Tube Pre-Amp, vs Solid State with Tone Controls/EQ to take edge off the top end?

Hi , I purchased a Schiit Loki 2 weeks ago . Not a perfect solution , but very versital and worth buying . Running a Rogue RP-1 with Telefunken G-73R ( 12AU7’s). Switched out my Had Inspire for some heavily modded Dynakit MK III’s . Tone was hollow and lacked bass . Tried 4 different speakers and even tried NOS GEC KT-88’s . Sounded like crap . On a whim I took a vintage Marantz 2226 and used it for a pre with tone controls . Huge difference ! Hum and hiss decreased dramatically. Hollow tone went away .  So I purchased a Loki . Went back to the Rogue . So Schiit Yiggy to Loki to Rogue to Dynakits . Works great . You’ll need an extra pair of Interconnects of equal quality to what you already have . As far as SS to Tubes or visa versa , I prefer SS pre to tube amp , YMMV.  So I am considering trying a Schiit Freya now . Also when I run high efficiency speakers the hiss is not present with the SS pre . I also don’t feel that I’m loosing any of the tube magic , even with a pair of 12AU7’s that fetch $400 each at Tube Depot ( mine were sourced somewhere else for much less ). If I ran a Mac , I would consider Amarro software for its digital tone prosser . But try the Loki , you’ll probably keep it as I did . Happy Listening , Mike. 

@almarg for the win!  I was reading through this post, thinking a DEQX would solve this.  I too faced the same issues with “awkward” high end frequencies, too bright, but not consistent.  I say “awkward,” because the high end wasn’t consistent on every type of music I listened to.  Sometimes it would be inline with the overall track and other’s it would sound “excited” and cut through the rest of the music.  Sometimes it wouldn’t be enough.  I thought, ok, it’s got to be the room.  Had GIK Acoustics build a room treatment setup, based upon my room dimensions and outputs from REW (Room EQ Wizard), which helped, but there were still some weird high frequencies popping through.  I toed the speakers in, moved them away from the walls, spent a couple months monkeying around with placement.  Then thought, must be the tubes in my preamp.  Bought NOS Mullard’s, frequencies still there.  Additionally, I had an entire Shunyata setup, power cables and conditioning, then someone recommended a DEQX.  Solved.  And when I say solved, I mean, it elevated the entire musicality of the system.  They are pricey, but can be had on the second hand market and there are folks on here that really know how to squeeze the most out of a DEQX.  

Best of luck in addressing it.

Generally speaking, its best to avoid ...
using Tone Controls unless it is a well-reputed high end audio piece. 
Luxman, BAT, etc

I thought Pass made an Integrated 250w amp?

--SimAudio, they make high-end integrated. 
--Rogue Audio, Vincent Audio: both great 
--Quad: came out with a 80wpc (gorgeous) tubed integrated about 8 years ago or so. 
--oh, NAIM! the SuperNait II or maybe they have another high-ender now.
--Pathos are well regarded hybrid tube/ss integrates. Great for most all types of music. But you may want to Bridge their amps, which I've read is the way to go.
Hard to tell since you said you would not reveal the speakers. 

But lets get back to the basics: dirty electricity and distortion.

The lesson learned here is that using cleaner electricity UP FRONT and better POWER CABLES up front that run from the wall into a power isolator (I use a Pole Pig- 8 ports) and/or a conditioner (I use a Shunyata hydra 2port). 
- I heard improvements with every up grade.

**But what really blew me away was my last change:
Changing from a respectable Belden ethernet from Blue Jeans Cable to a Wireworld Starlight into the ethernet renderer.

**After I changed to the Wireworld, all and all grain went way.
The soundstage grew larger, while the musicians came into much better focus, and the PRAT just snapped into place. 
So I cant blame the amp or speakers anymore. 

Don't tone controls introduce phase problems? Simple circuits mitigate phase problems?  And how does one detect how much phase accuracy influences realism in the sound reproduction.?

one of those threads where everybody might be right..
bad power does not help
distortion is bad
maybe the Thiels are a git bright w rising top end, certainly not an odd observation as even die hard Jim Tbfans notice this sometimes ( count me as one and an ocassional owner and I used to sell them ages ago
maybe it is the room
and maybe it is the recording.....where tone controls are a god send....Gold Dust Woman..might be a fair example...

The brightness on top is distortion (trace amounts of higher ordered harmonics to which the ear is keenly sensitive). Tone controls won't fix it.
Tube preamps make less of this distortion than solid state. For this reason a good tube preamp can tone things down, without a loss of speed or highs.
There are tube preamps that can drive the balanced inputs of the Pass no worries. I'd stay away from tone controls if I were you (and fix the problem instead of putting a bandaid on it)- the more circuits you introduce, the more coloration and less transparency. The reason to go with high end audio is to get closer to the music, not further away!

I have a Luxman CL38U-SE. It has quite a few functions to tweek your sound. There is a low frequency switch that allows you to select frequencies from 150, 300 and 600hz. High frequency switch where you can select frequencies from 1.5, 3 and 6kz. The preamp also has old fashioned bass and treble controls. I use a Bryston 2.5 SST2 amp. I get a nice detailed smooth sound from my Aerial 5T's.

As above, B.A.T. and Pass Labs are a sonic match.  Happy Listening!

+1 for Mac preamps with tone controls.....
get Jim Smiths very excellent book, check your setup......

+1 Elizabeth. Really good AC conditioning will calm down a bright high end and leave the music to be heard. Initially thought my speakers were too bright and went to work toning them down with tubes, tweaks, then got the power right and voila. The hint that led me in the right direction was that after midnight SQ. 
That AC 'noise" is like white noise and the effects are nothing short of horrific. 

Dep14:

i use use a BAT VK 3ix preamp and a Parasound A21 amp, with PAD Venustas speaker cable. 

Well, I am not a believer in power cleaning etc.  Many MFG want you to plug straight into the wall, I have a dedicated 20amp outlet etc.  

I appreciate many do.  I've used these electronics with a few speakers.  Never an issue with brightness.  It's the speakers, I am aware of that so just looking to tweak it a shade.

I don't want to get off track, but felt I should at least respond.  

Agreeing w Elizabeth on cleaning power first. You have a good pre. All a softer tube pre could do for you is roll off the top which you’ll soon find boring. A neutral tube pre will leave you in the same place.
 I have found the latest generation of AQ power products to accomplish what you are looking for without rolling the highs off. In fact the Hurricane power cord is the first high end cord that I can say provided fundamental benefits along the lines you are looking for. I am somewhat sceptical on power cords but not this one. FWIW

@last_lemming What BAT combo are you using?

BAT has always interested me.  

I have Thiels and I used a BAT pre with SS amp to "take the edge" off the highs. A bit of tube rolling dialed it right in.

the BAT is fully balanced too. 

The Loki certainly seems well worth trying. One downside, though, might result from the fact that it only provides unbalanced inputs and outputs, and presumably has an unbalanced internal signal path, while I believe both of your Pass components are fully balanced.

In any event, if the Loki proves to not be to your liking, and you would be willing to consider spending several thousand dollars on a remarkably versatile and transparent solution, you may want to consider a DEQX, www.deqx.com

It accomplishes equalization via sophisticated digital signal processing, without the traditional side-effects and limited adjustability of analog equalization, and can do a whole lot more than just serving as an equalizer.

Most models provide digital inputs and outputs as well as balanced and unbalanced analog inputs and outputs, as well as the ability to select between multiple sources, so inserting it into the signal path before or after your preamp are both possibilities that could be considered. Some models can also be used as a preamp, which is what I do with my DEQX HDP-5.

For a lot more commentary by DEQX users see this thread:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/is-deqx-a-game-changer

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al

2nd on the Loki!  I use it primarily when listening at low volumes.  Nice little piece at a fantastic price.

@jetter thanks!  I wasn't aware of the Schitt Loki.  Seems like a nice inexpensive way to see if an EQ would do the trick.  May order one up here this week.

dep14, I do use a tubed pre, but if all you really want to do is to take a little off the top end, I wouldn't think twice about getting the Schitt Loki for $149.  I have not used it but other members here have and like it.  I have the little Sys volume control and its fine for its intended use.

I'd like to ever so slightly de-tune the top end on my speaker. Just take it down a slight bit (usually only when above 90db)

There are tube preamps that can sound like SS based on their design. They can have a hard top-end and extended highs, or they may have fast rectification and lack the tube qualities to pair with your amp.
   So you'll need to choose wisely or audition. But I agree to try using a tube preamp.

@stereo5 The idea of a tube pre-amp with a solid state amp does make a lot of logical sense to me. Could be the direction I head.

I’m pretty close to what I want, so obviously always that fear of selling off the pass and regretting it. But, what you are doing makes a lot of sense. I do like deep, tight, punchy bass so giving up a solid state power amp worries me a bit.

That said, a few years back I tried a McIntosh amp with some JBL speakers (it was either a 302 or 352), I ended up taking it back as I was unimpressed with the bass response.  I was super bummed as I've always wanted to own Mcintosh.  Another brand I want to try is Balanced Audio Technology.  But, I do really like this 250.8 in particular.  Wondering if something like an ARC pre-amp would pair nicely?


@steakster, I’m fortunate in that my room is fully treated. But agree it makes a huge difference. I was playing around with bass traps today and had pulled them from the front of my room and just ran the rear ones. Ended up putting them back.

I use a Mac tube pre with tone controls with a Mac solid state amp = Heaven. When I used to sell Infinity back in the late 70’s, the hotter sounding EMIM midrange and EMIT tweeter could take your ears off.

I have always used a tube pre with solid state amplification. I think it’s the best of both.

Personally I like the synergy between a tube pre and a SS amp. I have a CJ pre with Threshold amps. My speakers are Infinity RS-1s which I've "heard" have a hot top end. Never noticed this myself.