To Fuse or Not to Fuse... That is the question!

Somebody’s running out of ammo. Two days and he’s already burned out. 

“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”
― Mark Twain

An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. - Pee Wee Herman

“I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.”  

Perfect! And so typical: A made up quote & misattribution.

"There's a lotta things ... you don't know anything about, Kait-ee.
Things you wouldn't understand. Things you couldn't understand." - Pee-wee

moopman, meet your intellectual twin! His name is Mr. Eels. 

Question for the group: can one know much about his / her audio system without being an engineer? Further, if you are an engineer, do you even need to own any audio system to be an audio expert?

Sorry george, while you "enjoy" your retirement of anger, I am working on my next "deal" ... just a few million units ... of real electronics, that will perform a real verifiable function, not some magic rocks, that and we were putting a new Thermotron chamber into the warehouse area, and I wanted to supervise the electrical hookup and make sure the contractor for the N2 was happy with the location and spacing. 

As I design and sell real stuff, not magic rocks, I need to have real equipment, that does real things, based on real science. 
geoffkait17,689 posts10-23-2019 6:30pmSomebody’s running out of ammo. Two days and he’s already burned out.

roberttcan"while you "enjoy" your retirement of anger, I am working on my next "deal" ... just a few million units ... of real electronics"

That which can be submitted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence do those words sound familiar to you at all?

It can sometimes be a little bizarre to see people try to impress others here by using “big words” like function, verifiable and Thermotron chamber. But thanks for providing an excellent example of a logical fallacy.

roberttcan"Reading your last few posts where you attempt to be the "social justice MOM" for all the AGon community, i am just going to ignore, from here on out, every single post YOU make. If you are so triggered by me, I suggest you do the same"

I will read the posts that I alone decide to read and advice you that it is a violation to threaten anyone in this forum.

It is not for you to limit, restrict, or discourage posters and contributors to this forum from sharing, expressing, or explaining they’re thoughts, observations, or opinions and regardless of you’re opinions or threats.   

Question for the group: can one know much about his / her audio system without being an engineer?

If it gives you pleasure, that's all you need to know. If however, it cannot provide a reasonable simulacrum of an original, perhaps a little knowledge could help.

Further, if you are an engineer, do you even need to own any audio system to be an audio expert?

I r enginerr. I never stop learning.
Most engineers I know do not consider themselves expert. They have the knowledge and skill to solve real world problems.
Experts give advice that rarely solve problems.

Yes, geoff, seems bizarre to me that you would mention Nasa 190 times, and Aerospace 332 times :-)

geoffkait17,697 posts10-24-2019 5:00amIt can sometimes be a little bizarre to see people try to impress others here by using “big words” like function, verifiable and Thermotron chamber. But thanks for providing an excellent example of a logical fallacy. 

Is that because your hand is less likely to make auspicious claims? I just had a good laugh over the HiFi/Gecom "test report" you posted. You really should have vetted that first before posting it though. No worries, I know electrical/electronic is not your area of expertise so quickly identifying the flaws in the test would not be easy for you.

I think you should go back to trying to justify that differences in the integrated Poynting vector (seeing how the E-field does change for each phase of AC and hence points in each direction, leads to the B field, and that those two lead to the Poynting vector, and must be integrated over the whole field space for each direction) are going to be significant enough different with the fuse direction changed to make your system sound different. That would of course require proving the difference is on the order of thermal modulation of fuses and wires, humidity differences, the impacts of temperature change on resistance, etc.

I can wait ...

I think I am going to start calling you 332 :-)

I had a feeling you would fall into my ant lion trap. 🐜 🐜 The HiFi Tuning data sheets have been discussed ad nauseam here, even since I posted them here eons ago. It’s been so long ago I don’t even remember. Still, it’s a pleasure getting a new man on board. I am very fond of good strong reactions so, it’s a win win. 🤗 By the way, in case you missed it even HiFi Tuning admits in the text portion of the data sheets that the small differences in measured voltage drop (resistance) do not (rpt not) explain the relatively large differences heard in listening tests. When’s the last time you had your ears candled? This might come as a shock to you, there is no debate about wire directionality, we’ve known about it for 25 years. Some high end Unshielded cables have been marked for directionality like forever. At least 20 years. It’s like cryo. Most high end cable manufacturers routine employ cryo. Some electronics manufacturers like Meitner have been using cryo for years and years. How time flies!

So like 20 / 25 years? Awesome. There should be lots and lots of properly run tests that show that people can pick up the audible differences right?

What's that you say ... no you can't provide me with any links other than some old digital stuff where RCA plugs were used for controlled impedance signals and you ended up getting transmission line effects and jitter?

Really ... 20-25 years ... nada. I never would have guessed 332.  No worried, I think jae48 said he would like to set up a room at an audio show so that we can run some double blind tests like this. I am willing to put in some good money, heck I would put up a grand. You?  Wouldn't you like to, for once, be able to point to a large listening group test that clearly, in front of pundits and naysayers alike proved what you are claiming?

Yes, MFRs in audio use cryo. Why ... people will pay for it. In the business world that is pretty much the best reason there is. Spend a few dollars to drop in in liquid nitrogen, charge 50x your cost. The brilliance isn't in the engineering, it is in the marketing.

The only trap you fell into is assuming you could get away with posting marketing fluff and calling it engineering.

In a good transparent system... fuses influence the sound in a way that can be heard. Some fuse designers learned ways to make the sound more pleasing to the ears. Fuses simply have an effect on what plays through the speakers.  There is no perfect fuse,  anymore than there is a perfect speaker cable.  They all influence what is heard.  We choose what we like to hear. 

100,000 fancy fuses sold to date so it looks like it’s you against the world Mr. Smarty Pants 👖and looking into my crystal ball I you can probably add at least another 50,000 for the new 🍊 fuse. Snooze, you lose. 😴 By the way you didn’t interpret the data correctly. Your humble narrator did, though. 🤗 Be that as it may, as I said there really isn’t any debate any more. But you’re welcome to carry on.🕺🏻 You aren’t the only stubborn mossback in town. 

You are confused because GK keeps parroting that the energy is only conveyed from source to load, hence the fact it is AC makes no difference as the energy is unidirectional (even though current is bidirectional)l, and uses this as a justification for fuse directionality.

"You can ignore the current traveling in the direction away from the speakers, I.e., toward the wall, since that direction of current flow is not (rpt not) audible."

The first statement about energy transfer direction is correct, as the energy flows towards the load along the Poynting vector. The second statement is not correct. It sounds right based on the first statement but it is not.

What GK fails to realize is that the Poynting vector is the spacially integrated cross-product of the E (electric) and B (magnetic) fields, over the WHOLE circuit, and that everywhere current is flowing (in a wire), there are E and B fields, meaning that EVERYWHERE current flows impacts the Poynting vector. If you didn’t have current flowing both towards the speakers AND away from the speakers, you wouldn’t have E and B fields and you wouldn’t have a Poynting vector and you wouldn’t have energy transfer from the source to the load. The current traveling to the speakers and away from the speakers are equally important in defining the Poynting vector.

At a macro level, the Poynting vector is the same for both polarities of the AC signal, as the E-field is structurally the same, but as opposed to that justifying that the fuse is "directional", the opposite is true.

roberttcan182 posts10-25-2019 6:44pmYou are confused because GK keeps parroting that the energy is only conveyed from source to load, hence the fact it is AC makes no difference as the energy is unidirectional (even though current is bidirectional)l, and uses this as a justification for fuse directionality.


>>>>There you go again putting words in my mouth, Mr. Marty Pants 👖. I never said any such thing. Maybe you should try keeping a log. In fact what I said somewhere along the line is that energy is a scalar quantity, which means it has no direction. Follow?

The german physicist Max Planck said that science advances one funeral at a time. Or more precisely:"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."

Ladies and germs, meet the new fuse generation.

All the best,
Nonoise

Appeal to bandwagon.

Let me know how that homeopathic cancer treatment works (huge apologies if you actually have cancer, this is an analogy, not a personal attack of that nature). Sales in the U.S. alone of Homeopathy products that do exactly nothing is near $450 Million. Far more than audio cables and fuses.

Do you know how many residential customers in the U.S. get sucked into buying over-priced whole home PFC products (nothing more than capacitors in a box) because someone convinced them they would save huge money on their electricity bills ... even though all residential in the US is billed for real-power only?

Is that 100,000 figure from Ted Denney?  If so, I am skeptical of that number. He also claims $10 million/year in sales. I am sure you have seen his factory tour videos? Relatively small staff and not high priced professionals. Almost no expensive equipment to pay for (so what is the real R&D overhead). Given the manufacturing margins, at $10 mil/year, they should be generating serious cash flow. Ted does not live a serious cash flow life.


geoffkait17,729 posts10-25-2019 6:14pm100,000 fancy fuses sold to date so it looks like it’s you against the world Mr. Smarty Pants 👖and looking into my crystal ball I you can probably add at least another 50,000 for the new 🍊 fuse. Snooze, you lose. 😴 By the way you didn’t interpret the data correctly. Your humble narrator did, though. 🤗 Be that as it may, as I said there really isn’t any debate any more. But you’re welcome to carry on.🕺🏻 You aren’t the only stubborn mossback in town.

The number of 100,000 fancy fuses is a composite across the top three fuse companies. I prefer not to divulge my sources. You need to work on your batting average. 

- your humble narrator and consummate Audio Insider

It is not only WHAT You said, it is YOUR EXACT WORDS

geoffkait17,730 posts10-25-2019 6:53pmThere you go again putting words in my mouth, Mr. Marty Pants 👖. I never said any such thing. Maybe you should try keeping a log. In fact what I said somewhere along the line is that energy is a scalar quantity, which means it has no direction. Follow?

- geoffkait's exact words below. Cut and pasted from his post

"You can ignore the current traveling in the direction away from the speakers, I.e., toward the wall, since that direction of current flow is not (rpt not) audible. The only direction that’s audible for any wire is the one toward the speakers. It is the speakers that ultimately produce the sound you hear. So, it’s the “quality” of the current traveling toward the speakers that is the issue. That’s why fuses sound better in one direction, worse in the other direction in AC circuits and DC circuits. As Old Blue Eyes sez, that’s life. "

Uh, those aren’t even close to my words, Mr. Wiki. Current is not energy. They don’t even have the same units. Hel-loo! Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth? You realize that’s an illogical argument, don’t you?

Oh look, more of YOUR exact words saying exactly the same thing ... 

geoffkait17,732 posts10-19-2019 4:18pm
ieales440 posts10-19-2019 3:26pmFrom SR:

Electricity should flow from the left to the right when you view the fuse.

A/C current changes direction every cycle. The supreme idiocy of the statement: what if I view end on??? 


>>>>While that’s true, and for virtually all cables and power cords - the current alternates. 🔛 But you can ignore 😳 the current when it’s traveling in the direction toward the wall outlet. 🔜  The only direction we care about is the one that drives the speakers. That’s the direction that is audible.

Whether you remember writing them or not 332, sorry Geoff Kait, those are, and were YOUR exact words. Claim all you want that those are not your exact words, but they are.

geoffkait17,732 posts10-13-2019 7:51amibmjunkman
OK, I am totally confused. You guys saying you use these fuses in AC circuits?

From their web site:
A: Yes, fuses are directional. Electricity should flow from the left to the right when you view the fuse. If you do not know the direction of flow you should listen to the fuse inserted in both directions. One direction will sound more detailed. This is the correct way.

I thought AC changed directions 60 times a second?

>>>>>Thanks for bringing that up. Actually most audio fuses happen to be in AC circuits. It’s true current changes direction on the wire according to where the fuse is located. If the fuse is located where power comes into the CD player, preamp or amp or whatever it changes 60 times per second. But if the fuse is located in the speaker the current changes according to frequencies of the audio waveform. Thus the current at the fuse in the speaker changes 20 to 20,000 times per second - or more or less. If the fuse is in a DC circuit obviously current is unidirectional.

You can ignore the current traveling in the direction away from the speakers, I.e., toward the wall, since that direction of current flow is not (rpt not) audible. The only direction that’s audible for any wire is the one toward the speakers. It is the speakers that ultimately produce the sound you hear. So, it’s the “quality” of the current traveling toward the speakers that is the issue. That’s why fuses sound better in one direction, worse in the other direction in AC circuits and DC circuits. As Old Blue Eyes sez, that’s life.

You’re not following. Talk to the hand 🤚 

332, I follow just fine.

You were wrong.

I proved your were wrong.

Now you are claiming you didn't say the things you clearly said,

There is no way to twist what you said and claim you meant something else. There is complete clarity in what you wrote.

Bye

I learned what Thermotron chamber is. Good job everybody. Especially me.

At the same time, geoffkait, do I have to go through reality check of those impressive fuse numbers every six months? 100 000 fuses sold equals 10 000 -15 000 buyers, at best. Easily 5000 but I am a generous kind. It is overly enthusiastic to call it "the world". It is a number of inhabitants of some large residential building.

It is obvious from these threads that fuse-believers are very dedicated crowd. Which one of them bought only one fuse and then gave up?

How can you prove I’m wrong when your evidence is wrong? Besides it’s only evidence. My evidence is only evidence, too. Even if your evidence was correct, which it isn’t, it’s still only evidence. You need to study up on the difference between evidence and proof a little bit. The best you can hope for is to sway some newbie’s opinion. Which most likely you didn’t if he was paying attention. In the end it’s only a little game since every audiophile and his brother knows that fuses are directional. And the advanced audiophiles know all wire is directional. I did not invent reality. Good luck in your quest to prove reality wrong. To summarize, your debating technique of misquoting me, misinterpreting me and presenting incorrect evidence of your own was ineffective. 

Help for skeptics who’ve hit a brick wall has arrived. 🤗 I only want to help you out. (Excerpts from Zen and the Art of Debunkery)

• Put on the right face. Cultivate a condescending air certifying that your personal opinions are backed by the full faith and credit of God. Adopting a disdainful, upper-class manner is optional but highly recommended.

• Employ vague, subjective, dismissive terms such as "ridiculous," "trivial," "crackpot," or "bunk," in a manner that purports to carry the full force of scientific authority.

• Keep your arguments as abstract and theoretical as possible. This will send the message that accepted theory overrides any actual evidence that might challenge it -- and that therefore no such evidence is worth examining.

• By every indirect means at your disposal imply that science is powerless to police itself against fraud and misperception, and that only self-appointed vigilantism can save it from itself.

• Portray science not as an open-ended process of discovery but as a pre-emptive holy war against invading hordes of quackery-spouting infidels. Since in war the ends justify the means, you may fudge, stretch or violate the scientific method, or even omit it entirely, in the name of defending it.

On the speaker there are two separate wires coming from the amplifier. One we call + the other -. The two wires carry the electrical signal to operate the speaker. Since the speaker cables are part of an AC circuit when the electrical signal travels toward the speaker on the + wire it travels in the opposite direction on the - wire. It is an alternating current and voltage circuit. The electrical signal alternates direction according to the instantaneous frequency of the “audio waveform.” The speaker only responds to the electrical signal at any instant in time whether it’s the + or - wire. So for that that instant of time you can pretend the other wire is not even attached to the speaker. There is no current, voltage or energy on that other wire. So, it’s only the direction toward the speaker that is important and the only direction we hear. One wire pushed the diaphragm out, the other pulls it back in. That’s why the wires in the speaker cables should be constructed so the best-sounding direction is honored. Then the cables are marked with arrows 🔚 so there’s no confusion. It’s not really rocket science. 🚀

Clean up aisle 4!!!!!.
Someone please mop Geoff up, and flush him down the dunny.

Whatever are they putting in the water down there, Georgie Porgy? Are you drinking out of the dunny? 

“WOW WOW WOW” WHAT!

Too many cooks spoil the broth.

An an ordinary man has no means of deliverance.

For safety reasons that is the main reason fuses are incorporated,
that being said , the standard cheap steel fuses are horrible conductors and create a a Huge resistance bottleneck whic robs low level detail as well as grunge noise especially low level. A Copper or Silver a Gold matrix is not only night and day more musical less bright but 4-5 x better conductor, think about it for a moment to start with on back All electricity flows through that fuse the weakest link in the chain ,we have listened ,yo them measured on a scope,
night and day better.no fuse is the best but not possible with most gear.
i can tell you one thing the latest New fuse from Synergistic Research is sonicly even more refined then their excellent blue fuse.i am not a big advocate of the
way Synergistic and its owner have done business in the past and using the great
Nicola Tesla as a selling point for their totally unverified quantum process.
that being said the New Orange are a Great fuses.

Observation, I.e., empirical evidence, is equal to measurements as part of the scientific method. So are curiosity and spirit of investigation. Hey, what’d ya know, there’s that word science again! My bad! I did not invent reality nor do I care very much if my Logic fails to convince anyone. Science has become a little bit flabby and stodgy and slow. I prefer to go my own way. Things get done faster that way. I probably broke three laws of physics this week and the week ain’t even over yet. I’m not trying to set the world on fire, just start a flame in a few hearts 🥰 But as Bob Dylan says at the end of all his records, good luck everybody! 🤗

Not according Wikipedia. Do you know something Wikipedia doesn’t? 😳 HiFi Tuning, for one example, employs a 99% silver alloy 1% gold tip to tip, including end caps. Don’t forget the end caps! 🤗 Isoclean uses copper alloy wire and gold plated end caps.

Wiki - The fuse element is made of zinc, copper, silver, aluminum, or alloys to provide stable and predictable characteristics. The fuse ideally would carry its rated current indefinitely, and melt quickly on a small excess.