Turntable is the most expensive in the chain, do it make sense

Dear @honeyooi  : I still own the XV-1s and owned the Rua and both like a stable tonearm, so unipivot is forbiden but not only with those cartridges but with any one. If your tonearm is with gimbal bearing design just fine.

 

Transducers always makes a difference and in your case speakers can do it where you always should can make the room treatment modifications if those " new " speakers achives your up-grade/improve targets. The other system transducer is the cartridge and today there are several LOMC designs that easily outperforms the RUA.

Phono stage unit can makes a diffrence for the better and in your system you can look for an active high gain phono stage. Your SUT only degrades the cartridge signal.

 

You have different alternatives to up-grade your room/system quality level performance that depends too of your budget level. Those alternatives could be more important that your TT.

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

 

 

@honeyooi 

A lot will depend upon where the sonic bottleneck (weakest component) is in your system.

Usually it will be a mechanical transducer (something that turns vibrations into sound - turntable, or signal into sound - loudspeaker.

Both of these need care in setting up and placement. So it's best to make sure that these 2 requirements are fully met before you consider upgrading.

A carefully set up budget turntable will easily outperform a far more expensive one that isn't.

In fact you might be better off exploring some methods of isolation from vibration first, for both your turntable and your speakers.

If a "better" table is your final destination, you could consider a "better" arm for the VPI base instead of the larger expenditure of both.

As an owner of a Classic, I’m aware the VPI philosophy is far from true "high performance" but to my ear, it gets the message across competently when set up correctly, and I like the traditional look of the VPI Classic.

A legit turntable tech can adapt a Kuzma, Triplanar or whatever, and you would have a significantly"better" setup.

@tablejockey 1++ Your weak link is the tonearm. That should be the first item on your list and that makes three of us with that opinion. 

A power cable change may just be all you need to give you more of what you want. I have been using Black Cat lupo iii Silverwolf cable for a few year. I bought some Furutech FP-S022N cable at £40 a metre. Then made my own cables with furutech rhodium/silver plugs It made everything more clearer. 

Agree with the 'tonearm' comments. For some of us it is the most important 'analog' component. Even though the Kuzma is a 'point' tonearm, it is 4 points. It's super stable.

“do it make sense”

Yes

It makes sense to me because it’s the best sounding part of my system.

@rauliruegas  thanks for the input, Now VPI use gimbal arm and Basis even though uni pivot but is very stable arm. 

I plan to upgrade to XV-1 when the time is come, been in love with dyna cart since own VPI.
regarding transducer I will get better isolation for turntable and speaker.

@tablejockey, Me too have love the classy look when I first saw at dealer especially the rosewood, been own classic 1 then now the 3 in rosewood.

can you point me out tech who can make me adaptor for use different arm on the classic? Thanks 

@defendert thanks for suggestions but I’m not skill at DIY, now using hidiamond 4 power cable.

@cousinbillyl, gotcha. Kuzma in my list 

Careful matching of MC cartridge to SUT has been an "aha" moment for me.  It goes beyond simply dialing in gain and impedance appropriately.  

@honeyooi , The link is well worth a read, it will certainly offer you a reassurance that your use of a SUT is totally acceptable as choice. 

Audiogon Discussion Forum

I like yourself, have wed myself to Valves.

Like yourself, I have been able to experience the impact of Late 50's/ Early 60's Input and Output tubes on owned devices and have been left very very impressed.

I have in use a SUT > Valve Input / Output Phonostage and a option regularly put in to use of a MM/MC Valve Hybrid Phonostage.

Additionally to this I have also got access when wanted to add a Head Amp in place of a SUT.

There is not one set up being experienced that can be referred to as inferior, but the set up's can lend themselves to allowing the recording engineers work to be replayed in a way, that is seemingly aligned to what the engineers intentions was to produce. Using the available permutations, I have always perceived a Wide, Deep, Soundstage with ample Headroom. I have never felt notes/vocals were not being resented with an honesty and do not detect any smearing or coloration. I only detect that each has the capability to add its own traits to the Sonic.

To give an idea of what I am referring to, Pink Floyd's the Wall Album has been the same copy owned since it was released. This Album has travelled far with me and been experienced on many many systems when demo's are being attended.

At no time has the Helicopter on the Album been able to descend and land in the listening space, it has been overwhelmingly present, as it was in a low height hover, but not perceived as a descending aircraft approaching to land.

The only Phon' I have been in the company off that achieves this, is the Head Amp > Valve Hybrid.

Did the Sound Engineer, produce a Helicopter impression that was of one hovering at a low height, ot one that was descending to land? I feel confident my experiences has determined that answer, for myself anyway.

In direct response to your inquiry, I have evolved in my ownership of TT's and moved on from Belt Drives to Idler Drives and now use Direct Drives. I do still own all three drive types and can when the system is set up, put any one into use in a short duration of time.

When moving over to my most recent DD>TA, I changed from having a SME IV and Audiomods Series Five Micrometer as the main in use TA's.

After being demo'd a alternative design for a TA against the SME IV, the evidence was present that the SME IV was surpassed and not too far on, was superseded by the earlier demo'd TA.

I also discovered at a very similar time, I desired to change the TT Drive from Idler with redesigned Platter Bearing and Speed Control to a DD TT.

The DD TT has also undergone modification on the Platter Bearing, Speed Control and method used for mounting it.

I feel confident that by experiencing alternative TA's on your set up, a discovery can be made that will prove extremely satisfactory.

My advisory would be to have a Standalone Tonearm Base to use the alternative TA's on, when being used as a comparison to the owned TA's. A little bit of pre planning and marking out the needed Geometry and height requirements should enable the Standalone Pod to be quickly positioned on any TT, it is wished to be experienced on.  

If an alternative TA, makes a very good impression, even when being open minded and considering one such as the Viv Labs Rigid Float,  it is then advisable to set it up on the TT, as per the method it will be used in the long-term.

I don't know if your TA's are incorporating a detachable Headshell, which might add risks, if comparisons are desired to be carried out with a preferred Cart'.

The following is real, and as strange as it might appear to some, especially the 'anti' SUT, Standalone Pod, Underhung Geometry Brigade.

A friend has a Glanz 12" Arm > Miyajima Cart' mounted on a Home Designed, machine shop produced, Standalone Arm Pod, which is in use with a SUT and SP10 R. I genuinely can't detect how an alternative method, and working within a certain budget, to amplify the current/signal and change of TA mounting method, is able to improve on the extremely good impression already being made. I'm also not close minded and do suspect that if thoughtful changes/adaptions are put in place, something new will be experienced, but bettered will have to be proved.     

    

honeyooi-

When checking out your profile, I overlooked you have a Basis 2500 also.

Doesn't the Basis fill the void left by the Classic?

"can you point me out tech who can make me adaptor for use different arm on the classic? "

I'd look to the dealers in your area who might steer you to someone local.

The person behind this listing may have insight 

Bespoke Direct Drive turntables. For Sale | Audiogon

 

Dear @honeyooi  : "  Basis even though uni pivot but is very stable arm. "

Well you can see at macroscopic level that's stable but the main and critical issue is what is happening at microscopic levels to the cartridge cantilever/stylus trying to follow those " mountains " that are the LP groove modulations during playback where down there exist tremendous forces and stylus tip like hurricane movements that no single unipivot ( no matters what ) tonearm is stable. Unipivots are a forbidden tonearm for any cartridge .

 

I respect your opinion about but that unipivot tonearm really can't helps for any cartridge can showed at its best.

 

R.

@three_easy_payments, I have use 2 SUT, each for TT. 
both SUT have multiple loading input so pretty much easy to match .

@pindac, I did use SUT in my set up chain and so far so good, also valve is the only best sound i ever feel that wow factor bring me into analog.

@tablejockey, Doesn't the Basis fill the void left by the Classic? 
yes , basis separate motor and isolation make sound even blacker and low noise that’s why I think maybe can get even better with other TT. Especially if I can have stand alone pod for use different arm 

“ do it make sense?”

 

Indeed it do….

@honeyooi You have experience with SUT's, and like the way the device interfaces with a Valve Circuit. Do Note: My experience and one that has similarities reported on by others, is that a SUT is able to add a perception that a Rich Tone is being presented. I do feel the SUT's have their followers as a result of this trait being detected. The models selected are not only resulting from a matching exercise, but also those who have been demonstrated a selection, will lean toward the perception of Rich Tone that is most desirable to their unique preferences.

If you do decide to put in place a plan to experience new devices or even make changes. When all is at a place where you feel a new audible experience is being encountered and one that is wanted to be maintained, I suggest having a experience with a Head Amp' in place of the SUT. I can't help but feel this will add to your experience and be considered a worthwhile undertaking.

For me, it is the option to lean toward and away from a perception of Richness being presented, that really adds to the stimulus, feeling confident in the putting in place of methods to create this is a for me a valuable learning, and selecting Genre that realises the benefits of the available changes is quite an appealing exercise.  

After listening to a CS Port TAT1M2 table I can now say YES a table makes a HUGE difference. TAT1M2  (Dealer disclaimer)

Interesting sentences from the CS Port website: "Servo noise is eliminated by open control that does not apply a servo. In addition, a highly accurate voltage is supplied to the motor without fluctuation based on a crystal oscillator with high frequency accuracy."

Seems to me that the crystal oscillator per se is a servo mechanism, albeit acting further back in the process of driving the motor, at the PS level. Also, the phrase "servo noise" reminds me of the humorous aphorism, "when did you stop beating your wife?"  In both cases, guilt is assumed.

@lewm 

This morning. She likes it😛

@sksos 

You are supposed to listen to records, not turntables.

@mijostyn but how do you listen to recordings without a table? 😉 or arm or cartridge?

Use the Radio, CD or Streaming Services to listen to recordings without a TT.  

@pindac 

That's cheating 😶

The Guys in the UK go above and beyond to supply or opportunities for  experiencing a Live Performance, Sound Engineer at Work and then ultimately the Live Performance Experience encountered as a Recorded Replay.

This is as close as it gets to experiencing the entirety of the process as an almost Tangible Experience. 

£50 very well spent.

https://www.audioconsultants.co.uk/musical-event-no-7-studio-session-no-2-24-25-june

Any change to the cartridge/phono stage (I don't need an SUT) or arm will change the sound. If the turntable is well isolated and is of high quality, it shouldn't change the sound. The turntable should not "sound" like anything.

The most important part of any system is the source - the sound cannot improve from whatever comes out of it. That doesn't mean other things aren't important too. 

As always, the limiting factor (aside from the source) of overall SQ is your room. For a small room, speaker selection is limited. 

@tablejockey 

”…I’m aware the VPI philosophy is far from true ‘high performance’…”

I am not sure why you would say that. 
 

I went from a Garard to a Dual 1229 to a VPI HW MK II, upgraded to MK IV. I’ve had the VPI for 38 years. Built like a brick s#+thouse, and sounds great, to me at any rate. 
 

clarify your statement? 

"clarify your statement? "

unreceivedogma-

I'm sure your setup sounds good.

As mentioned, I'm satisfied VPI user also.

The OP and I have have similar level gear that subjectively plays at the 90% or so of "next level"/SOTA LP performance.

The OP wants to get to the "next level" of LP playback.

Uber, statement-blow your mind setups incorporate arms that are not unipivot.

VPI gear is made to approach crazy uber level performance at price points easier on the wallet.

There is a few Agon members with next level gear. Perhaps they and the technically qualified can elaborate on the unipivot weakness.

SOTA level LP playback is of course the sum of the components.