Turntable got absolutely crushed by CD

@n80

So in order to hear the superiority of vinyl I have to spend a LOT of money.

What are you talking about ?
Brand new Technics SL-1200GR cost about $1500 in the US, some amazing phono stages like JLTi cost under $800 including shipping, superb MM cartridges cost under $400. This is all you need to enjoy vinyl media and i’m pretty sure you will be blown away by the quality compared to CD and Digital, especially if you like not only new music. $2700 in total for decent analog gear is a lot of money for you compared to the gigital gear? I think you already have an amp and speakers. 

Not sure where you from, but there are many amazing records available for $5-20 each in mint- condition. 

@kahlenz

Man, the hipsters are into pro audio. They’ll go direct from their phones to a pair of active studio monitors. The extra cool kids have a two channel audio interface or a small mixing board so they can plug in their turntables, CD players, playstations, guitars and microphones. They’ll play whatever media they can get their hands on and plug into their boards.

Also true, but we have more record shops in my town now than ever, i used to run a record shop in 1998-2000 (before digital streaming became popular), CD was mainstream back then.

People are buying more records now that in the late 90’s and these people are very young. At the same time old dudes also pretty active in the record shops here, but different record shops.

And while hipsters can use whatever format, the vinyl is the most interesting media for smart kids, this is "something real" for them, not like digital streaming.

BTW Records are not for audiophiles, records are for everyone. As i said i know boys and girls buyin records without turntables. They can listen to the same album digitally, but they want vinyl to put on the shelf, because it's real and cool. 

n80 +1
" CDs might be dying, but I’m enjoying a bonanza while they’re doing it"

I buy both and literally have thousands of vinyl albums, like a lot of people here. It does seem to be a buyers market right now with cd's though.  

N80

Agree that there are CDs and then there are CDs. I spend a fair amount of time researching which $6 CD to get. It pays off. Just like it does with vinyl but at $6 I’m way below what you pay for even average vinyl and around 1/3 the cost of HD Tracks stuff.

I guess I am very fortunate to have one of the best and most fairly priced LRS in the USA on my doorstep.
I can buy endless as new vinyl at $4 to $8 a pop that only need a wipe down to play.
Now their bargain bin $1 boxes also hold some gems that yes require a fair bit of cleaning but hey $1 a LP or 2 as got a lot of double albums out these bins too.

I have paid more dollars for vinyl I just had to have to complete a collection that is uber rare but that is the exception not the norm for me.

Good vinyl at fair prices IS out there as long as you use logic not emotion when buying.

n80:

For me part of the journey is having fun researching different gear to include auditioning. Buying previously owned is also an option as long as you make informed purchases.

I would not focus on buying an anolog source to out proform CD’s but to achieve a level of anologe audio you can enjoy. There are some really excellent Vintage turntables that out proform many modern decks, if spec mean anything.

With a level of risk and patients you can source good deals on excellent used cartridges and a variety of other analog gear. Of course buying new is alway preferred but from what I have read sometimes expectation aren’t meant.

Well, good for. You have an opinion.

Perhaps, geoff...but, in my opinion, it is rare that any of these "variables" exist in sufficient magnitude to effect the audio signal sent to the speakers.  And, if they do, the human hear cannot detect whatever difference these "variables" might make.

edgewear, there are a number of variables involved in the physical CD itself that affect the sound. These variables are independent of the recording and the CD mastering. The physical CD variables include, but are not completely limited to, transparency of the clear layer, the reflectivity of the metal layer, the colors of the CD label, the accuracy of the CD circumference roundness relative to the spindle hole, the accuracy with which the pits and lands are placed on the disc during manufacture. The degree to which scattered background CD laser light degrades the sound can be affected by coloring the physical disc and or the disc player tray.

A couple of thoughts. Whenever I mention that vinyl doesn’t sound all that good I’m told, and rightfully so I’m sure, that its because my TT, cart and phono-pre are junk. And they are. But the thing is, so are the various CD players I’ve had plugged into my system and there is no doubt that through a reasonably high end system the CDs sound way better than vinyl.

So in order to hear the superiority of vinyl I have to spend a LOT of money. Do a lot of futzing and fiddling and secure the TT in some sort of meaningful way. To hear 90% (made that up) of what a CD has to offer costs next to nothing. Certainly a transport with a good DAC (which can have other duties) could exploit that remaining percentage and still cost a lot less that a high end TT, cart, tone arm, and phono pre.

I would never debate that vinyl may indeed sound superior to CDs to many many discriminating ears, I’m just not sure it would ever be worth it to me to try and find out. 

I even understand the collecting and enjoying the active involvement in playing vinyl.

Agree that there are CDs and then there are CDs. I spend a fair amount of time researching which $6 CD to get. It pays off. Just like it does with vinyl but at $6 I’m way below what you pay for even average vinyl and around 1/3 the cost of HD Tracks stuff.

CDs might be dying, but I’m enjoying a bonanza while they’re doing it.

@geoffkait 
'Less wobbling equals less jitter' 

It's true that Japanese cd's are better centered than most others. This is easy enough to see with the 'open' transport bay of my Bow cd player. Perhaps the player needs less error correction, because the laser has an easier job reading the disc. I remember reading once that error correction requires bit capacity. Is this what you mean?

So perhaps with eccentric discs 'more error correction equals less resolution', which might explain why Japanese cd's generally sound better. This definitely concurs with my own experience, even before the introduction of SHM material.

IMHO the Japanese must be applauded for single handedly creating an entirely separate world of truly collectable cd's. These mini LP sleeve cd's have superior sound quality as well as meticulous recreation of the original vinyl release artwork. Great stuff!

Man, the hipsters are into pro audio.  They'll go direct from their phones to a pair of active studio monitors.  The extra cool kids have a two channel audio interface or a small mixing board so they can plug in their turntables, CD players, playstations, guitars and microphones.  They'll play whatever media they can get their hands on and plug into their boards.

For those who like "Americana" music, know that New West Records, home to many of my favorite artists (Buddy Miller, John Hiatt, Rodney Crowell, Richard Thompson, plenty of others) offers some of their titles on cassette.

Chakster, if nothing was available but the "mid fi" crap that we thought was good for playing records, I wouldn't give you a nickel for a boatload of vinyl.

The OP is right; if his analog rig isn't together, the digital will cream it, and all you have to do is stick it in the player. Since my rig is together, vinyl is all I'm doing lately.

Minor, not everyone see's things from an Audiophiles perspective; that means there are some very good buys out there.

I’m much more happy to use a cassettes than CDs
CD format is dead, let’s face it, digital is all about files, not a CDs

Each CD can be copied on hard drive and your digital device will find a cover and tracklist online automatically. Scratched CDs are useless and can not be played (even scratched vinyl can be played, but not a CD), hard drives also dies occasionally. Even the best CDs can be copied with no loss. So what we’re missing without CDs ? A printed booklet if there is any? Digital format cost nothing, everything can be copied in digital for free with no loss in quality.

There is no future for CDs. The industry tried to fool people when CD format was invented, but it does not replaced vinyl after all. Dealers who bought warehouses full of vinyl records in the 80s/90s became millionaires. Young Hipsters, adult vinyl collectors and music lovers still buying vinyl. Vinyl is a good investement, not a CDs. Digital has no value at all, it cost nothing and alway will be nothing!

There is no such media format for young generation as CD or DVD, BlueRay, MiniDisc, DAT cassette or whatever, everything is on the cloud, streaming for free.

The only format which is continuously fascinating people of all kinds is Vinyl. I bet everyone would love to have a turntable and vinyl collection of the favorite albums, not everyone willing to pay for it. Nothing can beat vinyl, it’s an art form, the most exciting physical media format!

Cassettes are cool and cheap, new independent record labels releasing music on cassettes in limited edition series. 20 years old hipsters buying them even if they don’t have a cassette player (same with vinyl records). This is just cool!

Majority of audiophiles are so boring when it comes to discussion of ticks and pops, vinyl cleaning etc. 

Vinyl will never be replaced by any format, at least in our life. There is always an alternative to use, but vinyl is everywhere all my life and even new releases from very young musicians coming out on vinyl. Every musician would love to have their own album on vinyl, this is the only format they can actually sell for money, the rest will be copied for free. 

Cassettes are cool. Better grab em up quick, though. They don’t make em any more. 

I have maybe one Japanese CD (David Lindley's "Mister Dave," an otherwise unobtainable solo album that David won't discuss...record company politics maybe...that is simply brilliant), and it doesn't work AT ALL on my turntable, but plays perfectly in my CD player. Could that be due to the excessive roundness? Also, to say the upturn in vinyl sales and production is exaggerated simply ignores reality, and yeah, it's mostly due to young people discovering the things...new pressing plants, more vinyl everywhere...who knew? I listen to CDs AND vinyl...there is no argument really as both can sound astonishingly good.

"play just fine" is not audiophile language. Yes, you would have to pay more for Japanese cds. Do it.

Lizzie, are you living in a cave, perchance? The German disc trimmer trimmed the outer edge of CD and cut the outer edge at an angle. The outer circumference is not perfectly round relative to the spindle hole. Less wobbling equals less jitter. An Angled edge means less scattered background laser light gets into the photodetector. And you want to be my latex salesperson? 

One secret, it’s very hush hush, so don’t tell anyone, of the Japanese SHM CDs is that the clear layer of the CDs is more transparent than standard CDs, which use polycarbonate for the clear layer. As fate would have it polycarbonate is only around 90-92% transparent. Can you believe it? 😳

Japanese cds’ shape is also more accurate, more round, more symmetrical. With cds it also starts with ’turntable’, with mechanics.

No, I don’t have an explanation, other than the SHM CDs use superior materials, I.e., Super High Materials SHM. If they have secrets they’re not sharing, Japanese releases of classic rock LPs were/are outstanding, too. In fact, Japanese equipment, from headphones to Sony Walkman, to Isoclean and Furutech fuses and other tweaks, like Audio Revive, etc., tend to be outstanding in every way.

@geoffkait 
'The future is here!'

Well, there you go. I don't waste much time going through used cd bins, because most of what you see is mid price and budget price reissue crap. For example, where I live you hardly ever see full price first edition Decca cd's. Perhaps because they cost a small fortune when they were released and dealers give the same for them as those cheap reissues, which is next to nothing.

This makes me think about those cute little Japanese mini LP sleeve cd's, which seem to appreciate in value the moment they are deleted. In CD wonderland, those are the best investments you can make. And sonically they are usually miles ahead of the US and EU pressings, even when they use the same masterings. To be honest I have no explanation for this. Do you?

I think young people and records is grossly exaggerated; I only know my son's friends who are college educated, and none of them own or think about records; they're mostly into "streaming".

Unless you're a "geezer", or "geezeress" who already owned a bazillion records when CD's came out, this analog thing doesn't make a lot of sense. As an example, the OP on one thread is crying the blues because he can not audition very expensive cartridges; I think he's considering cartridges in the neighborhood of 4K. Now unless you're exceptionally well heeled, that's a lot of dough.

As "audiophiles", we rationalize spending amounts that are out of proportion to our income, but this analog thing is even outside of that; rationalize or not, I had to see what the fuss was about, (especially since I owned so many records) and now that I've gotten there, I won't be climbing this ladder unless I can climb a money tree in my backyard.

I think young people and records is grossly exaggerated; that's because records don't make a lot of sense for young people, and the young people I've come into contact with are college educated and money savy.

In regard to the increase in sales, Geezers returning to vinyl would account for that, and those increases are compared to almost no vinyl sales, which makes them seem even larger.

After all of that, I'm going to spend the day enjoying my records; that's what geezers do; BTW, I'm discovering many new records that have hardly been played; although they're copies or replacement records, that's still a nice surprise.


Happy spinning.

Analog is more dynamic than digital.
I think, cds will disappear soon enough, it is going to be either analog or computer. Yeah, I threw away a few remastered cds, original were always better except Japanese audiophile.
We are immortal. Elizabeth, you say nonsense.

Compare these releases of the same album:

The Doors "The Doors" monarch pressing (considered the best press?).

The Doors "The Doors" re-issued, digitally re-mastered (from digital master) on Rhino Records, 180g

The Doors "The Doors" re-issue from the original mastertape on Analogue Production (re-mastered in analog by Doug Sax), 200g, 2xLP 45rpm

Glupson, I felt like I was in a movie; I called it the "Glide Mobile", and we were constantly on the go while I DJ'd.

"Reverb" was popular then, and inside the car, it sounded like you were in a cave; a real out of this world sound; getting there was more than half the fun, because not long after reaching your destination, you were thinking about where to next.

orpheus10,

I just looked that 66 Electra 225 up. Wow, everything in there would be worth a movie. Just wow.

orpheus10,

That is what I meant. It must have been wonderful, the best sound ever. I still suspect that today, compared to current players and all these debates about wires, fuses, blacker blacks, wider soundstages, and what not, they would be considered imperfect. However, emotional impact must have been beyond belief. I have never heard one.

Glupson, they had 45 RPM record players that were installed in the glove compartment, and there was nothing "lo fi" about them; my lady friend had one in her 66 Electra 225, and if you hit a big bump, it would let out a reverberating "ping"; I enjoyed it immensely.

prof,

Your inclination to keep things "proper and pure" is understandable. In theory, I am that way. In practice, some records I would have liked to listen to again (after a decades-long hiatus) had to be digitized regardless of the audiophile-approved result. Cars, Walkman for planes, and all that. None of which is audiophile environment, but I cannot change it. The semi-perfectionist worm inside made me go for DSD but that is the only concession.

Which all reminds me that, once upon a time, there were record players for cars. And now we babble about minutia of the records meant to be played in them. We should ask kids who had dates in those cars listening to those records how they are really supposed to sound. I bet they were as low-fi as they could get and as exciting as anything we have these days, or more.

glupson,

What it means, I suspect (and from what I've read, and though many may protest) is simply that the vinyl sound can be captured by digital.  Which makes sense to me.

I don't do needle drop recordings for various reasons.  My system isn't set up for it.  But I have no desire.  If I'm listening to vinyl, I want the whole experience.  I also have left over mental aversions to digitizing my analog front end signal....those audiophile genes kicking in.  I just like the division between fully analog and digital sources.  If I sent everything through a digital converter it could actually make my life easier as it opens everything up to using digital room correction (though, frankly as my system stands I don't hear a need).   Though this aversion to digitizing my vinyl signal raised it's head when I bought some subwoofers (not yet integrated).  The subs don't have their own room correction and I will be splitting the signal between the mains and the subs.  I know room correction can come in really handy for subs and that would entail digitizing at least the signal from the analog front end to the subwoofers.  This would at least keep the signal fully analog to the main speakers, so I think I can wrap my head around that.   Damned audiophile genes!

By the way, I just copied that Famous Blue Raincoat record I had mentioned earlier into digital format (DSD 2.8). If there is a difference, it is not that is negligible. It is that it really does not matter. It is very very small, at best, and that is me giving it benefit of the doubt. So, it is a digital recording from last century, pressed on vinyl, played on a less-than-truly-audiophile analog equipment, and then transferred to decent digital format via the cheapest machine I could find. I have no idea what it all means except that digital is more convenient in the long run. Good news: There will be no more news about Famous Blue Raincoat.

elizabeth,

It is already slowly creeping up. The hippest of the hipsters in Williamsburg (Brooklyn) are already in for CDs and not LPs. The only correction your post may need is that their parents listened to CDs, not LPs.

Why did hipster burn his tongue? He drank coffee before it was cool. (as told by an 11-year-old girl)

kahlenz,

It was me who mentioned Exile On Main St. I think I have same CD as you do. My record is from 1982. It sounds "perfect" to the point that I digitalized it so it is available for portable devices. My friend agrees. However, listening carefully, record is missing tones, even dynamics (hello loudness wars) and is objectively probably inferior. I like it more. It is likely due to it being what my mind tells me it is supposed to be.

They’ve always had CDs. No mystery about that. These days I suspect death might explain why some CDs pop up at thrift stores.

I was just mentioning more likely reason why thrift-stores have CDs. Their distribution is another topic.

Well, you’re partially correct. About 2% in thrift stores are collectible CDs. Collectible in the sense they are somewhat rare and have value. About 10-20% of the CDs are uncompressed, but extremely common CDs that collectors, not unlike your humble scribe, just don’t have room for any more or already have. You know, Nirvana’s Nevermind, Led Zeppelin 1, II, III, etc. original or 1994, Beck, Rolling Stones Exile on Main St., Beatles Abbey Rd., they’re all good, even great. They just don’t have any real value. Unless you think $2 is any real value.

"Check out the CDs at most thrift stores and you’ll find by and large most of them are reissues that fall under the category of aggressively compressed. That’s because collectors of which there are a great number dump them like hot potatoes."

The first part is likely true, but the second part may have different explanation. For example, people dumping CDs altogether. Not that long ago, my local library was overflooded with LPs. Some really old. It was not due to collectors dumping them. It was more like their descendants dumping them. Maybe people who owned these thrift-store CDs are not all dead yet, but they may be dumping the format they consider obsolete. 

edgewear
Which begs the question: will we ever see an audiophile collector's market for cd first issues and pressings?

>>>>The future is here! Check out the CDs at most thrift stores and you’ll find by and large most of them are reissues that fall under the category of aggressively compressed. That’s because collectors of which there are a great number dump them like hot potatoes. You will also find on eBay that CD reissues that are overly compressed are usually heavily discounted. Whereas early or original CDs that are not compressed sell at high premiums, if they are even available. I will not knowingly listen to compressed CDs myself. I actually look for cassettes of music I like since they are not compressed, having been produced prior to the Oudhess Wars.

@geoffkait 
Interesting observation. Not just cd players seem to be aiming at a more processed sound, recent cd reissues apparently go in the same direction. From an audiophile point of view this is indeed not good. All this manipulation of the datastream seems to squash dynamics, probably the only real advantage digital has over analog.

Why? Perhaps because most people enjoy music through mediocre media systems and/or earplugs. Just as most record companies compressed their vinyl records to accomodate those cute little gramophones that were used in most households. Thankfully at least some audiophile companies like Decca, Mercury, (early) RCA, Blue Note e.a. were aiming higher and used as little compression as they could get away with. One of the reasons why these venerable records are still considered as a benchmark.

Which begs the question: will we ever see an audiophile collector's market for cd first issues and pressings?

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/album?artist=Rolling+stones&album=Exile+on+Main+Street

I dunno about harsh but the 2010 issue is super compressed. Worst case scenario. That can’t be good.

Whereas the early CD is relatively uncompressed.

The Rolling StonesExile On Main St.1989 CD 12 10 14

Somebody mentioned "Exile on Main Street".  My remastered digital copy (2010, Universal Republic records B0014130-02) sounds harsh on my system, my old record from '72 sounds perfect.  Who knows?

That is interesting. A little discrepancy in recording approach. Very far from disinterested party, for sure.

And as regards the Aloi/Linn disc the joke was that Ivor wouldn’t say which side is which ... 🤔
https://books.google.com/books?id=aBUDS_G-SU8C&pg=PA688&lpg=PA688&dq=aloi+analogue+digit...

back in the day as well Linn was a far from disinterested party 😉