Bet this conversation has been had by every generation as new music evolves. 

South Korea POP is becoming a model globally ...

They manufacture the artist as well as the public by controlling all steps of the product...

The lyrics are no more created by an independant FREE poet or artist as Cohen, Dylan, Lennon, Mitchell etc were but the young talent is taken under a controlling corporate wings ...

Is their lyrics will be bad? No not necessarily bad...

Is their lyrics will be good ? No for the most of them...

A manufactured set of lyrics tailor made for an artist and a tailor made public all controlled by the corporation made the artist work and sell...

But forget poetry and inspired music...

Thats was Beato point as i understood it and my point ...

It is not and was never about taste or old age nostalgia...

The change in the music industry goes hand in hand with a change deeper in the social fabric threefold organisation( culture/education-political participation-economoic association ) this change consist in the reduction and flattening  of the threefold layers of the social fabric by corporate powers and A.I. to a single totally controlled unique layer... Over our head and under our feet as individuals we are taken in charge... ( the events of the last years are  revelatory about that )

There is no free poet in a hive...the lyrics of the hive are neither good or bad they are standardized and tailor made...

No nostalgia for me about Dylan or the Beatles , no hate of any young actual artist... I even mention one i just discovered above...

Simply most lyrics on the chart sucks in a way or in another...

This does not means that there is no more genius in music ...

Korean Music Companies Are Exporting More Than K-Pop: How They’re Changing the Global Music Business

If you want to read this instructive article:

use the adress in the web site : "Browse a cleaner web"

Are folks here too dumb to use ChatGPT ourselves if we wanted to?

?

Whats your point ?

@mapman , +1 on The Bird's The Word.  I had that very same thought when I was recently watching a rerun of Full Metal Jacket on Flix.  An example of yester-year's lyrics that were not extremely good.

@immatthewj

I would confess not all that much. But in a way that makes my point. During the 60s and 70s you didn’t have to search high and low or put a great deal of effort into finding great songs. In fact, it was hard to miss them. All you had to do was turn on your radio (yes, we listened to the radio back then) and you couldn’t avoid hearing great songs.

Sure, I remember those days. But keep in mind that back then, record companies were largely run by people who were willing to take on a much broader variety of artists. [. . .]

@stuartk , I would agree with probably everything you typed in that post. However, I would point out that you should have addressed that post/reply to @ezwind instead of me. Not that I took offense or anything, just that the post that you were responding to was made by @ezwind .

As for me, in the mid ’90s I was introduced to a public radio station, 91.3 WYEP, that totally transformed my appreciation of music. And although I do not listen to the radio much anymore, what I have heard when I do listen makes me tfeel that there are still good artists writing lyrics in the 21st century.

?

Whats your point ?

@mahgister 

Apologies for the confusion, my comment was not directed at your post.

@mahgister

Apologies for the confusion, my comment was not directed at your post.

Not necessary to apologize i do not understand your point anyway...

:)

The use of chat gtp and A.I. is my main focus point about society right now...

I just begun to uncover the new "religion" aspect from it  from mathematics to society...

I am flabbergasted to say the least  ..

I wish you the best of year and the health necessary to enjoy life ...

@ezwind: The two times I saw Iris at The Troubadour, the room was so quiet you could hear a pin drop between songs. It was kind of uncomfortable. Iris didn’t speak much, and at one of the shows I think there were a few groups from churches in the audience, with their kids.

At the two shows here in Portland, Iris was having a lot more fun, and was actually quite funny. Lots of self-deprecating humor. God I love her so.

@slaw: I just picked up a coupla Secret Sisters albums at Music Millennium. All it takes for me is to see that T Bone Burnette produced. He or Buddy Miller. Has anyone else heard the Healing Tide album by the Gospel duo The War & Treaty (Michael and Tanya Trotter) that Buddy produced? Fantastic! Buddy (and his wife Julie) come from the Contemporary Christian music community. Coincidentally, so does T Bone.

In what alternative universe did T Bone Burnett record anything remotely close to “contemporary christian”?

Bet this conversation has been had by every generation as new music evolves.

I bet you are right.

Secret Sisters are really good. How to classify them may take some thinkin'.

Going back a few years ago, I remember hearing He's Fine on the radio a few times so I bought the CD for that song.  I cannot say that, for me personally, anything except that song really grabbed me.  I'll have to give it another listen.

@ghastley: I take it then that you haven’t heard T Bone’s latest album The Other Side. If you go way back to his first solo album from 1972 (entitled J. Henry Burnett, The B-52 Band & The Fabulous Skylarks) you will find a song written by T Bone entitled "I Don’t Mind No Light Sermon". In between those two albums, his others include lyrics with spiritual references, just as do Dylan’s. And just as do his albums as a member of the trio known as The Alpha Band, with David Mansfield and Steven Soles.

But remember, I said T Bone "came out of the Contemporary Christian community." That doesn’t necessarily mean he recorded and released any album in that format/genre. T Bone was a member of a famous church in Southern California (I don’t recall it’s name), where Dylan also went to study the Bible.

T Bone’s ex-wife Sam Phillips also started as a Contemporary Christian artist, then going by the name Leslie Phillips. I have her four CC solo albums (all on Myrrth Records, the last---The Turning---produced by T Bone) on CD. T Bone and Sam met as a result of their Christian activities, as did Buddy and Julie Miller. Julie also had some solo albums put out as a CC artist, which I also have on CD.

@immatthewj

I appreciate your thoughtful reflections.

FYI, I was pointing out a potential "blind spot" regarding how we assess lyrics, not asserting you or anyone else necessarily falls prey to it. I can’t know that, obviously! I do notice it in myself.

You bring up many interesting and complex points that could be delved into at great depth.

Songs can and do operate at many different levels. Each of us may have our preferences regarding which levels we find most engaging. You bring up imagery. Images can indeed be very powerful; without referring to specific details they can nevertheless invoke/evoke complex responses/reactions. The image "carries us" deep into ourselves and we "fill in the picture" based upon our own experiences and imagination. Its non-specificity is what leaves room for us to interact with it.

On the other hand, there is writing that satisfies/engages through its specificity. It paints a vivid picture and we take it in as if we are a blank canvas that "soaks up" all the finely delineated detail.

Dylan has written tunes across a very broad stylistic spectrum, from "journalistic" to cryptic and many points between. I find it very difficult to generalize about his work.

 I would agree with probably everything you typed in that post. However, I would point out that you should have addressed that post/reply to @ezwind instead of me. Not that I took offense or anything, just that the post that you were responding to was made by @ezwind .

Doh!  Sorry about that. This can happen with long threads, involving many participants! 

@bdp24 Spiritual yes, thumper no. Unlikely you would ever hear T Bone Burnett describe himself as “contemporary….”

Beato also opines that there is no actual artistic engagement in mainstream pop/rock/country. It's formulaic and worse closed to "outsiders".  In that light i think he's right.

Take "Rich Men North Of Richmond" for example. 100% off the reservation, no producer, no label, no major national "drop" and it slipped through- and was wildly successful. Arguably the lyrics are simple yet clever, and the performance is authentic. It was refreshing. 

I blame the conglomerate music industry for the crap being produced and aired today.  For sure there are excellent musicians and brilliant lyrics being made today- but they are not easily accessible. 

You are exactly right in my opinion...

i also liked the song you mentioned for his sincere engagement and clever words...

A song can have meaningful words without the poetry of a Nobel prize winner and touch us...It was the case with "Rich man" ... It was not a "manufactured product for a "manufactured"  Zombies public...

Thanks...

Beato also opines that there is no actual artistic engagement in mainstream pop/rock/country. It’s formulaic and worse closed to "outsiders". In that light i think he’s right.

Take "Rich Men North Of Richmond" for example. 100% off the reservation, no producer, no label, no major national "drop" and it slipped through- and was wildly successful. Arguably the lyrics are simple yet clever, and the performance is authentic. It was refreshing.

I blame the conglomerate music industry for the crap being produced and aired today. For sure there are excellent musicians and brilliant lyrics being made today- but they are not easily accessible.

Beato also opines that there is no actual artistic engagement in mainstream pop/rock/country.

For my birthday in October, my wife gifted me Post Malone's F-1 Trillion album. After listening for a day, I immediately traded/sold it. All the hooks were eerily similar to other country songs of old and felt that I had heard that song before when Pro-Tools/Autotune was not a thing. I guess the days of suing others for song writing is a thing of the past, but putting lipstick on a pig is a viable option in the music industry today. Ala movies, the industry has little to work with except sequels. 

I think Beato is right, but it really does stick out in the country music genre nowadays.

I find a few newer rock songs to be really refreshing, however. "Cage the Elephant" song "Neon Pill" sticks out. This song would have been a major hit in the 1980's and, somehow, contains new catchy hooks that I cannot associate with that era- or this era- for that matter.

Rock still has some room for improvement, IMHO. Country has far less to work with and pop is truly produced by a conglomerate of record executives and producers who are propped up by the industries that have invested in them.

"Cage the Elephant" has been supported by that music conglomerate for 17+ years, including Grammy nominations (see conglomerate). I find the majority (I really only like one song out of their ten albums) of their tracks impossible to enjoy. 

Oliver of "Rich men..." fame had over 17 million streams in one week and he garnered more than 2 million for his one song, subsequently turning down record label offers of up to 8 million. Cage the Elephant, on the other hand, has sold about 3 million albums to collect far less, considering the music industry took a large part of that pie.

Hollywood is taking a beating nowadays and may be on life support. I believe that the music industry may be in the same boat...a sinking one!

Thanks a lot for your informed and informative  post in my opinion....

@yesiam_a_pirate

I blame the conglomerate music industry for the crap being produced and aired today. For sure there are excellent musicians and brilliant lyrics being made today- but they are not easily accessible.

Yes, yes and only if you don’t bother to look. Beato could provide a great service, IF he were to educate his viewers/subscribers and point them towards the good stuff. 

@bdp24 

I think I have all Secret Sisters on vinyl.

For sure there are excellent musicians and brilliant lyrics being made today- but they are not easily accessible.

@yesiam_a_pirate

Did you mean to say they’re not widely known or publicized? Because as far as access, you can get any music online in 5 seconds.

Which brings us to this question: Are an unknown artist’s chances to be discovered on Tik Tok better or worse than they were on radio and TV stations back in "the day"?

And: Do conglomerates churn out torrents of garbage purely out of the evilness of their cold hearts, or are they merely rational economic actors who produce what the buying public demands?

And: Do conglomerates churn out torrents of garbage purely out of the evilness of their cold hearts, or are they merely rational economic actors who produce what the buying public demands?

This certainly raises the question of whether there are fewer and fewer great songwriters because there just isn't a big enough audience for great songs, and if there's no audience you can't make a living writing them. Based on my experience with young people who bother to listen to music at all, young boys and men these days generally listen to rap/hiphop stuff and they're primarily interested in whether the songs have a good beat or a thumping bass. Teenage girls and young women tend to gravitate more towards vacuous pop relationship songs.

Admittedly these are generalizations, but I don't think the generalization is unfair. Many in this thread have noted how there are a lot of great songs being written by Americana artists. How many young people today are listening to that stuff, much less blues or jazz? I'd guess the percentage is miniscule. I know that when I go to see those artists in concert anyone under 30 or even 40 usually sticks out like a sore thumb.

So I agree that the listening audience today is probably getting what they ask for and what they deserve. 

Don’t think i would put Poor Man South of Mason Dixon on such a pedestal..but it is certainly more decisive than anything political that Terrible Ted wrote….

@ezwind     +1 Great post!

but since half the country give or take the imaginary mandate is so concerned about miners, check out Black Lung by Steve Earl… a true master

Or perhaps delve into another rich vein of labor… exploited labor on Rhiannon Giddens - Silk Road / Railroad……

@ezwind     +1 Great post!

I concur with ezwind...

I will only add that the media and the corporations work to manufacture not only the singers  and products, but they manufacture a specialized niche  public too, as pointed above in my article about South-Korean pop great success and exportation methods...

Then:

So I agree that the listening audience today is probably getting what they ask for and what they deserve. 

Certainly a great actual artist and great lyrics...

Someday We’ll Linger in the Sun 🌅 Performed by Gaelynn Lea

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HaSKgPjk6g

Or this version of the same magnificent song by a true artist ( not a manufactured one)  :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IM89LeMezA

Now listen to Beato opinions in 15 minutes about top songs of 2024 :

As i said i like Beato because he is like an open book persona:

TOP 10 SONGS OF 2024??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKYswE7wj1c

He is way more patient than me with songs lyrics and music...

i want pure beauty and moving heart and total originality not just merely good professional work to listen casually ... I listen Bach casually not well done professional song ...

The song i put above of Gaelynn Lea is better on all counts than all these 24 list ( save Teddy Swims, and Billie Eilish with my honorable mention )...None of them moves me 1 inches , Gaelynn Lea peirced the heart...

I am not a good public...They all sound to me as manufactured product... Not Gaelynn Lea... Or Cosmo Sheldrake...Or "Rich men from Richmond" ..These three as for me true artists not performers in the quest  for a hit...

How about a protest song for the 2020s, folks

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sER0FzJO-c0&pp=ygUNQ2hhdCBQaWxlIHdoeQ%3D%3D

If Bob Dylan were 25 he might sound like this

Pleasant surprise ... I like it as much as " Rich men of Richmond"

Thanks...

Another interesting Beato video  who makes me think perhaps i am wrong and i did not understand well the era where i am living  as much as i thought i was:

The Death of Music Genres

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-h_OHhtvPU

@ghasley: By your use of the term "thumper" (short for Bible thumper of course), your view of Contemporary Christianity is clear.

T Bone's Southern California church is named The Vineyard, and in the 1970's and 80's it was a main church for musicians seeking to look into Christian spirituality. Lesley Phillips already had three albums out on the Myrrh Records (Phillips was the no. 2 best selling artist on the CC chart), the very well known CC label. T Bone produced her fourth---The Turning---a joint effort between Myrrh and Horizon Records, distributed by A & M.

Myrrh Records is as Contemporary Christian as you can get. From Christianity.com: "Burnett produced The Turning, Phillips' final album before leaving Contemporary Christian music to become an independent artist." Does that make T Bone a Bible thumper? No, but his new album is certainly a discussion of the topic we are speaking of.

Was Dylan's Slow Train Coming Bible thumping? Indeed it was! T Bone's involvement on The Rolling Thunder Review shortly preceded Dylan's "Christian period", and many believe it was T Bone who "led" Dylan to that exploration of Christianity. Burnett: "Probably about 15 people out of that Rolling Thunder Tour started going to church, or back to church." Doesn't seem like T Bone is adverse to being viewed as a Bible thumper.

Others so inclined are Johnny Cash, Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee Lewis, and more recently Marty Stuart And His Fabulous Superlatives (on their Saturday Night/Sunday Morning album. Well, half of it at least ).

Based on my experience with young people who bother to listen to music at all, young boys and men these days generally listen to rap/hiphop stuff and they’re primarily interested in whether the songs have a good beat or a thumping bass.

Admittedly these are generalizations, but I don’t think the generalization is unfair. Many in this thread have noted how there are a lot of great songs being written by Americana artists. How many young people today are listening to that stuff, much less blues or jazz?

About that thumping bass thing, I’ve been a bass head from the time I heard Larry Graham of Sly and The family Stone and the acoustic intonations of Ray Brown on an upright bass. I don’t think the above statements are necessarily true about kids, or should I say young women and young men theses days.

For example this first link is from MonoNeon with Ghost-Note "Live at the Jamm Jam in Los Angeles" and if you notice, it’s packed with general admission standing room only young folks. Or what we would call back in the day a "jam Session". Kinda similar to what their grandparents did many years ago when going to a concert.

In fact I think young people all over the world listen to jazz and blues. This is Ghost Note featuring MonoNeon in Germany, tearing up the stage. Ghost-Note - Featuring MonoNeon live at the Jazz Club Unterfahrt in germany

And the idea that these same young folks don’t listen to blues is totally false as well. NAMM 2016: Eric Gales & Mono Neon Live At The Dunlop Booth

As you see here in this post, young folks not only listen to jazz and blues, but more importantly they play live jazz and blues quite well, if I don’t say so myself. Here’s one for the road. Check out MonoNeon on acoustic bass. MonoNeon with Ghost-Note: "Phat Bacc" | Sugarshack Sessions

@tyray 

That's good stuff and I intend to check out more of it, but....it doesn't really disprove what I said about the listening habits of young people in general. If I wanted to take the time, I'm quite sure I could find videos from dozens of jazz and blues clubs and concerts all over the country and you'll see very few young people in the crowd. My own experiences from attending a fair amount of concerts is consistent with that.

Note that I didn't say that no young people are into those genres; many are, but nowhere near the majority or even a significant minority, imo. It might be a little different in urban areas (this show was in L.A.) where the arts as a whole tend to thrive more than in suburbia. Maybe it's different in other countries around the world but I can't speak to that. I know that audiences in general have received jazz and blues very enthusiastically in places like Europe and Japan, although I have no idea what the demographics are.

I sincerely wish that I'm wrong and you're right about this, but I have to confess that I'm skeptical.

I sincerely wish that I'm wrong and you (@tyray) are right about this, but I have to confess that I'm skeptical.

Not to take sides here, but @tyray is right, definitely so in my experience.

You say you don't see many young people at concerts. Is it possible young people don't frequent the same venues you frequent?

@ezwind,

If I wanted to take the time, I’m quite sure I could find videos from dozens of jazz and blues clubs and concerts all over the country and you’ll see very few young people in the crowd.

It sound like to me you’re just guessing? And you have no clue? I wondering where you live and what live venues you go to see Jazz? Jazz (and blues) is the one music that is our own. It is played all over the US and the world. I don’t care what city you are in, whether it be suburbia or metropolitan areas, there are Jazz clubs all over the US.

And when and artist gets a big following they may be fortunate to get a tour that takes them to small venues, to big venues and everything in between. Meaning when a band tours there is no rhyme or reason where they might or might not play, it’s where the band’s next gig is.

FWIW, my wife and I used to drive 2.5 hours to Oakland to see top Jazz artists at Yoshi’s, one of the premier Jazz clubs in the country. I’m talking about people like Joe Lovano, McCoy Tyner, Mark Turner, Jack DeJohnette, John Abercrombie, Cedar Walton, Dave Holland Quintet, Geri Allen, Billy Harper, Bobby Hutcherson, Vincent Herring, Bobby Watson, etc. Top players. This was roughly from 2005 to 2010, if memory serves. We attended 12 -15 shows during that time and by far the largest segment of the audience was always older white guys. Eventually Yoshi’s shifted from all Jazz to mostly contemporary R&B with a few bluesy or Smooth Jazz players sprinkled to the mix. I’m pretty sure they did this because they wanted to attract bigger crowds.

I haven’t been to a Blues show in a long time but when we did go, there was much greater variation in ages, compared to Jazz. I can’t say if this is still true.

Another venue closer to home in Folsom (Harris Center) used to include Jazz acts but that did not last for long. In fact, that last Jazz performance was saw was there -- Kenny Werner Trio. Great show.