Tonearm mount to the plinth vs arm board vs rotating arm board vs isolated tower
Hello,
I am rebuilding a Garrard 301 and looking for a plinth. I am planning to buy 3-4 tonearms to try. I would like to know which is the best way moving forward.
Is there a difference between mounting a tonearm directly on a solid plinth vs arm board (same vs different materials) vs rotating arm board vs isolated tower.
Dear @atmasphere : You are rigth and I know it because I used and use somerthing similar in my big loudspeakers. This is what you can read in my Agon virtual system:
"""
LOUDSPEAKERS.
ADS L 2030: This is a Full Range Professional Monitor that I own for many years.
These L 2030 was designed by Mike Kelly ( Aerial speakers ) and till today it match all my priorities.
It is " heavy " tweaked to do that: first it has " three hands " ( internally ) of a insulation/antivibrational treatment ( like a white paint. I can't remember the ingredients. ) from Acoustical Magic Company ( it works marvelous ) inside all the box ( a big one box: 58-5/8" ( H ) x 27-1/4" (W) x 13-1/8" (D) ). """#
Well, I use it too in the Denon/Technics platters and Denon's metal chasis.
nandric, fo.Q tape is a piezoelectric vibration damping tape that works great on turntables, tone arms, and speakers. Very effective.
Regarding platter mass, and materials, the differences are obvious and easy to hear. My Miller Carbon turntable is based on the Teres Audio platter and bearing. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 The design of this table allows the platter to be lifted off and swapped out very easily.
Designer Chris Brady made four different platters, all identical except for construction and materials. The platters were solid acrylic, acrylic with lead shot, a solid synthetic material, and lead shot loaded Cocobolo. Chris did a demo playing the same music on each of the four platters. It was easy- and impressive- to hear the improvement from each to the next.
Platter mass definitely does improve dynamics, drive, and bass extension and slam. Going to a stiffer more highly damped material is even better. Each and every one of these changes affects the sound.
Try the tape. Its cheap. You'll be surprised how well it works.
Not sure what is best for your turntable but in my experience you can get great results putting the tonearm on a tower separated from the platter/plinth. In fact I have the motor, flywheel, platter/plinth, & tonearm tower all separate. Each "component" sits on Isoachostic feet. The flywheel, platter/plinth, & tonearm tower are on the same platform, while the motor is on a separate platform.
Not sure what is best for your turntable but in my experience you can get great results putting the tonearm on a tower separated from the platter/plinth. In fact I have the motor, flywheel, platter/plinth, & tonearm tower all separate. Each "component" sits on Isoachostic feet. The flywheel, platter/plinth, & tonearm tower are on the same platform, while the motor is on a separate platform.
Do you mean toneam pod ? Who made them for you ? Images maybe @boxer12 ?
Essentially the problem is that the tonearm and cartridge are designed to have resonant frequencies Fr around 8-12 HZ (well below the lowest speaker frequencies) which ARE in the range of *very low frequency* seismic type vibration coming from the floor. So, that structural vibration can excite the natural frequencies Fr of the tonearm and cartridge. Sadly, damping techniques are not very successful for these *very low frequencies*. If they were LIGO wouldn’t have had to wait 20 years for the development of sufficiently good isolation techniques to observe gravity waves, they could have used damping techniques. But isolating the turntable from seismic forces is very effective, especially when the Fr of the isolating system is 3 Hz or lower.
The ''compounds similar to paint'' as well ''the isolation'' will not do. There are many kinds of isolations as well many kinds of paint. Problem of notions without boundary conditions are the same as sets theoretic problem of extension. ''Set of all sets '' is example of paradoxes in the set theory. One need to somehow determine what one is talking about, Otherwise quantifier ''all '' can imply the whole universe + the added parallel one.
Huh? What the ding dong? 😳 When I use the word isolation I’m referring to the only real kind of isolation. If you’re still unsure what I mean let’s see a show of hands.
Geoffkat, I have oil + spike isolation in my Kuzma and pneumatic feet isolation under my Technics SP 10 with Obsidian plinth. In addition to mentioned Kuzma isolation I have sand filled base plate which is isolated with 3 spikes from the rack. Which one would you call ''real'' ?
Have you guys ever seen Halcro’s photos of the interior of his Halcro preamplifier? Something like that in black.
Yes- we donated one of our Atma-Sphere model 208 turntables to the local audiophile society and someone there used a 'paint' like that on it. It was kindof unnecessary, you can walk up to the platter and thwock it with your forefinger tensioned by your thumb and not hear it in the speakers.
You might be able to get good results with a separate arm pod, but you will get better results if the arm mounting isn't separate from the plinth.
Dear chris, The French cardinal La Rochfaucauld was visited by an lady who asked: ''father is it an sin that I admire my own beauty ? Cardinal: ''my dear lady illusion is not an sin''. You used qualification ''illusion'' but without any argumentation. My ''real suspensions'' feel insulted by your comment (grin).
You used qualification ’’illusion’’ but without any argumentation.
Nikola - It is not possible to "argue".... "illusions" they are personal and definitely not rigid 8^0
But if the court allows, I can provide ..ah...representation, an example.
"Oh my Lord ...Good God Nikola....Miles Davis is right there playing in front of me....... in my panic room" .aka - Dads Hole.
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@atmasphere a specific comment in your post above is in reference to Halcro’s system.
You might be able to get good results with a separate arm pod, but you will get better results if the arm mounting isn’t separate from the plinth.
We know the "Plinth" by definition, is represented by the lowest member of the base. A block serving as a base.
In Halcro’s system the base (Plinth) for his turntable kit that uses armpods.... is the shelf itself. Which in itself ....the shelf .....is attached to the load bearing wall.
So all his tonearms/armpod’s and turntable are attached to this plinth (aka) "a shelf" 8^0
This was covered in detail on the Copernican thread.
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and GK Not sure what question or answer you are referring to, or if it was even directed to me. I was replying solely to Nikola’s post. I will say however.
Blessed is the Audiophile that finds Audio Nirvana on a budget.
Kind of like you and your Walkman that you discuss here frequently. A shining excellent example for everyone to follow.
This was covered in detail on the Copernican thread.
I remember something about that. If the devices (such as the arm pod or the base of the platter system) use isomerics or the like between them and the plinth that **will** result in coloration. If carefully hard-coupled to the plinth the coloration is reduced. But using an arm pod is problematic as its likely that it will not be perfectly rigid and dead as the application requires.
Nikola - re your magnets question. to best understand the French Connection and answer your question well. There is a brand new for 2020 AudioGon La Platine thread at this link.
I believe you will find your answers. But if you still have questions, prefer you ask them there to keep the pertinent information centralized.
This thread is about armboards and armpods. La Platine has a solid Aluminum Block Pillar that pivots. It is bolted to the top of the Plinth using serious bolts.
@atmasphere
Atmasphere
I will let @halcro (Henry) address any comments questions relating to his system.
ct0517 and GK Not sure what question or answer you are referring to, or if it was even directed to me. I was replying solely to Nikola’s post. I will say however.
Blessed is the Audiophile that finds Audio Nirvana on a budget.
Kind of like you and your Walkman that you discuss here frequently. A shining excellent example for everyone to follow.
Slowly, inevitably, this thread is backsliding into the old argument that was the central topic in the Copernican thread. I felt that over time (and months of haggling), Halcro's approach actually began to look like an idea I could like, so that eventually there was very little to argue about. And I went off on my rigid way with my tonearm pivot firmly connected to my bearing. It's easier for walking around.
Halcro, My TT is a labor of love. I designed, machined, & built it myself over a couple year period.
The platter is 4" thick solid 6061 aluminum (powder coated) with a 1/4 inch of delrin bolted directly on top.
The plinth is 2" thick, also 6061 but dampened with soundcoat material from parts connexion.
The bearing is a little complicated and I’m not going to get into specifics, but the thrust portion & the sidewall portion are separated. Both are attached to the platter with as little interface as safely possible. It is made of aluminum with a very thin hard coat material in the "wear" sections. It is absolutely smooth without noise or "vibrations".
Tonearm tower (or pod) is made of aluminum, brass, ceramic, & delrin. I have it set up in a tripod manner for rigidity.
Flywheel is also powder coated 6061 aluminum as is the motor cover. The motor itself is a Hurst.
The record clamp is delrin, anodized aluminum, & acrylic stuffed with quartz powder.
I purchased the tonearm from ViRa (12" version)
Although I’m sure there is better, it really does sound great. At some point I’ll dampen the platter with brass or lead-shot type materials, & probably do the same to the plinth & flywheel.
I remember this Japanese super heavy stuff from Toho, i’d like to buy one of these for Victor TT-101 and Denon DP-80, tonearm base also looks very nice.
Chak, To your knowledge, is Toho still in the business of selling those accessories? The Torqueo stuff is beautiful (like a seashell, apparently) but not as substantial as Toho's.
That Toho stuff is fabulous.....👍 I don't believe they are still active....? Thuchan has one of their TONEARM PODS...immensely heavy 💪 I think it is made from cast-iron 🤔 But I've never seen their turntable bases before.... That company realised that weight/mass was a critical element in the separation of turntable base and arm pods 🧐 That was also the fundamental principle espoused in my COPERNICAN THREAD nearly 10 years ago..... And the reason I designed my arm-pods as CAST BRONZE. HERE are the finished armpods. What I DIDN'T appreciate at the time....was that the same principle of weight/mass applies to the TURNTABLE PLINTH 🥴 I began with a MINIMALIST PLINTH made of stainless steel as described in my NUDE TURNTABLE Thread. After learning my lessons.....I decided to design a turntable 'cradle' out of cast Bronze or cast Iron but the prices I received were very high. But a SOLID GRANITE CRADLE, whilst not as heavy as cast metal.....was GOOD ENOUGH and relatively affordable 🤗
I agree with @lewm about the 'beauty' of the Torqueo products....but the MASS is just not there 😢
Chak, To your knowledge, is Toho still in the business of selling those accessories? The Torqueo stuff is beautiful (like a seashell, apparently) but not as substantial as Toho’s.
@lewm No, not anymore, they are gone. Toho also made their strange looking tonearm with bamboo arm wand (it’s on the same picture with cast-iron bases).
utilises SPZ which dissipates any energy between 4 and 100hz internally at a molecular level, but is completely rigid.
Nice story....🤗 Unfortunately....a fairytale 🤥 Not only will 4Hz go straight through your plinth...but every frequency from 1Hz-10Hz will do likewise (watch the Mark Doehmann video again). My turntable however, sits on a HERZAN ACTIVE ISOLATION STAND which cancels all vibrations from 0.5Hz-100Hz.
Granite rings like a bell due to its crystalline structure.
Can you please explain its crystalline structure which enables this? Is it similar to bronze or CAST-IRON which are in fact used for bells? Should you perhaps inform Toho who foolishly made their TURNTABLE CRADLES from cast-iron....🤔
And if you really believe that 'tapping' a material to see if it 'rings' is the criterion for turntable design.....I look forward to your new plinth made of plasticine to support your platter made of styrofoam 😝
Very good - but I prefer my music full range, if I didn’t want to hear anything below 100hz I would listen to Tin Cans.
Your herzan cant move fast enough to remove all vibration - its superficial.
Nice story....🤗 Unfortunately....a fairytale 🤥
Thank you, I like fairy stories.
For those of a technical bent, and who like fairy stories, google SPZ and grain sliding - there is plenty of interesting research from reputable institutions such as Cranfield et al. You are right with 4hz - I meant 10hz-100hz
Granite rings like a bell due to its crystalline structure.
Can you please explain its crystalline structure which enables this? Is it similar to bronze or CAST-IRON which are in fact used for bells? Should you perhaps inform Toho who foolishly made their TURNTABLE CRADLESfrom cast-iron....🤔
"Ring like a bell" is a euphemism for nasty resonance that induces ear cancer. If you cant hear it then you are good to go. By the way, the german word for ear cancer is ohrenkrebs.
Halcro. Quite a number of people have reported on the efficacy of the Herzan stands and their equivalents. Out of curiosity what do the three graphs, V, H1 & H2 represent? Velocity and frequency?
How does the stand reduce self noise in the TT structure itself?
@richardkrebs The V stands for 'Vertical Vibrations' (Up and Down) H1 stands for 'Horizontal Vibrations in One Plane' (Side to Side) H2 stand for 'Horizontal Vibrations in the Other Plane (Side to Side). Therefore providing Vibration Isolation in the Six Degrees of Freedom.
The vibration isolation performance for both platforms is made possible by its unique technology, consisting of piezoelectric sensors, actuators, and control electronics. These carefully engineered components (Made in Switzerland) allow the platforms to dynamically respond to vibrations in the environment, enabling sub-hertz vibration isolation (starting at 0.5 Hz) in all six degrees of freedom.
How does the stand reduce self noise in the TT structure itself?
I don't believe it can...... In WTB Forum....there are several interesting Threads which appear to show that Active Isolation Stands may have problems with the 'self-noise' or 'self-vibrations' of Belt-Drive or Idler-Drive Turntables. Direct-Drive Turntables appear to have no problems with self-noise or movement generation.
It’s customary to describe six degrees of motion as follows,
The y axis (vertical direction), z axis (first horizontal direction), x axis (second horizontal direction), plus three rotational directions, rock, roll and twist, around the x, z and y axes, respectively. (There is actually an infinite number of directions in the horizontal plane.) Let’s twist again like we did last summer! 🕺🏻 Think of seismic type forces moving the component like a wave passing under a boat out on the ocean.
lewm"Geoff, Enough already with the seismic forces. Have you figured out that no one is listening?"
Everyone is free to post hear within the rules established by the forum it is not for you to limit, restrict, or discourage any poster or contributor from writing, sharing, or contributing his thoughts to this group. You're objections to Geoff can be forwarded to the moderators who monitor, control, and supervise the forums and who in they're independent judgement, analysis and assessment will decide the proper response to you're concerns.
I agree with clearthink's clear thinking. And just because Geoff sport's a Kilt, we should not make fun of that, either. But come on ..... along with pumps and stockings????
Dear friends: """
use isomerics or the like between them and the plinth that **will** result in coloration. If carefully hard-coupled to the plinth the coloration is reduced. But using an arm pod is problematic as its likely that it will not be perfectly rigid and dead as the application requires. """
@atmasphere is rigth with his statement that in theory is true but things are that several professional TT designers/manufacturers choosed the arm pod alternative as Kuzma between many others.
Could be almost imposible for any of us detect those " colorations " atmasphere speaks because we need that the same TT can " accept " to run the tonearm/cartridge with an external arm pod/tower and at the same time that that same tonearm/cartridge can be mounted in the TT with integrated arm board to its plyth. Measure it can be easy but really hear those colorations differences is another way matters.
Way before Halcro or other Agoner goes to the TT nude type of set up I did it with my Denon TTs and latter on with the Technics. With the Denon the set up were really nude no plinth at all and obviously external arm pod and quality level performance differences against a plinthed same TTs was really high and easy to detect it.
It's not true that in a DD TT using any kind of anti-vibration mechanism/palttforms the self generated resonances of that TT does not exist: always are there but we have a very high resolution room/system and the level knowledge to know what to look for through a evaluation whole process.
Later on on those DD TT's I decided to mount it nude seated through tip toes in a 50+ kg of 3 separated/different ( for each TT. ) lovely stones marble, onyx and granite and @dover is rigth : granite " ring like a bell " and I know because my first stones plinths were not 50+kg but around 20kg and that's why I decided to go way higher.
Yes @dover like you I prefer to listen that audio signal lower than 100hz.
Obviously that the best option for the OP is to go with the orthodox way mounting the tonearms through the plynth but at the end and as I said we can't be totally sure that in the external arm towers we can detect the added signal colorations. So his question is really open and up to him.
I heartily recommend that everyone make their own recordings in high fidelity. A nice tape machine and a good set of microphones are required. Find a nice-sounding venue and make a recording of something that you can stand to listen to over and over. Then have it mastered and pressed onto LP. A test is fine- you don't have to make a full run.
At least then you have a reference; you were there, you have the master tapes, you know what it sounds like.
Or you could use a mirror mounted on the item under test, a laser and a sound source to demonstrate how a separate arm pod will not vibrate the same as the plinth onto which the platter is mounted, even if both use the same construction techniques!
In the case of the first you have a subjective means to winnowing out how a separate arm pod is a failed concept; in the latter you have a means of measuring it.
I do agree with Halcro on one thing:
What I DIDN'T appreciate at the time....was that the same principle of weight/mass applies to the TURNTABLE PLINTH 🥴
A plinth that has low mass can't also be rigid and dead (IOW damped with no ringing). In this it appears that Halcro has realized that some of what I've said is true- so my challenge to him is to go ahead and finish the job- build a plinth that has the weight and mass, that is 'dead' and provides a means of mounting the arm **directly** to it. So far what I've seen of his efforts appear artistically wonderful, but lack a bit of science. If you're going to go through all that work, why not try both principles? Of course the same construction techniques should be used so as to minimize variables, otherwise its apples and oranges!
The arguments just go round and round like a record. Most of us manage to get good sound and most of us have no idea why. Most of us think we have things figured out as to why our systems sound good to the point we will pick up our figurative sword and vehemently argue our point on boards like this and yet what we won’t admit is that we are always looking for the change that will make everything better. I don’t claim to be an exception. I fit all of the above. That said, I think that a cast iron or similar inert plinth weighing 200 lbs or more will NOT make a motor unit-bearing-platter-tonearm interface sound better. If someone gets good sound with such an inert massive plinth it is by fluke, not design. I am thinking of Oswald Mills cast iron plinth for the SP10 as I write this. It might very well sound great with that particular direct drive deck but I doubt the same would hold true for most other designs, particularly idlers. I like to give this example-John Atkinson can measure loudspeaker enclosure resonance and predict the impact of same on the speaker’s sound quality til the cows come home and Mike Fremer can tap on the plinth while a record is playing and tell us what he thinks this means until the swallows return to San Capistrano but neither test means squat. And further, a totally inert loudspeaker enclosure built like a sarcophagus of poured concrete will likely sound.....dead. Aluminum rings and yet people listen to Magicos and swear to themselves that with all that expensive space age technology and expense and machining, well they gotta sound good. I don’t think they do but if you do, I would suggest it is despite the space age aluminum enclosure, not because of it. Vibrations have to be tuned and managed, not eliminated. Just as a microphone transducer vibrates, just as a loudspeaker driver vibrates, just as soundwaves emanate from vibrations, so too does a stylus/cantilever. No one argues that those vital vibrations need to be deadened, but then many try to deaden everything else. Fremer gave Rega’s latest top turntable a rave review. He quoted them as stating their design principle was to keep in mind that a turntable, at the end of the day, is a vibration measuring device. And then out of habit he rapped his hairy knuckles against the plinth and noted it was ’lively" Arghhh. When will we ever learn? Harbeth, Volti, DeVore, Audio Note, and many others have this figured out when it comes to loudspeakers. I am not a Rega guy but Rega has if figured out. But on and on it will go, round and round.
I must be doing something right, if both Geoff and Clearthink are angry at me. Clearthink even used his signature triplicate warning system. (I mustn't "limit, restrict, or discourage...") Did you think that Geoff is some shrinking violet who needs to be defended lest he walk away in tears? Here's the thing, Geoff: Have you considered that we are riding on an enormous ball that is circling the sun at 67,000 mph, while also rotating about its own axis at about 1,000 mph, at the equator? My point is that the earth is our platform and everything is subject to those seismic vibrations with which you are so obsessed. Relatively speaking we are all in a sort of spaceship that is subject to the seismic forces. Therefore, relatively speaking there is no net motion due to seismic forces of a turntable with respect to a tonearm or cartridge or vice-versa.I'm surprised at you for getting so hot so quickly, but perhaps I struck a nerve.
@fsonicsmith Nothing is wrong with Aluminum; to the contrary, it is a superb material for almost anything mechanical (there is a reason supercars are built from it). It rings because it is very stiff, and that is usually a good thing, but because it is very stiff (and light), it is very easily damped. So if you dampen Aluminum, you get the best of both worlds; stiffness yet well damped composite. Steel or cast iron is a different matter. It is stiff, but weighty and therefore hard to damped, usually not a good material for anything audio (unless you are building a bell).
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