway, i pay for what i like. But taking shipping in count just prove that there are no more cheap records if they are not around the corner in the local recordshop or on the record fair, but they just don't have what i like. This is what my post is all about. Records that i like cost much less in the USA and prices for rare original pressings are getting higher every year on auctions (and they are not reissued). But this is just my situation with music that i like, can be different for those who're in the different music.     

Chakster, I don't understand your predicament, quite.  Over the course of time, some of the best quality LPs ever produced came to us from Europe.  In the good old days, my buddy and I used to look long and hard over here (typically at the now defunct Tower Records in downtown Washington, DC) for British, German, and even French pressings of US-made LPs or LPs that wholly originated in Europe. (Columbia recordings labeled "CBS" or Capitol recordings labeled "EMI", for two examples.)  I cannot imagine why you feel dependent upon imports of expensive used LPs from USA to Europe.  Moreover, I do not give a fig for the rarity or collectability of an LP.  The proof of the pudding for me is only in the playing quality and the musical content.  As a result, I own very few wildly valuable LPs, and I don't feel the need to accumulate them in my collection.  I would probably sell off (or more likely throw out) any $1000 LP that played badly or sounded awful.  In a few weeks, I will be attending the Capitol Audio Fest here in the DC area.  There will be a large room full of LP vendors and their wares.  I expect to load up on mint to mint minus LPs, at no more than $15 per LP or less. Yes, there will be $50 and $100 LPs on sale, too, but I resist them easily.

Guys, I am getting worried about Raul.

Anyone can share the drawings of the custom made tonearm pods for Technics EPA-500 or EPA-100mk2 tonearms?  

I am not sure that even the designers of Nak 682ZX knew how good it could sound. I use $1900 retail cables with it and also had custom transformer installed in it. And those cables outperform big time the previous $800 ones.
Anyway, to return to the Technics. I still don’t know its disadvantages compared to great or even excellent belt drive. Why would I want to pay $15k for it plus custom plinth plus tonearm when I could have, say, top of the line Pear Audio table with arm for $10k? Michael Fremer said that its midrange and overall presentation had tape like drive and flow. That’s very high of him to say it. Even with my Nottingham Spacedeck I can’t say that the dynamics is the biggest shortcoming. It could be better, sure, but with excellent recording it is pretty good, and I am the one who won’t listen to any system with not good enough dynamics and drive. In any case, I understand that it is very much a cult thing, it should sell well for $20k too.

You may not want the Dragon if you make your own recordings, Dragon is the ultimate machine with reverse for playing cassettes recorded on other decks with its continuous playback head azimuth adjustment. Dragon is not particularly reliable, costly and expensive to maintain. Just two days ago I saw 682ZX on ebay for $600 in apparently good condition, it sold immediately. Yes, decks require maintanance from time to time, every few years perhaps. I use almost exclusively Maxell Vertex cassette tapes - the very best available. They do cost at least $100 each sealed, I just have a small supply.
For recording 682ZX, ZX-9 and 1000ZXL are better than Dragon, with 682ZX being the best value. ZX-7 is excellent as well.

@inna I saw Nakamichi Dragon still makes $1500-2000 on auctions, i think i was in high school when there were available from local pioneer dealer for astronomic price in the early 90s. My own cassete deck was pioneer from the same dealer, still got it. Even cassette tapes cost a lot today.

However, I fully understand the interest in this Technics. Unfortunately, only few of us will be able to get it. Any audiophile can afford decent open reel deck. The more people are interested in it the more master tape dubs we will see, perhaps even those recordings that were never released on vinyl. And if the average price of good music on tape goes below $100, this will be within the reach for many. Most people who are not in retirement do not have much time for critical listening and they have to be selective. To have 5000 records and listen to only 500 is not something that I would do.

Those mentioned record collectors are criminals by audiophile standards.

Yeah, well, ideally you need a few sources - R2R, turntable and digital, and that's exactly what I am after, only for now it is Nakamichi 682ZX cassette deck for compilations and background music instead of Studer. Taping from friends' vinyl is a great idea.
LP shipping from Germany to the US is usually the least expensive, it is $15-$20 registered from Japan. I think, the average cost of my LPs is about $30. But if I wanted some original US or Japanese pro pressings in M- condition or some original UK, this would be over $100 on average. Still less than good master tape dubs.

@inna i got reel to reel recorder from my gradfather, i’d love to stick to the R2R tapes, but it’s impossible to find the recordings of my favorite bands, i can’t even imagine how i can find any tapes if it’s not mainstream bands and even vinyl is rare? Only if i could drive with reel to reel recorder to fellow collectors to copy their rare vinyl to my blank tapes, lol.

@lewm the shipping alone cost $22-25 for an LP from USA to Europe, everything was cheaper 10-15 years ago. I wish i could buy all my favorite 60s/70s Jazz, Funk, Soul, Latin LPs and 45s in the late 90s when it was $1-15 in set sales dealers faxed to their customers (but i was too young and in the wrong place), nowadays some rare records i’ve bought 5-7 years ago for $50 cost $500, time to sell some. But still plenty of very good records (original pressings) available for $5, but not in the local stores, so i have to add shipping cost. I know many record collectors worldwide, people with the rarest records never pay attention to equipmet at all, they can play $1000 record on worn needle (the cheapest) forever. Those rare vinyl can be VG condition, nobody cares. At the same time the musical "taste" of many audiophiles does not impress me at all.

Inna, Yes, I grossly UNDERestimated the total cost for 100 really good tapes.  Likewise, you horribly OVERestimated the cost for a like number of select LPs.  I never ever pay more than $25 per, and by far most of my LP purchases are less than $10-$12 each.  However, if you think you can be happy listening to the same few tapes over and over again, that's up to you.  I could not be happy with such a limited repertoire.  Each of us has his own predilections, but I don't see how you can rationalize R2R over vinyl on the basis of lower cost.  I see R2R as a boutique endeavor.

Unless I and others grossly misunderstood the grandiose introduction of the 10R by Technics, there is no way it will retail for less than $15K.  There is no need for them to place the price any lower than that, because they will sell all they can make, if it is as good as it looks.  But the proof of the pudding is in the pricing, ultimately, and none of us really know for sure. 

Ditto lewm's concerns for Raul and his family.  Hope all is well.

Dear All
Don’t forget that it will be 100 YEAR ANNIVERSARY REFERENCE CLASS MODEL from Technics, not just a serial model for mass market. It’s hard to believe that such model will cost less than 15k, probably higher. Maybe lower class model also will be available (who knows).

This Table will be 10K. By Cedia we shall have more goodies to discuss. Till then we must give Technics time to hand craft something amazing. And NO it has a completely re-engineered motor far more complex than the GAE. Yes it's a 10K appox price.

lewm, records can cost just as much and more. Tapes too can cost much more than $100. I am very selective and don't need too many, nor do I need to have them all right away.
$15k turntable plus tonearm, cartridge and phono is also only for the well-off. We are talking about $100k system, at least.