Lew, are you saying that you was able to get the Lenco dialed in with the Walker to allow no drift with the Timeline. |
Sarcher30: "Unfortunately bringing the motor closer to the platter also brings it closer to the cartridge as well. Which on the TT's I have had with that arrangement caused hum on most of my cartrides. There may be some TT's that sheild the motor well enough to pull it off." Perhaps you can try grounding the motor housing? _______ |
Lewm, The Artemis is an interesting design. I have not heard one yet.
I had hum caused by the motor on a VPI Classic and a LP12. The Classic's motor is on the front left. Maybe if the motor was placed in the rear it would have been better. The LP12 had the motor and power supply under the platter. Could be if I had an outboard PS like a Lingo it would solve the hum. I was not using a Grado. I am sure there are TT designs that have the motor close that don't have hum issues. Just a matter of being well designed.
I have a SP10 mk2a now and experience no hum with the same carts. Sorry if all of this is off the topic of this thread. |
Thanks, Dev. I was just joking, but your post does move me closer to getting a timeline just to satisfy my curiosity.
And when I'm unhappy with the results (I pessimistically predict), I'll wish I had Lewm's skills or at least easy access to someone with similar skills. |
Dear Uru, I am not the font of all knowledge on this subject, hardly. But what you suggest does seem logical; the speed of a tt may deliberately be set to slightly fast with no load, so that it then achieves perfect speed with the load of stylus drag. But in principle, I would prefer a motor or drive system that is robust enough to maintain proper speed under all conditions, because the load of stylus drag is varying all the time due to the groove modulations and also in relation to the distance of the stylus tip from the spindle. It would therefore be impossible to know in advance and for all LPs "how fast" is fast enough to result in correct speed in the presence of stylus drag. So, IMO, this is where torque, the compliance of the drive system, the speed corrective capacity of the drive electronics, etc, come into play. |
Lewm,
Have been reading this for awhile and want to ask a question while throwing in another variable.
The SME, I have the SME 10, is set for Sumiko Celebration, which I have, other turntables use other stylus makers or Sumiko for their voicing.
Has any one tried to see if the degree or speed that the turntable is off is neutralized when the stylus is lowered and its drag can be added to the equation? IOW is the difference from perfect speed via the timeline cancelled once the arm/stylus is lowered and music is playing? |
Dev,
The Lenco is pretty near infinitely adjustable, as the idler wheel is driven by a tapered shaft that is an extension of the rotor of the motor. So, if the Lenco was off, it simply needed to be adjusted by moving the idler wheel with respect to the variable circumference of the drive shaft. This is how Lenco attains the 3 speeds (33, 45, and 78 rpm). Rather than fiddle with the idler wheel, I made fine adjustments to the speed of my Lenco via my Walker Motor Controller. As to the SP10 MkII, Hiho got it right. Although there is no user accessible speed adjustment, the proper set-up of the outboard power supply WILL result in exact correct platter speed. If the one you tested was not spot-on, then the tt needed some TLC, is all.
Sarcher,
You make a valid point about the fact that if you move the motor pulley close to the platter, the belt will have a smaller area of contact with the drive pulley than when the platter is distant from the pulley. I was merely commenting that both SME and Nottingham recommend proximity of the two. It is not as good a solution as using a capstan, a la the Artemis tt.
As to the question of hum, I am very surprised to read that you have a problem with hum when the motor is close to the platter on whatever turntable. In most cases the motor and its pulley can be placed or is permanently installed at the left rear corner of the plinth such that the cartridge never gets closer than 7 or 8 inches from the motor (half the diameter of an LP plus half the diameter of the label). I don't know of any cartridge that should be THAT sensitive to the EMI or RFI put out by a typical BD motor. The Lenco motor is right under its platter, and I have never ever heard an issue with induced hum. It is said that Grado cartridges are or were unusually hum-sensitive; perhaps you use a Grado. (I have a Grado TLZ and never had a hum problem with it, however.)
And finally, all this chat is still overlooking what I thought was the real issue: speed variation due to stylus drag. None of the above mentioned observations really tell us anything about that. Unless sensitivity to stylus drag is gross, the Timeline may not reveal it. I guess if the speed is "off" with no load, it is unlikely to be stable with a load, but maybe not. One possible benefit of intentional viscous drag or the "eddy current brake" used on the Garrard 301/401 I think would be increased speed stability in the face of stylus drag, a very good way to deal with it. |
In my experience, belt drive TT's with AC moters with ample torque and low friction fair better than DC motor driven TT's all else being equal. Perhaps you should listen to a good DD turntable with a coreless DC servo-controlled motor alongside you Raven AC-2 as I have? No real comparison actually........ Our dear friend Lew wanted a moratorium on discussions of the merits of turntable drive types but I think that's difficult when it comes to the subject of speed consistency and accuracy? We have heard of the supposedly superb accuracy of some belt-drive turntables according to the Timeline but as yet we have seen no real evidence? Is someone able to upload a clip of one of these belt-drives with the Timeline....onto YouTube? Perhaps you Andrew? |
I agree with Atmasphere. Turntables with excellent soundstaging (and resolution of fine detail, dynamics and bass detail)are signtaures of TT's with excellent speed control.
In my experience, belt drive TT's with AC moters with ample torque and low friction fair better than DC motor driven TT's all else being equal. I think one way to improve a DC motor driven TT is to increase the mass of the platter with good torque. I suspect that is one reason the Micro Seiki's do well and why the addition of acrylic platters on top of the gunmetal sound better.
Andrew |
Banquo363,
yes unfortuantly. I was told he is sending it to someone to correct which isn't suppose to be too hard. I read from someone else whom posted prior on the old NVS posting in relation to "DD" issues.
Look at this being a positive learning experience and not negtive, no need to be upset.
If your table is off then you can address such, if it is off slightly I would be shocked if you can hear such anyways.
End of the day it's all about listening to music. |
Dev: "I tried it on a "DD" SP10 MK2 and it was off, no way to correct like the MK3 offers speed adjustments so the owner has to send it in." I believe there are trim-pots inside the chassis that can vary the speed minimally but I just don't know which ones. Maybe the trim-pots are for other functions. I don't have my SP-10mk2 or the manual anymore to verify that. Perhaps other more knowledgeable owners can comment on this. Good luck. ______ |
I tried it on a "DD" SP10 MK2 and it was off, no way to correct like the MK3 offers speed adjustments so the owner has to send it in. Not what I wanted to read. I hate this thread. Seriously: did the built-in strobe of that particular sp10 show that it was holding speed? And the timeline showed differently? |
Good point Ketchup. The belt is more likely to slip on the capsan than the platter. Of course if it uses a sub platter that problem is reduced. |
Unfortunately bringing the motor closer to the platter also brings it closer to the cartridge as well. It also results in less contact between the belt and the motor pulley. That seems like a bad idea because there's already so little contact there. Right? |
The comment about using viscous drag or friction to dampen platter oscillations on bd tt's struck me. I do my own maintenance on my Sota tt. It is easy enough to disassemble the platter, clean and relube the spindle and bearing. I let it go for a few years and then about two years ago, I got around to pulling it apart and relubing it. I noted then that the tt sounded better, but I didn't really understand why. So now I clean and relube it every year. Some other Sota owners have also mentioned they found some synthetic lubes make it sound better than other lubes. I tried some synthetic lube last Fall and didn't notice a big difference in sound myself. The synthetic lube is very tacky and definitely added drag to the spindle compared to the lithium grease that I was using. Since my speed is pretty rock solid, I guess the drag is not too high. |
Unfortunately bringing the motor closer to the platter also brings it closer to the cartridge as well. Which on the TT's I have had with that arrangement caused hum on most of my cartrides. There may be some TT's that sheild the motor well enough to pull it off. |
Hi Lewm,
but using a mylar belt has it's own issues. Static, dust attracts to it, they only last so long before slippage occurs. You have to spend some time makeing them up all the time etc.
Sorry but I just want to listen to music and not be dealing with that.
I also tried on a Lenco, won't mention the seller but it was also off. I inquired about this and basically got back a answer that it's fairly close. hummm
I tried it on a "DD" SP10 MK2 and it was off, no way to correct like the MK3 offers speed adjustments so the owner has to send it in.
Albert I had asked you about your NVS, I'm sure you have checked it.
Can you tell us the results. |
Same model as yours which was also too fast ironically, the other table was a 30/2 and was too slow but when we put it on 45 too fast.
Owners were not very happy! specially when they thought it was set up correctly.
What do you do if you have no adjustments or worse the adjustments still don't allow you to get it accurate?
Not one table that I have tried has been spot on including my own with both speeds initially, some were really bad, mine wasn't but I learned that most could not be corrected either, mine was so I was lucky.
This TimeLine tool has assisted providing information that using other tools to set-up really to me are misleading but worse that manufactures are not paying close enough attention building their products.
So mine being off slightly, once I got it spot on I really could not hear nor feel the difference but on others I most defiantly could hear improvements if they were off badly so this is a postive tool to use and will be used in the future by me.
I recently went into a store whom I know the owner but will not mention the name and has some mighty exspensive tables and not one was spot on, he basically dismissed the use of the TimeLine saying they have all been set-up properly blah! blah!
I asked him if he did not mind to allow me to get one set-up using the TimeLine and then have a listen afterwards, it's not hard to do if there is a fairly accurate fine speed adjustment allowing such but the table also must be capable of doing such and this table was pretty darn close in the end but originally off pretty bad and this room we are talking big dollars.
I was told the rep was by the week prior and saying how sweet things sounded, humm!
When we were in the room he was tapping his foot and I said straight up are you for real, sorry but I'm not feeling it and this is a pce when I play at home my whole body gets into it and I just want to get up and boogie.
No way would it have me opening up my wallet but after using the TimeLine the sound was now locked in, the focus was way better, all arround just sounded different in a positive manner and just felt better if you know what I mean in a good way.
He came into the room and without even sitting down said he was already experiencing the difference so guess who will be getting a TimeLine to use.
Still did not leave me feeling the way I expressed above listening in my own place.
Personally I feel acurate table speed should be the basics of a table design, the foundation and then you go from there. If you can't get this right well ... I feel something is just wrong. |
Hi Ralph, Belt drive turntables differ from one other in belt compliance and platter moment of inertia, so their oscillation wow patterns differ. That explains in part why belt drive turntables sound so different from one another in pace and rhythm, in steadiness of pitch, and in solidity of bass (bass notes last longer, so they require a longer sustain of turntable pitch accuracy to sound straight and massively impactive, rather than warbly, wobbly, and weak).
Can the belt drive designer reduce or damp the unwanted oscillations between platter and belt? In principle yes, but in practice it's tricky to execute. In principle, what's required is simply the addition of some resistive damping. This would damp the reactive LC tank circuit of belt and platter so it would no longer oscillate.
A common form of resistive damping is friction. Thus, if a knowledgeable turntable designer wants better speed constancy, he might well consider intentionally adding some friction to his rotating platter. It's worth noting that some Swiss and German engineers are so justifiably proud of their ability to produce nearly frictionless bearings that they cannot bring themselves to make turntables with high friction. As a result, the Thorens turntables exhibit some of the most spectacularly low friction bearings on the planet, and will spin seemingly forever (with the belt removed); but, at the same time they also exhibit some of the worst audible wow, in part because there is, as a matter of engineering pride, almost no resistive damping for the oscillating reactive tank circuit.
What might be useful ways to introduce friction? The fit and/or finish between platter spindle and well could be made poor, instead of smooth and polished. But this would be causing friction via crude irregularities, like two meshing mountain ranges, rubbing each other. The crude irregularities of these two mountain ranges rubbing together would cause unwanted speed irregularities (snags and letting gos), as well as unwanted vibrational rumble (the earthquake rumble of each letting go after each snag). So that tactic is out.
One useable tactic is to introduce a viscous fluid in the bearing, which provides friction in a liquid hence smooth form. This can be especially effective if the spindle is made in a larger than normal diameter, so that the viscous fluid has a larger moment arm (more leverage) with which to work its resistive magic (as in the Linn Sondek). The use of viscous fluid for resistively damping platter rotation can also be enhanced by various helical screw kinds of arrangements, which force the fluid to do extra work in opposing the rotation of the platter (as in the turntables from Max Townshend). It's no accident that these two brands have the best reputation among belt drive turntables for pace and rhythm, solid bass, and master-tape-like clarity. It's because both these designs recognize that belt drive, far from being a simple Hail Mary solution, brings with it new problems that must be addressed, and that overcoming the problem of speed constancy requires at least the addition of a fourth element, resistive damping, to the three usual elements of a belt drive turntable. That's a quote from Peter Moncrief's incisive article about turntable speed control. As also described in his article....is the fact that a 'stretchy' rubber belt can iron out the 'pulses' of a poled motor whereas if a non-compliant tight thread were employed........we're back to transferring that cogging into the platter? |
The concept of "belt creep" and what to do about it is not mine intellectually. This phenomenon was first described to me and to anyone else who read it by Mark Kelly. Mark played at designing a bd tt to combat it. The Artemis is a less complex solution compared to Mark's, IIRC. But your SME is well designed, Peter, if it places the motor pulley as close as possible to the platter's edge. Notts recommend this also. That also is a way to maximize the contact between platter and belt. You BD guys should look for posts by Doug Deacon on "tape drive". Doug uses a specific kind of recording tape which he then treats chemically to make one side rough, so it has traction on the platter. Conceptually, this should be better than string, IMO. Reality is sometimes different from concept, however. But Doug claims excellent results with his Galibier turntable. |
Hello Dev,
Yes, I had read that now deleted NVS thread, but I forgot about your particular post. Do you remember how far off the speed was for each of the tables?
According to my KAB strobe, my SME is 0.18% fast, as determined by the fact that four (4) "33" numbers drift out of the red strobe light during a 1 minute test. This was while a record was playing. Unfortunately, my SME motor controller does not have a speed adjustment, so I change belts after about one year and that reduces the error.
I would guess that if you found one SME table too fast and the other too slow that the belts were probably stretched to different degrees. Were these models with adjustable speed on their controllers? If so, did you try to adjust the speed on the controllers to get a more accurate speed? Also, did you listen to each to see if you could hear a difference? |
Hi Peterayer,
I had mentioned in the NVS thread I had tested two and both were off. Using the same TimeLine it was found one was too fast and another was too slow. |
Lewm,
That is a good point about belt contact with the platter. My SME 10 has about one inch of exposed/free belt before and after the motor pulley leaving the vast majority of the belt in contact with the platter. This is in great contrast to some other designs which have a motor on a remote platform 9" or more away from the record platter. Tables like the Walker, the Raven and the Micro Seiki all have a lot of exposed/free belt which is why some owners have switched to thread, I think.
I have not tried the Timeline on my SME or read of anyone else doing so, but the SME tables have a reputation for having pretty constant speed stability and accuracy.
I started this thread a while ago, and I appreciate all of the contributions to it. I have learned a lot. Thank you to all those who have participated. |
Halcro - great game eh. Looks like Dokovich has shown the others how to beat Nadal - ie hard and flat if they can maintain it.
Re the bearing, it's a bit of a red herring - I only meant to communicate that in the case of the Final there is high inertia such that if the motor is turned off and the belt/thread is still connected the platter will drive the motor/pulley for a few seconds.
Lewm's capstan is a good observation, the thing that interested me was that if you add a capstan and get more belt/thread on the pulley & platter it will spread the side loading on the bearings of the motor & platter. This would potentially reduce motor bearing wear. |
Dear Halcro: You always can try a different thread's build material and see/hear what happen.
regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
There are a couple of different bearings used in this table, the latest version being different and older versions not upgradable. Well you could but you would also need a new platter.
The bearing in the BK has what looks like a ball bearing on the top. |
Halcro, I can't think of a reason for a bearing to provide drag in a turntable- that seems like a Bad Idea to me. Are you sure the bearing is OK? What style bearing is in the Raven? I remember reading about it some time ago... something about it being oil-less or not having an oil reservoir or something like that. Halcro? |
Use of a capstan, etc, or any strategy that increases the area of contact between the belt and the platter is a good way to combat "belt creep", the bete noir of belt-drive tt's. This is why I am skeptical about 2- and 3-motor arrangements; of necessity, the platter to belt contact area is reduced in both cases, even compared to conventional single-motor arrangements. This is also why I really like the Artemis SA1 turntable, in principle. (Never heard it.) It uses a single motor and a capstan so that the belt (looks like tape) is nearly completely in contact with the circumference of the platter.
Dare I say that a device like the KAB might be superior to the Timeline for detection of very transient deviations in speed? OK. I said it. |
The platter also does not keep rotating very far after the motors are switched off indicating perhaps a bearing designed for friction so that the motors have a load against which to pull? Halcro, I can't think of a reason for a bearing to provide drag in a turntable- that seems like a Bad Idea to me. Are you sure the bearing is OK? |
Dear Dover: About thread/high mass platter my AS are not really high mass ( I think are around 12-14kg ) and works really fine with thread and the RX500 performs good as well. Yes, maybe different TT design works different but I can't see very clear the whole reasons about if there are some reasons.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Halcro, great info and thanks for sharing. What you have mentioned has left me scratching my head and always learning.
I know "D" is a little occupied presently but hop he will be able to assist adding to this.
What Tony has mentioned above is another perspective but in referrence to out of round pulley or platter doesn't make any sense to me in relation to yours specially reading what you have experienced.
You have three motors so why not do what I had mention earlier in one of my previous threads.
Place one motor off to the left using your thread and then place another motor off to the right using a separate thread attached but only have one motor working, this will do what Dover mentions above acting as a flywheel and balancing the platter.
When I had my AC3 and spun the platter with no pulley attached it would revolve many times but did slow down fairly quickly but with my Black Knight it's appears to be totally different. Spins allot easier initially and keeps spinning consistantly for a lot longer time prior to actual slowing down, to me this was very interesting in a positive way. |
Thanks Tony,
A perceptive and illuminating commentary :^) |
The Timeline is giving you one data point per rotation. So what is happening in between those 1.8 second pulses? Your ears just told you something more is happening than just precise timing of the platter. It is like peeking into the room and everytime you see the cat sleeping, but still the canary disappears. The timeline is giving only one dimension of speed control- ie. timing of the rotation period. What is happening during the rotation? The platter could be cogging, it could be wobbling or even have Wow due to an out of round pulley or out of round platter OD.
Beyond the speed accuracy measured by the timeline, as someone else mentioned, speed precision is also important. That means how well does the platter hold 33 1/3 during the entire rotation. This has to be measured either with a test record or with a precision tachometer. The best instrument might just be our ears. Test records have limitations- the accuracy of the center hole in records causes them to be at least one order of magnitude worse than most turntables. (Two order of magnitudes worse than Halcro's DD turntable.) |
Just watching Berdych take the first set against Rafa in a tie-breaker in the Australian Open.
This looks like a possible match to be 'bottled'?
Dear Geoch & Dover,
Thanks for the explanations.
The Raven belt does have a smooth side and a 'coarse' side designed to grip the platter.
The platter also does not keep rotating very far after the motors are switched off indicating perhaps a bearing designed for friction so that the motors have a load against which to pull?
The thread is stretched tight.....but the side of the platter material is smooth and slippery.....although the shiny heavy metal platters of the big Micros would seem to be equally slippery?
So there may not be a satisfactory way to get the Raven to work with a thread drive?
What I still don't understand is.......accepting the thread slippage.......how does the Timeline indicate constant speed? |
Halcro, it is a tragicomedy, perhaps the brass and woodwinds are just not getting on with the stringed instruments.
Could be any number of reasons, but most thread drives are designed with high mass platters and very small concave pulleys. I have the Final set up such that there is no slippage with the silk thread, ie quite taut, and if I turn the motor off the platter will drive the motor/pulley quite easily for a while. I still have concerns about how well the 2 motors on the Raven are synchronised. As you have highlighted our ears are better than many measuring instruments. If the thread is taut it is more direct coupled than a rubber belt which could magnify motor drive issues. Purely conjecture of course. |
Dear Halcro, the mass is not enough for the thread to work properly. You must add a flywheel. The grip of the belt beats it's elasticity in this particular arrangement and it would be even better if you can manage to put a capstan at the pulling side of the motor in order to increase this characteristic once your set-up is better served by this grip than the thead's slippage. I've witnessed the same action by placing a thread on my 24 kgr platter. Here the reason was not only the improper mass but also the very weak motor. And the limited acceptance of a round belt only, left me without opportunities to fix anything. (Not that I care any more about that TT. I'm only sharing some tweeks of the past). Perhaps Daniel can share his experience ? |
Sometimes there is simply no substitute for the ears?
I had recently switched from the original rubber belt of the Raven AC-2.....to a thread drive.
There was little difference in the speed consistency as shown by the Timeline......but initially....to my ears.....there seemed to be an improvement in the sound?
Yesterday.....I was sitting back comfortably listening to the ballet music fom Le Cid by Massenet conducted by Louis Fremaux on Klavier Records.
In the third movement 'Catalane-Madriene'......when the French horn and the flute begin their delicate interplay........I could clearly hear some 'wow'...particularly with the flute warbling rather frighteningly?
I quickly switched the disc to the Victor TT-101 where there was nothing but pure joyous breathy consistency.
So I placed the Timeline on the Raven and saw that it appeared as consistent as it previously had.
I replayed the Madriene and re-heard the 'warble'.
I switched the rubber belt back in and re-set the speed according to the Timeline.
No more 'warble'.......?
If anyone has some theory to explain this phenomenon........I would love to hear it?
For the moment......the belt is back on the Raven......but my trust is firmly with the TT-101 :^) |
I actually re-heated my morning coffee by placing it squarely in line with a laser beam from the Timeline whilst it was rotating on my Mk3 which was playing a Wagnerian opera using an old Decca spherical stylus cartridge that tracks at 4 gm..... Just kidding about the Wagner. I hold with Mark Twain who said, "Wagner is not as bad as it sounds". (Well, I mentioned cognac, did I not?)
But I now understand Henry more fully. |
Albert Porter/Halcro
Bit slow today, so I had a drink, Steinlager Pure Blond, much clearer now. Cheers... |
Ketchup: "Hiho, I'm not sure how to take that." Sorry, Ketchup. Your post was legit but cynicism got the better of me. My initial reaction was that we audiophiles really like to flatter ourselves and why would any Japanese engineers who worked for these corporate giants would waste time on a forum like this and most of them likely not fluent in English, which Lespier alluded to. Knowing how engineers sneer at and dismiss audiophiles, and I knew quite a few, I am skeptical they would ever respond to forums like this. Again, your post and question was totally legitimate and I sure hope we will get a response from these pioneering engineers one day. ______ |
Hi Dover,
It's a running joke between Lew and me.
Albert got it.......so did Hiho :^) |
Dover, a laugh is all you need.
_______
|
Dover,
A drink is cheaper than a shrink, hope you enjoy the joke along with me :^). |
Albertporter,
This is astonishing, you are saying that every Timeline shipped is calibrated to your SP10mk3.
So if your SP10mk3 is out all Timelines shipped could be out.
Didn't you just "prove" that after calibrating the Timeline to your SP10mk3 that this then proves the Timeline is accurate because your SP10mk3 gives the same result when retested.
I think I need a drink.... or a shrink. |
01-22-12: Halcro
Good news Lew,
But are you sure the Timeline is accurate? :^) I can answer for Lew, I test each and every Sutherland Timeline by putting them on my MK3. If the Timeline holds true and steady for an entire side of a heavily modulated LP, it passes and is ready to be shipped to the waiting customer ( :^D ) |
Good news Lew,
But are you sure the Timeline is accurate? :^) |
Hi Albert,
when you say the MK3 is the only one tested with zero movement is that also making reference to the NVS you also own currently?
You did own the one NVS prior which you were listening to for a while and statrted hearing noises 'bearing" and sent it back to be fixed, you know what I mean.
I'm not trying to bring up past issues but just curious. |
01-22-12: Lewm
We interrupt this program for one comment on tt speed accuracy: For those of you who have been holding your breath for a report on the speed accuracy of my SP10 Mk3, results are in: Perfect! Same for me, in fact the MK3 is the only turntable we have tested so far that has zero movement. 01-22-12: Ketchup
Lewm,
Congratulations. Is that with the stylus in the groove? In my case no movement either way. In fact, I can play an LP all the way through, 33 or 45 speed and the Timeline laser is still beaming at the same spot on the wall when I cue up the arm at the end. |
Dear Geoch, I agree totally with your 'whealty assumption'
reg. the ''exclusive TT's''. The prices are 'astronomical' but obviously not economical. Ie those are not easy to sell. So your pressuposed 'whealthy victims' are probable very scarce kind of the human kind. I do believe that we in this forum are crazy but within the reasonable bondaries. Not a merrit of our psychology but of our means. I see that you are very well informed about those 'exclusive babys'. I never heard about George Bernard btw.
Dear Lew, I had no idea that you can be also charming. I was 'programmed' to expect mainly critical remarks from you. Thanks for your comment about my Kuzma. But before my Kuzma I owned the Audiomeca J 1 . They are very similar qua design philosophy so it may be the case that Kuzma 'borrowed' some ideas from Lurne.
Regards, |
Lewm,
Congratulations. Is that with the stylus in the groove? |
