Tube Vs. SS Preamps

I know what you mean. IMO it has to do with the distortion signature- neither a tube or solid state preamp will be making any significant distortion but its a simple fact that distortion is inescapable.

Its been shown that the lower ordered harmonics serve two functions both of which are helpful. The first is that if they are there at sufficient amplitude, they can mask higher ordered harmonics that otherwise are perceived as brightness.

The 2nd and more important function is that somehow the 2nd and 3rd harmonic are helpful to the ear in some way in helping it to perceive soundstage width and depth. You might be easily convinced that this is some sort of effect rather than being neutral, but if you listen to a direct microphone feed and compare that to the actual musical performance you find that the sound stage is simply being presented in a more natural fashion.

I think more research could be done in this area, but I’m not holding my breath for it to happen. But it is a documented phenomena.

makes sense ralph, thank you

wishing you (and all others here) a happy holidays!

I think that the classic era tube preamps definitely coloured the music albeit in a way many liked, but most modern tube preamps tend to be uncoloured in that way.  In the CJ line up, the clouration was obvious in the old PV9  but is absent in the Premier 14 I now use.

I’ve changed amplifiers, solid state as well as tube over the years and what has lasted in my system is the Cary Audio SLP-05 with the Ultimate Upgrade and Cardis Wiring. Hands down, the best I’ve owned and believe me I’ve owned some serious hi end SS & Tube Preamps. Check the reviews. Oh and if you want one of the baddest headphone amplifier from a preamp, look no further. Incredible with my Audeze LCD-4’s. 
 

https://www.stereophile.com/tubepreamps/906cary/index.html

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/is-the-cary-slp-05-still-relavant

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/cary-audio-slp-05-linestage-preamplifier-cad-211-fe-monoblock-amplifiers-tas-205-1

https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/177419/tube-preamp-review-mcintosh-c500t-vs-cary-slp-05

https://www.hometheatershack.com/threads/cary-audio-slp-05-preamplifier-review.20652/

I like using my Chinese made tube preamp...its well built and sounds great.I have used both  SS preamps and tube ....phono preamps to...I like trying different pieces of equipment. 

Get yourself a BAT or Conrad Johnson tube pre. The difference is noticeable and pleasing. I’ll never go back to SS exclusively. I can’t believe you never sampled tubes in 25 years. But you don’t know what you’ve been missing. 

For the moment I’m back on full tube. Tube preamp for me adds a lot of body ss is lacking although I’ve never had what you might call a “high end “ preamp. 
 

Ive dabbled with tube pre and ss amp along with ss pre amd tube amp. I found most of the magic resides with the preamp tubes. The ss pre with tube amp did not sound good at all. Like bad. Ymmv. 

I am going to chime in here and then everyone can attack me. I think that many lesser priced tube based designs can be very musical and soft sounding which compliments many lesser expensive ss designed amps. So on the more affordable side of things I believe that tubed equipment sounds pleasing, maybe not super revealing or hyper accurate, but very pleasing. Obviously as the price goes up and the true art and science of sound reproduction is achieved both solid state and tubed designs both hit all the stops, sound stage, intimacy, immediacy and revealing of source information.

Hi Greg. Been there and done that.

First up: interplay between price and quality.  Not a difficult concept in itself but it gets a bit more complicated with the variable of tube vs SS.  That is to say it is more difficult - and thereby more expensive - to produce an equivalent quality tube pre amp.  The main issue is in getting a truly low nice tube design. 

Second: There is a bit of a continuum.  For SS then mosfets sound closer to tubes than bi-polar transistors.  Likewise 6H30 tubes have more tube sound than others.

My take for a pre (given that I like valves): Do not bother unless you get a very high quality (and expensive) valve Pre that runs 6H30 tubes.

This is not so easy.  I have an Ayon Eris but I prefer to run my Emm Labs or Daniel Hertz Pre.  The Ayon is good but the Emm and the Daniel Hertz are just lower noise.

There is no correct answer to your question. Different designers are going to focus on different things. For me Don Sach's DS2 preamp with the right tubes is the most accurate preamp I have had in my system. It drives my ML 29L amp perfectly. One of these days I'll finish building my amplifier which is very similar to Don's amp, which is largely based upon the Tubes4HIFI Mods for Hafler's Dynaco ST70. Don used to be known for his mods to Macintosh and HK tube gear. Roy ((TUBES4HIFI) is a fantastic designer, and Don took Roy's improvements and just blew them up using amazing components, and power supply upgrades.

I started out with a prototype amp Roy made, and I wanted more. I have shelved it for now because I stumbled upon a deal on the ML 29L. I had been using a PS AUDIO 200C, which controls the speakers about as well as the ML, but is darker and has less definition. That's what motivated me to look at a tube amp, but the ML finally has me at the point of contentment.

So, it's not nearly so much a SS vs Tubes, you can find plenty of both that suck, and a few that are awesome. It all depends upon how well designed they are, and how much they were screwed up by using crappy or even decent components vs the best or one of the best components here or there.

Then there are personal preference issues. I divide listeners into 2 primary categories. One I call Vandersteen types. These folks don't want exact replication, they would prefer a bit darker sound so that they can enjoy lower quality productions. They'll listen to music that used more mediocre equipment for producing it, or some that just wasn't mixed well, etc. I used to think of them negatively, obviously I am in the other camp. Then I gave it some thought and realized that everyone likes what they like, and as long as we're talking strictly music, what's important is that they enjoy their music, not that I like their system.

The other camp wants to hear the music as it was made, warts and all. I gave up turntables as soon as I had tweaked a CD player to the point that it was listenable. I was paying high dollars for "high end" records that seemed to have more surface noise than mass produced records from a decade or two previously. Was it really record or was it the equipment I was listening to it on, who knows, it just drove my crazy to pay so much for such noisy records. Anyway, it's difficult to answer your question intelligently because I don't know your preferences, and frankly, if it hasn't been in my system, how do I know if other components are coloring the music, making me think a good component is mediocre or worse?

I know that finally, when listening to a good recording, it sounds like I am there more so than on any other system that I have ever heard. I suspect that my DAC Isa shade bright, but I don't want to spend 5K or so only to find out that DAC X, Y, or Z is worse in some respect, or that it seems plight occasionally because the master was slightly bright, therefore copies made from it are bright too?

If you want accurate, but don't want tubes, and are willing to sacrifice a shade of realism, I have had a Parasound P5 in my system. I suspect they may not use all discrete devices in the signal path, but if I just couldn't afford tubes, I think that I could live with it. That said, I believe that the Halo 7's are selling for under $900 used and while I have never heard one in my system, I strongly suspect that they sound better than the P5.

It largely depends upon what you want and what you are willing to spend to get it. I am talking about a 30 year old memory here, but as I remember it, if I didn't care about turning up the volume, or hearing deep bass, the most magical speakers I recall hearing before mine were the old Quad ELS57s. Unfortunately finding my drivers would be like finding hen's teeth so I won't bother naming them. If you don't have a large budget, I am told by a source whom I know well that the crazy inexpensive Lii 15 sounds crazy good for the money, this fellow I believe will sell you the speakers and an open baffle for them.

http://www.caintuckaudio.com/Lii_15.html

agree that lesser tube gear often pleases, especially in the case of those coming from similar priced solid state, which exhibits classic ss harshness and lack of dimensionality - but this pleasing nature comes at the expense of speed and clarity

let’s diaggregate a little

lesser/older tube gear provides

1. rolled off treble
2. little to no deep bass, poor bass damping
3. enriched/expanded midrange and midbass
4. lower sense of drive and rhythm and attack when needed
5. improved imaging and sense of natural ’decay’ on notes (think piano natural reverb)
6. reduced sense of grain and grit in treble and mids (pleasant smoothing effect)

better/top tier tube gear provides

• extended ’hear through’ treble but not forward like all but the best solid state
• very good deep bass with still a somewhat enriched midbass
• somewhat but perhaps less bloomy midrange (than lower tube gear)
• excellent sense of slam and prat (if still a touch less than the best solid state)
• outstanding expanded, ’holographic’ imaging, natural attack and decay of notes, excellent cohesion top to bottom
• clarity without any traces of electronic artifacts

hope this helps those progressing on the experience curve

@jffyg     ”I am going to chime in here and then everyone can attack me. I think that many lesser priced tube based designs can be very musical and soft sounding which compliments many lesser expensive ss designed amps…”

Nothing to attack, it’s a generality. I agree with your assessment. I have swapped a lot of less expensive equipment in my headphone system and early on in my main system. Your assessment is good.

[@jiffyg] I am going to chime in here and then everyone can attack me. I think that many lesser priced tube based designs can be very musical and soft sounding which compliments many lesser expensive ss designed amps. So on the more affordable side of things I believe that tubed equipment sounds pleasing, maybe not super revealing or hyper accurate, but very pleasing. Obviously as the price goes up and the true art and science of sound reproduction is achieved both solid state and tubed designs both hit all the stops, sound stage, intimacy, immediacy and revealing of source information.

At least you know what you like and can obtain it.  Some don't know, and drive themselves nuts rotating one piece of gear to the next never finding what they like.  

In a similar fashion to your findings there can be what I think of as the "golden era" sound to some older tube amps and older receivers, integrated, preamps with old caps and old carbon resistors and such that can be enjoyable to listen to.

Recently helping a friend on his highly modified "lesser cost" Jolida integrated tube amplifier, with old vintage input/driver tubes and newer PSVANE KT88s mixed with some decent interconnect and speaker cables we hit on the same sound you refer to. It's quite musical to listen to, and his total amp investment is about half cost of comparable amps with equal or less musicality. It can be achieved, to your point.   

SPL Elector is a solid state preamp that does a nice job of mimicking an excellent tube preamp.  Beautiful, airy, textured sound with great tone colors.  Also, clear as a bell...

let’s diaggregate a little

lesser/older tube gear provides

1. rolled off treble
2. little to no deep bass, poor bass damping
3. enriched/expanded midrange and midbass
4. lower sense of drive and rhythm and attack when needed
5. improved imaging and sense of natural ’decay’ on notes (think piano natural reverb)
6. reduced sense of grain and grit in treble and mids (pleasant smoothing effect)

@jjss49 

The H/K Citation 1 preamp has bandwidth to over 100KHz. Properly refurbished they give many high end preamps a run for the money. Its real weakness is the phono section won't do LOMC cartridges. H/K was good about bandwidth in their power amps as well (the Citation 5 had bandwidth to 100KHz as well) since Stuart Hegeman (the designer) was a big advocate of wide bandwidth and low impedance power supplies. Your characterization of older equipment isn't entirely accurate.

ralph - first of all happy holidays to you and yours 🎄🎄🎄

re your comment, i never had the pleasure of having citation gear back in the day, am sure they were wide bandwidth as you say ... my thoughts were based on my own, generalized experiences in the late 80’s, 90’s, 00’s using/trying tube pre’s from cj, macintosh, dynaco, cary/dennis had and arc...