well, you want to avoid a bloated low end. are you chasing something that isn’t there, and shouldn’t be?
best arm/plinth/spinner in the world should not be adding a bottom end, or anything for that matter, purpose is to prevent all problems, and to properly transmit fidelity.
CARTRIDGE
I’ve never heard one, but the Hana SH cartridge specs are certainly excellent, and if the low content is there, it should be sending it ...
Is it broken in, stylus/cantilever/suspension not worn/dried out, do you have the skills, tools, and are you confidenct that it is properly aligned in every way? Tightly fastened to Arm? Headshell rigid and rigidly fastened?
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Is it possible the cartridge is defective?
Perhaps change only the cartridge first!
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Have you asked Project for their advice about this?
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After that, if still in search of, I would try to determine suspected weak link
Then Arm, everything tight? are the vibrations getting down the line?
Arm to Plinth solid
Plinth not absorbing lows?
Phono cable (caution, my expensive one made zero difference) better ’protection’ from interference that doesn’t exist gets you nothing except less $.
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I like the Technics 1200G and the Pickering XSV 3000. Nice analog sound with very good bottom end.
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I am not sure you have asked a "good" question, but my Stanton 981LZS has particularly excellent bass clarity and downward extension. Really, low bass in the room will depend upon many many other factors, besides the cartridge and TT, not the least of which is the tonearm.
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+1 @lewm
i too was hesitant about a sub. My speakers are supposedly down to 20hz. It wasn't until I added a sub that I got the bass I was looking for. My point is, just because the specs say so doesn't mean it produces it at a level that you like. You will need to do more than change TT's & cartridges. Bite the bullet and get a Rel sub which integrates very good and enhances your speakers output as well. Just my opinion
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If you really want a terrific bottom end it doesn'y cost anywhere near ten grand but it does involve 4 subs. $3k will get you there easy. And I know, because I have that terrific bottom end- both the speakers and the cart/turntable. Which by the way you left out the other key ingredient, the phono stage.
I just upgraded from Koetsu Black Goldline / Herron VTPH2A to Soundsmith Strain Gauge and it is head and shoulders better in every way except the bottom end. Koetsu/Herron simply was fabulous. Will be upgrading the power supply to hopefully get me there.
This is all by way of explaining everything matters. You could get my Koetsu/Herron, we know it produces absolutely superb bottom end. With just your two speakers however you will hear only a fraction of it. I know. My Moab have superb bass. Probably because the woofers are so far apart. "Distributed" being the key word in Distributed Bass Array. Even so, turn on the subs, it is a whole different experience. Not so much because "more" but mostly because better.
If you go this route do yourself a favor and disregard the "get a sub" people. One sub, or even two, only worth doing if en route to four. Do your research. You will find the only ones arguing with that have no experience on which to argue. While every single one of us who has a DBA knows.
Hopefully you can take all that put it together and figure out what will work for you.
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Wow I appreciate all the return comments. I picked up the Pro-Ject Classic at Music Direct, in Chicago. It’s about a 40-minute drive from me. I had Music Direct remove the Sumiko Blue Point #2 and Install the Hanna. The tech worked on it for over an hour so I have always assumed it was mounted correctly. The only place I have for a sub is on a side wall close to the seating. The front of the 16 by 16 foot room is completely filled.
The problem to answering a lot of these questions back to me is that I have jumped the gun. I have up- graded the whole system from just an AVR receiver to all separates and the only equipment I have received so far, are the GeerFab Audio D.BOB Digital Breakout Box, and Innuos Zenith.
The Benchmark equipment is next week, and the Parasound JC 3+, who knows. I should have waited till I had the whole new setup before I asked for advice. I can be a dunce at times.
I can only imagine that once I hear the Hana going to the Parasound to the Benchmark Pre amp and power amp, I will probably orgasm. But then again, I still would love thoughts on the best set up 10 grand can buy.
Right now, the Pro-Ject Classic goes to a Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 then to my AVR Dennon 45H for amplification.
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Nice system marshinski 15! Great values throughout.
The one place where high output cartridges for certain have moving coils beat is in dynmaics and bass. The Clearaudio Charisma is incredible in that regard as is the Soundsmith Voice. I assume 10K was for tonearm,table and cartridge. Either cartridge with the P10 would be excellent. Other tables to consider would be the SME Model 6, The Thorens TD1600 and the Sota Sapphire with a Kuzma 4 Point 9 tonearm which is easily the best value of the bunch. Put the Chrisma on this table and you will have dynamite bass for sure.
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This discussion forum is better than any audiophile mag. It was you guys that steered me to the Innuos Zenith. Thanks for the help
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4 subs,Really....I don't use any and my system sounds great....
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What interests me most is that we most of us think our systems sound great, and yet our systems are so different from one another and were assembled based sometimes on very different, even conflicting beliefs. And yet each of us who feels that he is at the end of a pathway or very near it, is a happy camper.
By the way, when a commercial speaker maker tells you his product "goes down to 30" or especially if it "goes down to 20", you ought to take that with more than a grain of salt. The statement is meaningless unless the reference frequency is given along with the db difference between the reference frequency (typically 1kHz) and the low bass limit. So, a guy could say his speakers "go down to 30", and at 30Hz they might be 10db down from the response at 1kHz. But because he didn't give the details, he also didn't confabulate (nice word for "lie").
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Get a good rim drive like Garrard or modded lrnco
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My experience is that heavy turntables without a suspension offer really solid bass... Think of one of the VPI unsprung turntables for cost effective solution (there are many other companies making good unsprung tts. If it isn't in the source... then it's hard to add latter. Sprung tables have a liveliness for which they are priced, but the massive unsprung ones have more solid bass.
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@ghdprentice , I hate to elbow you but I think that is lay instinct. I'm sure there are a bunch of mass loaded turntables that have great bass but any VPI turntable that comes with a unipivot arm is less likely to have great bass. It is the one place that in general unipivot arms fail the most. Theoretically, a properly suspended turntable should have clearer bass (more detail) because much less low frequency noise is transferred to them mechanically. Suspended tables do tend to be more expensive.. I would much prefer a Kuzma turntable over a VPI. The M is a really nice piece except for the price. The Ref 2 is also a beautiful table but the M comes with a dust cover!
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How loud do U play music. Our ear bass response is level dependent. I believe flat response on healthy ears is 100dB, terribly unhealthy. At 80dB I believe the ear is down over 10 dB. The point is a flat system may be flat for real but at normal listening levels your ears are the problem. To hear low bass a reasonable levels you need reinforcement.
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I can verify that the Pro-Ject the Classic and Classic EVO pair very well with the Hana SH. If you have "the Classic" also consider the Pro-Ject The Classic Evo Sub-Platter Upgrade $149 at Audio Advisor. It will bring your classic up to Evo spec.
The Hana SH just sounds fantastic, more detailed and foregiving than my former Ortofon 2M Black. The key is you'll need a good set-up the VTA and other settings must be spot on for the eliptical Hana SH stylus. All the highs and low end will be revealed.
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I'm playing Monitor Audio Gold Reference 20s and was blown away by implementing 1 10 inch sub. There's no way you will ever get the bottom you want without a sub. I would say borrow one and hear what I'm talking about
Trust me you will be satisfied
look at another table/cart after you have heard the sub in play
Good luck
Willy-T
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I have personally moved from the Hana EH to the ML and if was a fantastic move. I also just recently moved the the Clearaudio Ovation from my Concept Wood and this was a fantastic move for bass and micro details. I can highly recommend these moves for better bass and even bass detail. Good luck!
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The Monitor Audio Gold 300's may say they go down to 30hz, but the specs say the do that at -6Db. Loudness drops off by half for every 3Db reduction, so you're down to 25% of the volume of the higher frequencies at that point. And you'd have to see the curve to see how far down it is at 50Hz.
There is really no speaker on earth - unless it includes a powered sub in it - that truly gives you all the bass.
You need a sub(s) and it doesn't matter a lot where you put it. Your ears can't localize frequencies that low. You might be able to put it beside you or behind you.
And as MillerCarbon notes, using multiple subs makes the placement irrelevant.
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Here is a huge problem for you, 16 by 16 foot room, and even worse if the room has an 8 foot ceiling.
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Socalml528. I am taking your advice. I'll pick up the subpaltter upgrade.
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Never was a fan of the cheaper Pro-Ject turntables, but looking at a review of the new Pro-Ject Debut Pro makes me think this is a real winner at the entry level.
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Some of the best MM cartridges from the dolgen age of analog can reproduce bass from 5Hz, I doubt there is anything like that on the record, but if you will look at the specs of the Audio-Technica AT-ML170 or 180 you will see frequency response of those marvelous cartridges: 5Hz - 42k Hz for AT-ML180 and 5Hz - 40kHz for AT-ML170. Those cartridges are spectacular.
Anyway, if you have bass issues you have to studdy room acoustics, it depends on your room size and position of your speakers (and your listening position). Do not change any gear until you will find a sweet spot in your room with your speakers. Various methods published online.
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At 5Hz, any cartridge/tonearm will be at or below its resonant frequency, at which the frequency itself would produce an apparent peak in response. Furthermore, can one encode a frequency of 5Hz on a record? I have to wonder how one could measure a true cartridge response at 5Hz. Seems wishful thinking to me.
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I think there is nothing below 20Hz on vinyl record.
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"Right now, the Pro-Ject Classic goes to a Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 then to my AVR Dennon 45H for amplification."
Put some USA Baldwin (Raytheon) 1959-1962 yellow label NOS tubes in the DS2 if you want it to sing at its best. I've tried them all and these tubes were by far the best. Can be had for well under $100 a pair.
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"I think there is nothing below 20Hz on vinyl record."
except the frequency of a large warp on an album. Thus subsonic filters.
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I’m using a Thorens TD124 classic turntable with RMG 12” arm (one of a handful of good 12” arms) and Ortofon SPU-1 S round needle MC cartridge. Stunningly balanced frequency response with beautiful low end definition. Key is a properly serviced/set up table/tone arm/cartridge to achieve maximum results.
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Make sure to address any vibration/isolation issues with the table. Wall shelf will help. Can make a tremendous difference. So can pods or roller blocks.
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Yes I felt the bass like crazy when I had my system in my basement and had a sub attached. But that was when I was having a party and the Funkadelics were playing or watch a movie....
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You are right when you leave the avr for your new gear it will be a great upgrade in everything- the phono section in most avr are horrible.
Next you may wish to play with speaker placement now that the system performance allows you to hear differences better.
As to 10k turntable systems with great bass extension you really need to hear good direct drive. I happen to sell such so am biased ;)
STST
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I have a marvelous bottom end, and am interested in TT recommendations.
SME with Dynavector cartridge has much more authoritative bass than an LP12 with same cartridge , to me, fwiw.
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I already had a solid bottom end with Technics 1200G and AT750SH (with Project Phono Box RS an Tannoy Turnberry GR). No sub needed.
But the bass and everything else went up a notch with my new Hagerman Trumpet MC phono stage.
It went up another notch with an AT33PTGII cartridge.
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