Unscrupulous ebay buyers

I hate eBay also.   I'm actually afraid to sell a bunch of stuff on eBay due to horror stories like this. 

As a side note, I recently got back into vinyl.  I picked up an Ortofon 2M Bronze and when I set it up it didn't sound that great.  I heard a properly set up Blue and it sounded great so I figured the Bronze would be better. 

Initially I went back to the alignment,  I think I just couldn't determine the correct overhang.   Rather than bothering my dealer , I bought a MoFi Geodisc.   

Take away here.....   it was my set up, the cartridge was perfect.    Once I dialed everything in it sounded phenomenal.   Glad I stuck to it and wasn't  " that guy" who just points the finger of blame to the seller.  

I sell locally on CL or USAM depending on the component.   Never any problems.  

@dill He refused the $300 partial refund for an item that cost $374. He used the item, SUT, to find out it was too low in volume, not my problem. The full specs were provided. So this entitled individual, despite my no return policy, looks a gift horse in the mouth. He’s lucky I’m being kind and offering him any kind of refund. Ebay has left it up to me, indicating I’m not obligated to accept any return. So, in essence you can do no research, buy something, find out it is not compatible, then return it and blame seller for your ignorance? What the he$# is wrong with people today?

Well eBay says the customer is always right, you know that from the first incident. There are other venues like AudiogoN, AudioMart and AudioAsylum. 

Unbelievably,  it has happened again! This time it involves a person (possible Asian, based on name and terrible english). He buys my SUT, brand new, and receives It in timely manner. He hooks it up, plays his cartridge through it. He messages me saying "I bought by mistake". He then complains that the sound level is too low, so it is not compatible with his cartridge. OK...well in the listing heading, it says in bold it is a 1:10 SUT!  So, how am I responsible for his so called mistake? He hits "request refund/return button. I specifically, once again, specify in the listing that there are NO Returns! These #%$#n people on Ebay are so entitled, I'm getting sick of it. Once the remaining items are sold, I'm Done!. 

I caved and offered him a partial refund (he pays return shipping)...so far, he has not responded...unreal!

I have sold over 5500 items and purchased hundreds of items since 1999 with only 1 minor problem. eBay has been great for me.

@tds3371 Thank you. Yes, I was surprised of this outcome myself, and was also unaware of a refund without effecting my account. Any how, I'll have to now relist this cartridge, albeit now slightly used. 

@audioguy85 

That worked out wonderfully - I had no idea this sort of outcome was even possible with eBay.  I wonder if this sort of "intervention" is reserved for cases where buyers exceed a set number of returns - assuming eBay, like many retail stores, has limits in place to dissuade habitual returners.  It would be interesting to see if this individual's account has been sanctioned.  I just can't imagine this type of resolution is sustainable for eBay.

The other possibility, I suppose, it that a different course of action is implemented when the seller refuses to accept the return (as you've done).  Still, I'd sure like to know where the refunded money is coming from.  Some type of seller reimbursement insurance, perhaps?  ;o)

Thanks for sharing your experience.  I'm glad it all worked out for you in the end.

@tylermunns wow, that's quite the fiasco....I've bought a few discog records, most as described, some not so much...yeah, the wording is a bit odd, but it does say I'm not responsible for any reimbursement to either buyer or eBay. I'll still keep an eye on account. 

@dill no idea where or how buyer is refunded, all i know is thus far it has not come from me! 😁

@audioguy85 That message sounds pretty unambiguous to me.
Aside from the obvious bummer of a no-longer-new cartridge and the headache, this is the best one could hope for, resolution-wise.
Unlike what so many others were saying, you don’t lose the $160, you aren’t unfairly penalized for having an unscrupulous buyer, and you may attempt to re-sell the now-used cartridge if you wish.
I only choose the highest % sellers on Discogs. I’ve had mostly good luck, but I’ve had my share of duds.

Nothing too bad overall except one.

This seller took my money and didn’t ship the CD until a week later. The vast majority of sellers ship the next day, but whatever, I’m a fairly forgiving sort.
I got the wrong CD. A full month after paying for it. Shipping-wise, this location was about as close as can be to Alaska (NW Oregon). I’ve had plenty of orders arrive much quicker from the East Coast and Europe.
The seller responded promptly when I messaged that the wrong CD was sent. OK.
A week goes by. Nothing. I message again, reminding that I still have heard nothing regarding my CD.
Another week goes by. The seller finally says he found the right CD and then went on to (I kid you not) blame the Jan. 6 riots for the delay. Not joking. His excuse was that “they’re like storming the capitol in Salem which is like two blocks from my house spin crazy around here.”
Wow. I am a very understanding and forgiving buyer (even if I may be picky about vinyl at times) but I had had enough. I didn’t want anything to do with this seller anymore. I didn’t care about the money or the CD. I just wanted to call this whole thing off. I just left negative feedback (which I had never done before some two dozen purchases in). This is, of course, when the seller started to finally try to do his job, which I just ignored. You’ve got my money, leave me alone. You suck.
Somehow the seller was able to expunge my negative feedback.
Cool.

Well, I have never heard of that before and I wonder where the refund funds came from, hope it all works out for you.

@tylermunns thank you, i do hope someone got something usefull from all this. You just never know who is buying your stuff, despite him having 100% pos feedback....well so do I! 100% pos since 2004.....

@dill here is the message from Ebay. Take it as you may, maybe I’m reading into it or assuming, But from the way it reads, I’m not affected. I believe the money comes from their ebay satisfaction guarantee, who knows...

I have to say, this has been one of the most informative threads I’ve read on this site. 
I’m sorry it was borne of such an unfortunate incident.  
I think the OP caused some valuable things to be shared, however.

"So, in essence I keep the money"

- Sorry, that is not going to happen, eBay will debit your bank account that is linked to your eBay account. Otherwise, where does the refund money come from?

There are a**h**** on both sides. Glad to see the pendulum swing(paypal/ebay) towards the buyers side. Multiple times I have caught the seller making false claims about age and condition. That is why I will only deal with respected dealers I don't want to waste time with side hustlers.

Well, this has come to a close. The buyer opened a case today, and Ebay took very little time to review it. They decided to close the case and issue the buyer a full refund. However, I was not impacted whatsoever, as no money was removed from my account and I got the cartridge back. So, in essence I keep the money and can relist the cartridge, albeit as slightly used. 

 audioguy85, it would behoove to check out eBay's return policy for buyers. Reasons for return include "didn't like it", "changed my mind" and "found a cheaper price" among others. Doesn't matter how many times you say NO RETURNS, they can return it anyway. I have 2000+ transactions and experienced your situation more than once. I have received returns of VG albums where I shipped a near mint one, I now 'mark' my product for identification purposes. eBay doesn't care. There is a way to amend the value of the returned item, you may possibly recoup some of your loss. However, you agree to these terms to be able to sell there. They do expect sellers to be a business, I was told "like Target or Walmart". Stop fighting it, it's a losing cause. I accept their policies for the ability to sell to their world-wide audience. Put on a nice relaxing LP, pour a libation and let it go. That will be the end result anyway. AB    

Another wise thing to do is that when you sell an item Google the address.  There are certain Hub addresses that scammers use.  I am not sure if they are psuedo PO boxes or what.  See here for one such explanation... 

Years ago a friend of mine shipped a VCR on Ebay.  The buyer took pictures of a box with a brick in it.  Said he was ripped off by the seller.  Guess who got screwed? 

I never sell big $$ items on Ebay.  As an added negative their fees are just to crazy high anyway.

The Buyer Protection is the precedent over all sellers wants.

The only safeguard for the Seller is a Bank Transfer or Cash on Collection Payment.

I only sell using this as the Payment Method, a buyer takes a longer time to come forward but I have never not sold.

What I don't do is encourage is the mis-use of the Buyer Protection Scheme that can be put in place.

The methods for a certain type of Buyer to create a mis-use seemingly grows daily.

I suspect from drawing on known of experiences others have had to endure, that your Cart' sent,  is not the one being returned, and the Buyer will be remunerated for their efforts along the way.

Ebay has a lot to answer for with this as the too regularly seen outcome of their Protection methods. 

The Protection Period strangely, covers period that will enable a Holiday or Refurbishment to take place, the method almost works as a Free Hire Period, or Free Parts Donor Model for a Buyer.

Only a Bank Transfer or Cash on Collection will protect the seller from such a intention for their goods.   

OP - Here’s another thing to consider - although the buyer sent it back without opening a case, he may still be able to open a case of “did not match description.”  My guess is that if you don’t refund him, he will open one, whether you send it back or not.  Hold on to that cartridge until it’s resolved!

I understand your frustration, however DO NOT send it back to him unless eBay instructs you to do so, they won't. Your account from eBay will be debited the refund amount. You have come across an a**hole buyer, it happens. I would list it here, AudioMart or Audio Asylum Trader as an open box as a next to new cartridge with less than 5 hours. Check the cantilever with a loupe to make sure it is straight and the diamond is intact.

@dill yes, i opened it up and had a look, appears same, but i mean they all do...it was new. Does not appear damaged, but i cannot be certain without first mounting/aligning it and listening etc, which I don’t have time for. It does not appear as though he followed proper channels to return. There is seemingly no case opened and no ebay interaction. I have already previously messaged him, indicating that should it be returned, I would refuse it and send it back. Whether I follow through or not has not been decided...

Did you open it up to see if it the same one you sent him? Take photos as you open the box and of everything you discover also look for damage.

Well, he sent it back, it arrived at my door today. Not sure what to do about it now. Wait and see If ebay deducts money from my account or send it right back, try and re-sell as used, or throw it in trash? He is still not getting a refund if I can help it, as I advised him to Not send it back.

This guy is very crafty....he left me positive feedback, yet does not say anything positive. He ends his feedback indicating that he sent the item back. He somehow thinks that because he did not leave negative feedback, that this will influence me to refund him his money and accept a return. 

@tony1954 I notice that when I buy used appliance parts on eBay, they are all marked by the seller.  Obviously they have been scammed before where the buyer sends them back their original broken part for a refund.

OP - Boy, if you get back the cartridge, I sure would not send it back to the buyer.  You are headed on a course where you could lose your money and the cartridge.  The system is not under your control, so you can’t force an outcome. Hold on to the cartridge and see how it plays out.  If you arrive at a point where eBay says you are keeping the buyers money, then you can send it back to him.

@riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook 

I suspect you're correct.  I've never had to personally exercise this option - except in the case where my credit card account was obviously breached.  Of course, this type of fraud (sadly) seems to occur on a more regular basis.

@audioguy85 

Sorry for the sitch you find yourself in.

You earlier stated that the buyer thought the cartridge "too warm".  My bet is on the SO who "How much did that f'ing cost! @#(*$##@$(@!. And then too warm turned into too HOT.

I know this was of no help to you....just a thought.

Regards,

barts

#TDS3371

If the guy files a claim with his CC company he can bypass EBAY and Paypal. You dont have to fret about any decisions from EBAY/PAYPAL cause you almost always win with your CC company.  If you dont....change your Credit Card.  Nobody has power over your CC company

@tds3371 yes, I believe that is what he did. He claims ebay told him to return it, which is untrue. I received a message from Ebay indicating that buyer requested a return.  Ebay gave me the option to accept or decline the return. I elected to decline it. I have not heard from Ebay since. It is he that sent a picture to me of the cartridge all boxed up with his own return label. He said in quotes " on the way!"....meaning im returning it no matter what...so i informed him in bold, there are no returns....and i said that i woukd not accept the package and would return it back to him. We shall see i guess.....

BTW 

What cartridge did u sell him ?

Maybe someone here might be interested if you have to refund the money ?

If the buyer bypasses the eBay return process - and sends the item back to you *without* invoking a formal return - I don't believe you're under any formal obligation to make a refund:  It's not an "official" return and, hence, not subject to eBay intervention.  Basically, if they don't follow the exact return process (via eBay), they're on their own.  eBay is likely to tell them as much.

Thanks again to all of you for responding to my post. All of you have provided some great points and input. I'll keep you apprised of the final outcome....

Ebay is a gamble.

Exposes your items as a seller to countless more potential buyers than most other sites, however, opens the door for countless more scams as well. That along with Ebay's business practices keeps me from selling or buying anything there.

Just don't do it.

Also you won't be able to leave neg FB once the deal is done

If he sends it back to you your good keep the money and the cart. He's doing it all wrong. He would have to open a case against you and you would have to except the return and provide him with a return shipping label. Once you receive the item you then refund which eBay already has your fees on hold. Been there done that. 

I do know this is a fact that if the buyer ask for a return and you don’t grant it within 10 days EBay may suck the funds out of your eBay connected account to force a refund.  You may want to take measures at your eBay connected account by blocking any activity from eBay or close the account.  Sounds like a large value transaction so be proactive with your bank 

Good luck Willy-T

Ditto what @riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook states.

This is from eBay:

Tip
Even if you specify “no returns accepted,” under the eBay Money Back Guarantee, the buyer can still return an item if it doesn’t match the listing description.

@audioguy85 all the buyer has to present to eBay is your cartridge didn't match the description. Buyers like these are very creative and will word their complaint in such a way eBay may likely approve the return. This is based on experience (+1950 transactions there)

I read what you wrote. There isnt any protection against what happened to you. Think I have at least 30K Feedback on EBAY since 1998...and probably have done at least twice that amount of business on the site since half the people dont leave feedback.  Its the way it is so you have to live with the rules that are in place....fair or not....otherwise choose some other avenue to unload your stuff.  Thats all Im saying.  Ive been screwed over COUNTLESS numbers of times selling Music Industry Gold and Platinum records.  Clowns in Europe expecting 50 year old awards to not have a mark on the frame or plexiglass when they receive them. Then filing complaints and I eat $300 in shipping charges.  I understand your frustration believe me.  BUYERS REMORSE is a Bitch!!!

@riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook 

The guy opened the cartridge, installed it and played records. Said he did not like the sound of it as its too warm. This is in no way warrants a return or a refund. He rendered my brand new cartridge as now used, and for all I know possibly mishandled or damaged. There has to be some rules against returning something for frivolous reasons. 

@tds3371 

I was shocked down to my boots when I read your post:

"they deal directly with the buyer's credit card and the seller's bank account (which, as a seller, you were required to give them access to). This allows eBay to essentially enact a refund without your consent (they call this "buyer protection.")."

We should never divulge our bank account details to anyone and empower them to operate our account.  This is the basis of all scams.  Anyone at eBay can transfer money out of our account as a criminal act.  If this happens, our banks will not refund us for the loss because we revealed out bank details, which we are specifically told not to do.

DON'T DO IT

As others have stated there is no such thing as NO RETURNS. That Seller BS hasnt worked in probably 15 years now.

  If I purchase something on EBAY and its defective/not as advertised etc I dont even bother contacting EBAY or Paypal.  I go to my Credit Card company who has authority over EBAY/Paypal.  I get my money credited IMMEDIATELY and dont have to wait 30 days or whatever for Paypal to make a decision.  Always always always pay with a Credit Card and dont mess with the other 2 services if things go south.  You'll save yourself a ton of headaches doing all your transactions this way. Sorry the OP's transaction didnt go well but thats the sandbox you're playing in.  Sell elsewhere if you dont like the rules

@nonoise 

I had that happen to me once, but I didn't realize it happened until after I took the pair of speakers back. Buyer insisted that one of the tweeters was blown, which I know it wasn't. But when I checked, damned if the tweeter wasn't blown.

Nowadays I put a subtle identifying mark on whatever I am selling, just in case.

@wolfie62 You are correct that ”I don’t like it” is not the same as “not as described.”  But all the buyer has to say is that it isn’t working properly and he will automatically be given a return authorization.  That apparently is what happened here, because the OP says the item is now marked ‘Returned.’  The OP will be getting it back soon, so there’s not much room left for discussion with eBay.  The buyer will get all of his money back.  eBay is not going to use their money to compensate the OP.  eBay doesn’t have the capacity to evaluate if an item isn’t working right.  THEORETICALLY, a brand new sealed cartridge when opened and used could have a defect - right?  I’m not saying it’s likely or happened in this case, but am just pointing out that eBay doesn’t evaluate that level of detail.

For the purpose of looking at this in another direction - if a seller had a cartridge that looked brand new, but was defective, and sold it on eBay - what happens when the buyer tries out the cartridge?  He has no ability to prove that it was bad when he received it.  So in this sense, eBay always finds in favor of the buyer.  

It can even become worse for sellers.  Such as damaging an item in a way that doesn’t show up on the original photographs.  Hopefully the OP gets it back in good shape.

@ashoka  As far as PayPal, they follow the same system of supporting the buyer.  There’s no interest in delving issues concerning defects, although you might better argue your case where there is VERY CLEAR photographic proof supporting your position.

All of these procedures are automated.  Perhaps very expensive items over a certain amount are handled differently.  But I have never sold those types of products on eBay.

What proof you have?  1. product acquired from manufacturer. sealed box 2. packing video. 3. Your seller positive score for years. Paypal will be biased towards buyer.

Got a stylus in today from an eBay purchase. Old stylus for a 1960 Empire 108 (selling for $400+ now!). When I looked at the stylus using a 25x loupe, there was NO tip on the cantilever! Just an empty hole. I took pics. Sent to the seller. He gave me a refund. But I didn’t play it. I inspected it upon receipt and immediately notified the seller. 
 

A subjective judgement of “I don’t like it” after purchase is not a malfunction, nor “not as described.”

“No returns” on eBay does not apply if the buyer claims the item isn’t working or described properly.

‘EBay does not inspect items claimed as such and takes the buyers word.  They will immediately allow the buyer to print a return label charged to you.

Essentially, eBay allows any sale to be voided, the seller gets the item back, the buyer gets all of his money back and the seller pays shipping both ways.  It can happen on virtually any sale on eBay.  Kind of “no harm/no foul” only the seller eats shipping and any damage/misuse/etc. to the item.

If you refuse to accept the cartridge back, the buyer will get the cartridge AND all his money back.  You might even get charged a 3rd time for shipping it back.  That would REALLY piss you off!  Take it back and sell it locally to reduce your loss.

‘Despite all this, for me it is rare to have a buyer do this, but it has happened to me.  That’s just part of selling on eBay.  (It works great if you’re a buyer.)  It can get really expensive for items that cost a lot to ship.  So I am not doing those on eBay.