Hi All, First off, I appreciate all the feedback. I am learning from all of the responses. The realization has sunk in, for sure, that there is a myriad of efficient speakers out there just as there is a plethora of less efficient speakers. I lost count after the 14th suggestion of something else to try other than Cornwalls! hoosierinohio wrote, among other gems: Otherwise, load up your amp and other accoutrements and head to the store.
This is a very good reminder as I was reading the loving comments about horns and the idea that very small power amps sounded good with them. The McIntosh receiver I heard the Cornwalls with was 200 WPC. I was sitting about ten feet away from the speakers and kept feeling like they were too close. Someone suggested trying the Heresy's; maybe that would be more to my scale along with a lower wattage amp.
mijostyn wrote:
...the Fyne F502SP is an excellent speaker for tube amps. It optimizes the British approach to speakers and creates a beautiful if small soundstage. Very detailed. It is not as efficient as the Cornwall and will not go quite as loud but plenty loud enough. It is for certain more detailed than the Cornwall and it's image has better focus. Bass wise they are about the same. The construction quality of the Fyne is a tad better. They are actually a great value... I appreciated that you took the time to explain how you heard the Cornwalls to be different from the Fynes. That helped me to understand the difference. My concern is that having lived with three different sets of Maggies and two different sets Thiels, I am locked into that sort of sound. Maybe horn speakers are too far afield for me and I need to find an efficient non-horn speaker that only gets me half way towards the Klipsch/Cornwall type of sound. Again, I appreciate everyone's comments and keep em coming! Dsper |
Altec lansing malibu 843a or an electrovoice interface c or d or an electrovoice carlton, georgian, or cardinal. Also you should listen to a large klipsch made prior to 1981 like the belle or k horn.
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+1 for @hoosierinohio. ". .true toe curler, sweet wrap around hug." Tasty |
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@hoosierinohio Very nice analogies! Keep up the good work... |
The CW IV does have two internal braces between the motor board and the rear panel. This is what I mentioned above and it has clearly cleaned up the midbass resonance the older cornwalls were known for.
Oz
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@james633 , The Cornwalls are very nicely put together for a box speaker. The quality of the veneers and cloth are excellent. As for bracing, the front panel is braced by the woofer and horns, the sides, bottom and top are narrow and stiff. If they resonate at all it would be upe where the midrange horn is which is, by virtue of it's construction isolated from the enclosure. The back panel is the only one that might benefit from bracing. Just tap it with a mallet and see if it rings anywhere. If it does see if you can identify the frequency. In the old day the rear panel was screwed on and the speakers were mounted from the rear. Not sure how they are doing it today. But, if you think they need bracing you can always add it. My guess is they do not particularly if you are using subs.
With the active cross over you have Cornwalls with good subs would be absolute killer! |
Oz,
Just lack of bracing is what I was thinking about. It does not seem like there is any side bracing that is typical for higher end speakers. Think B&W “matrix” bracing.
I have always rationalized bracing to be important in my head but have never tried bracing in isolation so hard to say how much it matters at normal listening volumes (I am not a loud listener. 85db Max)
Good point about the ports. I overlooked the value of that.
Anyway I value dynamic (transients and impact) above all things and still want to hear these and possible buy them as a total step change to what I am used too. At $6k these are a cheap option is our crazy world lol.
I follow your posts and many others that say they are good so I assume they are.
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The key is the match. I used to have a pair of Maggie 3.5R's. I found them as responsive as a giant hunk of granite. They loved the power and took a high current to drive. When you hit the sweet spot though, wow. It was such an exact speaker that you could hear people talking in the background of lots of the Beatles recordings. After several other trades and evolutions, I moved to the Altec Lansing A7-500's (16 ohm). Tried these using the same amp as the Maggie's and felt the sound quality went down. The horn could be piercing and the woofer wompy. When hooked up to a 6 watt SET however, its the sweetest, most wonderful sounding system I have ever heard, a true toe curler.
The horn sound that was there using the higher power amp went away and the bass is a sweet reach around hug. This combination actually sounds good at lower volumes and gets adequately loud enough that my wife can hear me, from our second floor, very well, from a sound dampened basement (I blame the hvac). If you are buying new, you need to ask to audition. If its a really good place that you have done business with, this shouldn't be an issue. Otherwise, load up your amp and other accoutrements and head to the store. If still denied, buy somewhere else. I view this as going to buy a car without a test drive. What some places want you to do is sit in their car and just say vroom, vroom and imagine. Get as close as you to what your system will be prior to buying and believe your ears and not someone else's. The Cornwall's as sensitive as they are, they just need the proper amp. Using pipes as a metaphor, your Maggie's are like the drain pipes coming off of Hoover dam and the Cornwall's are like the pipes in a cathedral organ. Each beautiful but totally different.
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The additional bracing and horn ports of the CW IV have erased the boxiness of Cornwalls of yore. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by poor build quality of this speaker. Sure the xover could have better quality parts, but that's all I can think of that I would change. And the sound is so good that I don't even give that much thought either.
The exterior fit and finish seems very appropriate for a 6K dollar speaker.
Oz
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I was intrigued by the Cornwall IV and went to my local dealer that had the Forte 3 and the la-scala on the floor (no cornwalls). I am also a long time Thiel owner (2.4).
The fortes were just hooked up to an integra reciver and sounded pretty bad to me. No life and lacked impact in the bass. Mids were nice enough, wide, and nothing stood out as terrible. Highs were clean enough but nothing but the facts kind of sound. As a whole the speaker did not impressive me in anyway at all.
I brought a small headphone setup as a reference (helps me demo, but I look like a total weirdo...) and switched back and forth as I often do at home (late night, kids and family life calls for headphones sometimes). Anyway the setup sounded bad enough my headphones sounded amazing in comparison (the headphones normally sound bad right after my home speaker rig).
It turned me off enough I did not demo the la-scalas.
I am 99% sure the integra was most of the problem and could ask to have them hooked up to proper gear but I am not sure I will bother. I am still interested in the Cornwall iv. The build leaves a lot to be desired based on YouTube videos but could be something fun to play with regardless of the poor build.
Not sure what to think as the Cornwall IV and to a much lesser degree the fortes have been getting universal praise more or less.
The question I ask myself is, Are the Cornwall IV really a good speaker or does the build hold them back?
I would be running them with duel subs using an active crossover but I think all systems need subs....
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There are so many excellent speakers it's hard to say what's best. Then you have rooms, amplifiers, dacs, sources... It's tough to be an audiophile, lol. Everything will be a different flavor, with some areas excelling over others and some not as much.
If I had unlimited funds, I'd probably try them all to find the "perfect" sound. As it is, I have very happily "settled" for Cornwall IV's and a Luxman L509X and enjoy wonderful music with a three mile smile. I love horns so some bias there, but I feel the Cornwalls are the best there is in their price range.
If you want something that sounds like Cornwalls then get them! If you want less 'in you face ' try Heresy IVs with a pair of quality subs. They are also beautiful sounding but more subtle. |
I don't have experience with the Cornwall IV but I do have some experience with horn design, and imo the midrange horn in the Cornwall IV looks like it would have less coloration than the old-style horn.
I have owned KG 3.5s, Cornwall IIs, Cornscalas, Forte IIIs and Klipschorns. You are correct, these are the least colored horns that I have heard. Oz |
@ozzy62 wrote: "Many people, and not saying this is you, conflate earlier Cornwall versions with the IV. They are very different animals."
I don't have experience with the Cornwall IV but I do have some experience with horn design, and imo the midrange horn in the Cornwall IV looks like it would have less coloration than the old-style horn.
Duke
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but i am quite surprised to hear you say the x series lacked resolution to your ears
I didn't say the X3 wasn't revealing, it is. What I meant was that I disagree that the CW IV is not revealing, because it is too. I think my one disappointment with the X3 might have been using a 12" driver to cover the midrange. The Cornwall just oozes tone and texture and sounds more real, whereas the Spatial sounded more refined and like hi-fi. It, of course, comes down to a matter of taste because there are tradeoffs with most speakers. Oz |
I don't think there is a tube amp that sounds like a Cornwall .
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I got on to mention Tannoy, so add a +1 if you're keeping a tally. |
I sold my spatial audio X3s, which were mighty fine speakers, for a pair of Cornwall IVs. I disagree about how revealing these speakers are. ozzy i have never heard a spatial x line speaker ... the new m sapphire series does have a different high freq driver... but i am quite surprised to hear you say the x series lacked resolution to your ears i find my m3s to be plenty revealing... this coming from a user of quad esl 63s, proacs w ribbons and big maggies! yes you are correct i don’t know all the ins and outs of the latest klipsch cornwall versions, so i may be speaking from memories of hearing past cornwalls (not in my system, i have never owned a pair) anyhow... happy listening |
I'm guessing budget plays a role?
I run a pair of Classic Audio Loudspeakers model T-3. 16 ohms, response to 20Hz, 98dB 1 watt/1 meter. 60 watts is plenty of power on them in most rooms!
You might consider another alternative though. If you were to get a set of Audiokinesis Swarm subs to handle the bass, your main speaker would then only need to get down to 60Hz or so. There are plenty of speakers that are easy to drive with 60 watts that would then do the trick- a set of Devore O96s for example, Klipsch RM51s or Tannoy Eatons. You might also contact Duke at Audiokinesis as his speaker designs have always been easy to drive and tube-friendly.
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dsper, the Fyne F502SP is an excellent speaker for tube amps. It optimizes the British approach to speakers and creates a beautiful if small soundstage. Very detailed. It is not as efficient as the Cornwall and will not go quite as loud but plenty loud enough. It is for certain more detailed than the Cornwall and it's image has better focus. Bass wise they are about the same. The construction quality of the Fyne is a tad better. They are actually a great value.
Their big brother, the F1 is drop dead gorgeous in Walnut Burl Veneer.
Pi speakers are great if you want to build them. The Fyne's are two steps above. Spatial Audio speakers are not my cup of tea and I am a dipole guy (ESLs). Then there is the Tannoy Sterling. Very similar to the Fyne it really needs subwoofers to shine but shine it does. The JBL 4349 monitor is a great speaker designed as a studio monitor. It is certainly the loudest loudspeaker of the group and if Rock is your thing a real consideration. The JBL is solid state while the others are tube if you get my drift. There must be 100 others. |
Volti Audio--Razz and Rival--could be worth a look. |
+1 for Pi Speakers.
Anyone considering Tannoy should look into Fyne Audio, founded by ex-Tannoy engineers. |
Tannoy Prestige Gold Reference
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@jjss49
I sold my spatial audio X3s, which were mighty fine speakers, for a pair of Cornwall IVs. I disagree about how revealing these speakers are. The only two areas I can think of that the X3 pull ahead of the CW are refinement and bass extension, but the Cornwall is very good here as well.
Where the CW IV shines is immediacy, midrange palpability, and involvement. This speaker is far better in those regards than the spatial. I closed the bass gap by adding two sealed 15” subs:
Many people, and not saying this is you, conflate earlier Cornwall versions with the IV. They are very different animals.
Oz
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spatial m3 sapphires
much more precise and revealing than cornwalls but has the slam and speed and palpability in spades - quite efficient too (but not as efficient as the klipsch's) |
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sound best when the axis crosses several feet behind my head
Maybe I should give them another try. I was able to pull them away from the front wall but not sure how much I had them toed in. Ultimately, I thought the Cornwalls were not especially resolving.....
how powerful is tube amp
Right now, I have a CJ LP66S (60 wpc) but only because I have a CJ 17LS2 preamp. Figured I needed to find the speakers first. I have a pair of Tyler Acoustics MM5X's and generally like their sound but want something better. Thanks, Dsper |
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The CW IV is very sensitive to setup and placement, very chameleon like. In my room they sound best when the axis crosses several feet behind my head. Too much or too little toe in can make them sound edgy or mediocre. But get it right and it is glorious.
You won’t find a conventional speaker that can do what a well designed and setup horn can. Of course they aren’t for everyone, but I say take another listen and ask to reposition them if possible.
Oz |
dsper, how powerful is tube amp you are thinking about? |
