To Fuse or Not to Fuse... That is the question!

This is really only partially true and from a certifications standpoint not usually true. The main purpose of an AC mains fuse is to protect the AC wire leading to the equipment so that it does not heat up and cause a fire. In theory any overheating inside an piece of equipment will be suitably contained by the enclosure. Where the case is metal and grounded, it can also provide protection from a live wire contacting the grounded case, which is neutral connected at the panel and will hence blow.


Almarg 9-26-2019
I just want to state a point of information: Posts that have been made by at least three different members appear to imply that the purpose of an AC mains fuse in a component is to provide protection against surges in the incoming AC. While it is possible that an AC mains fuse might do that under some circumstances, that is not its intended purpose. Its intended purpose is to blow if a fault within the component causes it to draw excessive AC current. Thereby preventing **additional** damage to the component that may otherwise occur, as well as preventing the possibility of the component overheating or even bursting into flames as a result of the excessive current being drawn. 

Excuse me?  That is EXACTLY what someone claimed. This is a direct quote from this thread. geoffkait specifically. Don't shoot me, I am just the messenger, not the comedian. It seems it is you that lacks reading comprehension or just wanted to look like the big man on the block, but were too lazy to do due diligence or perhaps you just don't understand the topic at hand similar to how goeffkait does not understand it.

The FUSE, no matter the direction of the current flow, impedes (or doesn't impede) the flow of electrons which impacts the flow of every electron at a macro level in the circuit. It doesn't matter whether the electrons are flowing into the left or right side of the fuse. The effect is the same with an AC signal ... it is a 2 port device.

If you truly believe the fuses are directional, then you should open up your electronics and start playing around with the direction of every resistor and non polarized capacitor too .... let me know how that goes.

Bye



geoffkait17,586 posts10-13-2019 7:51amibmjunkman
OK, I am totally confused. You guys saying you use these fuses in AC circuits?

From their web site:
A: Yes, fuses are directional. Electricity should flow from the left to the right when you view the fuse. If you do not know the direction of flow you should listen to the fuse inserted in both directions. One direction will sound more detailed. This is the correct way.

I thought AC changed directions 60 times a second? 

>>>>>Thanks for bringing that up. Actually most audio fuses happen to be in AC circuits. It’s true current changes direction on the wire according to where the fuse is located. If the fuse is located where power comes into the CD player, preamp or amp or whatever it changes 60 times per second. But if the fuse is located in the speaker the current changes according to frequencies of the audio waveform. Thus the current at the fuse in the speaker changes 20 to 20,000 times per second - or more or less. If the fuse is in a DC circuit obviously current is unidirectional.

You can ignore the current traveling in the direction away from the speakers, I.e., toward the wall, since that direction of current flow is not (rpt not) audible. The only direction that’s audible for any wire is the one toward the speakers. It is the speakers that ultimately produce the sound you hear. So, it’s the “quality” of the current traveling toward the speakers that is the issue. That’s why fuses sound better in one direction, worse in the other direction in AC circuits and DC circuits. As Old Blue Eyes sez, that’s life. 

The other reason for a fuse is if the equipment has MOV based surge protection which will typically fail short, but technically that is covered by the my first case ... to protect the wire connected to the equipment.

The following is so laughably incorrect, I don't know whether the poster was honestly communicating what they believe or if they were trolling. 

This is wrong. It is not open to debate (unless you have no clue how electricity works). Of course energy is transferred in both directions. That is why power supply ripple is NOT at 60Hz, it is at 120Hz (or 100Hz). Again, not remotely open to debate and easily confirmed. If there is 60Hz noise that is being injected directly into the signal, not from power supply ripple. 

Signed,  "Someone who actually does this for a living."


"You can ignore the current traveling in the direction away from the speakers, I.e., toward the wall, since that direction of current flow is not (rpt not) audible. The only direction that’s audible for any wire is the one toward the speakers. It is the speakers that ultimately produce the sound you hear. So, it’s the “quality” of the current traveling toward the speakers that is the issue. That’s why fuses sound better in one direction, worse in the other direction in AC circuits and DC circuits. As Old Blue Eyes sez, that’s life. "

Let me explain it to you "dude". Voltage is nothing more than the potential to do work. It does not mean any work will be done. VELOCITY of electrons is not a measure of current (current which is the flow of electrons - charge carriers to be most accurate). You cannot "impede" voltage. Saying something "impedes" voltage is akin to saying something "impedes" height (i.e. potential gravitational energy). 

AGAIN, velocity of electronics is not a measurement, well of anything in this particular case. Current is charge carrier flow rate past a certain "point" in space. Speed of those carriers does not come into play, no more than saying the speed of water in a hose is 25 meters/second tells you how much water is flowing. 

Resistance does not impact carrier drift speed, but current density does (for a given class of conductor, say copper wire, with a defined number of free carriers). If you want to be pedantic, in a given system, resistance is at some level a measure of available charge carriers, so for a given current, which translates to current density, resistance could impact the effective drift velocity ... 

You can't impede voltage, you can only impede the flow of charge carriers (and again, to be most accurate, you can only enable it or not enable it). Whether there is air between two electrodes, or a resistor, the voltage does not change, just the ability to move charge carriers. 

Do you know why the ampere is a fundamental unit of measure, and the volt is not? 

Your confusion about current and voltage being "the signal" likely comes from a simplistic view of electricity and physics. I see that difference regularly ... say between the knowledge an electrician has w.r.t. electricity (which only needs to be basic), and that of an electrical engineer and/or engineering physicist who must have a deeper understanding of the concepts as they often work at more fundamental levels.

Dude, this is not my "first rodeo". Unlike you, I have been doing this for oh, about 25-30 years, and have had to educated the uneducated such as yourself many times. I would suggest not trying to bully me. It won't work. You are not equipped with the tools.


geoffkait17,588 posts10-21-2019 3:47pmYou’re all wet, dude. Let me explain it to you. The fuse impedes voltage, not electrons. The velocity of electrons in copper wire is the same regardless of resistance. As I stated already, electrons are not the signal. Current and voltage are the signal. That’s why wire is directional - because wire - including the wire in fuses - impedes voltage a little more in one direction compared to the other. Follow? I realize this is your first rodeo so I’ll cut you some slack.

You remind me of those Charlie Brown cartoons ... "Wa wa wa wa, wa wa wa wa".  Yes, electrons do move "to and fro" and they impart/transfer energy ... in both directions. The fuse is a simple element in a circuit, a circuit that works both directions ... being a simple 2 port element, it will work the same in both directions. The fuse "impedes" electron flow in the circuit whether the electrons enter from the left or the right. 

You repeating the same stuff over and over again shows you don't understand, not that you do, i.e. "energy is scaler quantity" ... and yes, energy is transferred in BOTH DIRECTIONs. Whether it is scaler or not really matters not. Energy is transferred in both directions. Period.

You do know that a lightbulb "receives" energy in both directions of the current flow right? Do you know the frequency of flicker of a light bulb .. it's not 60Hz, it is 120Hz. (or 100Hz)

DO YOU know why power supplies in audio equipment have ripple at 120/100Hz? ... that is because energy is transferred in each direction.



geoffkait17,587 posts10-21-2019 2:50pmEnergy does not travel to and fro in an AC circuit. Energy is a scalar quantity. It has no direction. It doesn’t make sense, anyway, since IF energy changed direction along with the current the net energy would be zero.

Note to Mr. Eels - the name is Littelfuse, not Littlefuse.

I could never understand why people who are not engineers or physicists pretend that they are or Audio forums. Anyone can read the posts that I am making here and instead of a few hand-waving lines, my posts are detailed, I can use REAL numbers where warranted, and I don't run away when pushed. If you have to bring up classical or QM physics to justify your belief about a fuse, you have already lost the argument. You don't get even the most basics of the topic.

geoffkait17,598 posts10-21-2019 9:10pmGee, are you looking in the mirror?  I was thinking the very same thing of you.

You are improperly applying quantum electrodynamics to our EMR discussion, mainly because you don't understand it ... and frankly, NONE of this matters to fuse directionality since the field, whether classical physics based on quantum based, still moves in both direction across the fuse in equal magnitude.

You are a square peg/round hole sort of guy, even though we are talking about apples and oranges.

If you want to be pedantic, QM does not at this point adequately described many aspects of conduction, i.e aspect of super conductivity, etc. are not adequately addressed, so your "all must be photons" is a leap you are not qualified to make for conductors. 

Tell me, if the field travels outside the conductor, and the energy is outside the conductor, where are the photons generated and received? .... 


10-21-2019 5:58pmNow you’re getting close. The signal is an electromagnetic wave. Obviously, since the signal travels at near light speed. And signal must be photons because all (rpt all) electromagnetic waves are comprised of photons. And you don’t have to be a rocket scientist 🚀 to see electromagnetic waves must be photons since photons are the only particle that travels at light speed in a vacuum and near light speed in a metal conductor. That’s precisely why satellite communications signals (electromagnetic waves) travel at light speed in a vacuum. That’s why there’s a satellite delay for synchronous satellites. Follow

You just sit at home and make this stuff up don't you?

Drum roll ... it does not matter how fast the electrons move ... they all move at once. It like a water hose or pope that is already full of water. When you turn on the tap, you don't have to wait several seconds for the water to come out, it comes out near instantly (well function of the speed of the pressure wave .. note how I use actual technical terms that are associated with the effect).

The speed is about 2/3 the speed of light. 

Again, quite obviously you are reading things you don't understand, mixing up what things mean, then misapplying it to other things.

The thing that travels near the speed of light is the electromagnetic wave.

I am not sure you understand what a photon is. Electrons emit photons when they transit from a high energy level to a low energy level, but that is not what the "signal" is. Are you now confusing transmission in copper with lasers? ... or are did you read a Feyman text but not understand it was an analogy, not an actual description of what occurred?  Electrons could emit photons in a wire (and would), but that is not how current flows. 

This is just so whacky I am not sure if you are trolling at this point. You can't really be this off -base can you? It's silly.

The electrons are not the signal ... the electromagnetic wave is, but that electromagnetic wave uses electrons (effectively) as the carrier for that wave and sweeps them along, not at the wave speed, no more than air needs to move at the speed of sound to transmit sound. 

It takes 1 hour at a current density of about 10 amps/mm^2 in copper near room temperature ... yes I do.





geoffkait17,590 posts10-21-2019 5:17pmThe measured difference in voltage drop is a symptom or hint that wire is directional. The lowest voltage drop will occur when the fuse or wire is in the preferred direction, in terms of sound quality. The speed of the signal is near light speed in copper. That is because ...drum roll.. the signal is photons, not electrons. If the electrons were the signal the whole thing would not work. You know, since it takes one hour for the electrons to travel one meter. That’s if the circuit is DC. Obviously in an AC circuit the electrons have a net velocity of Zero since they go back and forth along with the current

Why? Because you are starting to realize that you can't just throw up some terms in hopes of baffling me with BS?  ...

Energy passes through that fuse in both directions ... it has to. The voltage potential reverses direction and the EM field must change direction as well. Electrons move in the fuse in both directions, and the EM field in bulk will be the same. Add in that most power supplies are symmetric for both polarities of the AC line. Energy is (line feedback excepted) transferred only from the AC source to the equipment but sometimes it enters through the fuse, and sometimes, the fuse provides the exit path. Either way, it is always there, and always has an impact no matter the polarity of the AC. It is always acting as an element in the circuit, in both directions, and equally.




geoffkait17,596 posts10-21-2019 7:57pmThis conversation can serve no purpose any more.

Buddy,

Some introspection here, you are harassing me. I am telling you to stop. YOU have the choice whether to stop harassing me or not. AGAIN, INTROSPECTION. I am threatening to treat you the way YOU are already treating me. YOU are actually harassing me. STOP.  I have already reported you to moderators for doing this. I don't like doing that, but since all you are doing is harassing without bringing anything, literally nothing to the conversation, then YOU need to stop. I expect moderators will deal with you, but if they accept your harassment, then I will respond to YOU accordingly. I was previously a member of this forum for many years, but deleted my account when I got my last venture going. I don't remember your style of harassment without bringing anything to the table being tolerated. 


clearthink902 posts10-21-2019 4:32pm
roberttcan" If you keep harassing me, I will respond in spades. You won't like it."

It is a violation to threaten anyone in this forum.

It is not for you to limit, restrict, or discourage posters and contributors to this forum from sharing, expressing, or explaining they’re thoughts, observations, or opinions and regardless of you’re opinions or threats.   

Theoretically, as I noted, transmission line effects are possible, but would be at such high frequencies as to have no possible audible effects. 

Far far more likely, would be simple, and practical effects, not geoffkaits physics babble.

Fuses and fuse holders are mechanical devices. It is possible that the combination of the fuse shape and the holder shape is more conducive to lower resistance in one direction. However, don't get caught up in the trap for AC fuses that less resistance is always better.

Ditto, fuses are thermal devices, a better mechanical connection in one direction coupled with a fuse defect resulting in asymmetrical heating could cause more thermal modulation in one direction. However, unless the fuse is pushed to its limits and the amplifier has some serious serious design issues, thermal modulation of the AC fuse is not going to be audible.

I am going to go out on a limb and say you have NO formal education in physics or an engineering field deep enough to give you knowledge in this area .....

That is why you think you know what you are talking about, but don't really. You are out, because you cannot win this argument. You are out because you cannot bully me. You are out because you are wrong. That you would even bring up quantum effects when discussing the directionality of a fuse means you don't have even the most basic understanding of circuits. 

Yes, please go,  you are adding nothing to this conversation.

HOWEVER, unlike you with your half-baked physics babble, I have actually posited some REAL WORLD ways in which a fuse "could" behave different if inserted in a different direction. It's amazing what actual experience allows one to do when coupled with the theoretical knowledge to use it.

geoffkait17,597 posts10-21-2019 8:55pmSince you ask you have shown you don’t know the difference between a field and a wave. Or between an electron and a photon. And you’re unwilling to learn. You are a classic pseudo skeptic on a mission.  For those reasons I’m out. See you in the funny papers.

This is geoffkait's site? .... That is some serious good humor, especially the "smart-chip" CD treater :-) .... 


georgehifi6,010 posts10-22-2019 3:53am

roberttcan 
geoffkait If you went to school, which I seriously doubt, I suggest you run down there real fast and demand your money back. 

👍

Have a good look at his website, interesting doesn’t even begin to say what a ****** ** individual he is, he seriously need to seek professional help, it will make you shake your head.
http://www.machinadynamica.com/ 

Cheers George

Keep posting and making a bigger fool of yourself. Most people are not dumb. They will read your word salad, and then they will read my well thought out, detailed, and articulate posts. They will know exactly who the charlatan is, but please if you wish to remove all doubt, you keep doing you.


geoffkait17,599 posts10-21-2019 10:52pmIf you went to school, which I seriously doubt, I suggest you run down there real fast and demand your money back.

Or get appropriate safety testing done .... assuming it was not already when it was called something else.


glennewdick946 posts10-22-2019 5:59pmyou'd think for the money some of these fuses cost they could design a really good breaker so if something does go bad your not out the fuse just reset it (fix the issues of course) and go. seriously there are many small form breakers out there (hell look at the aircraft industry for example) so why not make a mini breaker that is Audiophile quality, buy once forget. I'd convert my fuse holder to a breaker in a min if it was better sounding and resettable.

George?

Sorry george, while you "enjoy" your retirement of anger, I am working on my next "deal" ... just a few million units ... of real electronics, that will perform a real verifiable function, not some magic rocks, that and we were putting a new Thermotron chamber into the warehouse area, and I wanted to supervise the electrical hookup and make sure the contractor for the N2 was happy with the location and spacing. 

As I design and sell real stuff, not magic rocks, I need to have real equipment, that does real things, based on real science. 
geoffkait17,689 posts10-23-2019 6:30pmSomebody’s running out of ammo. Two days and he’s already burned out.

Yes, geoff, seems bizarre to me that you would mention Nasa 190 times, and Aerospace 332 times :-)

geoffkait17,697 posts10-24-2019 5:00amIt can sometimes be a little bizarre to see people try to impress others here by using “big words” like function, verifiable and Thermotron chamber. But thanks for providing an excellent example of a logical fallacy. 

Is that because your hand is less likely to make auspicious claims? I just had a good laugh over the HiFi/Gecom "test report" you posted. You really should have vetted that first before posting it though. No worries, I know electrical/electronic is not your area of expertise so quickly identifying the flaws in the test would not be easy for you.

I think you should go back to trying to justify that differences in the integrated Poynting vector (seeing how the E-field does change for each phase of AC and hence points in each direction, leads to the B field, and that those two lead to the Poynting vector, and must be integrated over the whole field space for each direction) are going to be significant enough different with the fuse direction changed to make your system sound different. That would of course require proving the difference is on the order of thermal modulation of fuses and wires, humidity differences, the impacts of temperature change on resistance, etc.

I can wait ...

I think I am going to start calling you 332 :-)

332, I follow just fine.

You were wrong.

I proved your were wrong.

Now you are claiming you didn't say the things you clearly said,

There is no way to twist what you said and claim you meant something else. There is complete clarity in what you wrote.

Bye

You are confused because GK keeps parroting that the energy is only conveyed from source to load, hence the fact it is AC makes no difference as the energy is unidirectional (even though current is bidirectional)l, and uses this as a justification for fuse directionality.

"You can ignore the current traveling in the direction away from the speakers, I.e., toward the wall, since that direction of current flow is not (rpt not) audible."

The first statement about energy transfer direction is correct, as the energy flows towards the load along the Poynting vector. The second statement is not correct. It sounds right based on the first statement but it is not.

What GK fails to realize is that the Poynting vector is the spacially integrated cross-product of the E (electric) and B (magnetic) fields, over the WHOLE circuit, and that everywhere current is flowing (in a wire), there are E and B fields, meaning that EVERYWHERE current flows impacts the Poynting vector. If you didn’t have current flowing both towards the speakers AND away from the speakers, you wouldn’t have E and B fields and you wouldn’t have a Poynting vector and you wouldn’t have energy transfer from the source to the load. The current traveling to the speakers and away from the speakers are equally important in defining the Poynting vector.

At a macro level, the Poynting vector is the same for both polarities of the AC signal, as the E-field is structurally the same, but as opposed to that justifying that the fuse is "directional", the opposite is true.

Oh look, more of YOUR exact words saying exactly the same thing ... 

geoffkait17,732 posts10-19-2019 4:18pm
ieales440 posts10-19-2019 3:26pmFrom SR:

Electricity should flow from the left to the right when you view the fuse.

A/C current changes direction every cycle. The supreme idiocy of the statement: what if I view end on??? 


>>>>While that’s true, and for virtually all cables and power cords - the current alternates. 🔛 But you can ignore 😳 the current when it’s traveling in the direction toward the wall outlet. 🔜  The only direction we care about is the one that drives the speakers. That’s the direction that is audible.

So like 20 / 25 years? Awesome. There should be lots and lots of properly run tests that show that people can pick up the audible differences right?

What's that you say ... no you can't provide me with any links other than some old digital stuff where RCA plugs were used for controlled impedance signals and you ended up getting transmission line effects and jitter?

Really ... 20-25 years ... nada. I never would have guessed 332.  No worried, I think jae48 said he would like to set up a room at an audio show so that we can run some double blind tests like this. I am willing to put in some good money, heck I would put up a grand. You?  Wouldn't you like to, for once, be able to point to a large listening group test that clearly, in front of pundits and naysayers alike proved what you are claiming?

Yes, MFRs in audio use cryo. Why ... people will pay for it. In the business world that is pretty much the best reason there is. Spend a few dollars to drop in in liquid nitrogen, charge 50x your cost. The brilliance isn't in the engineering, it is in the marketing.

The only trap you fell into is assuming you could get away with posting marketing fluff and calling it engineering.

Appeal to bandwagon.

Let me know how that homeopathic cancer treatment works (huge apologies if you actually have cancer, this is an analogy, not a personal attack of that nature). Sales in the U.S. alone of Homeopathy products that do exactly nothing is near $450 Million. Far more than audio cables and fuses.

Do you know how many residential customers in the U.S. get sucked into buying over-priced whole home PFC products (nothing more than capacitors in a box) because someone convinced them they would save huge money on their electricity bills ... even though all residential in the US is billed for real-power only?

Is that 100,000 figure from Ted Denney?  If so, I am skeptical of that number. He also claims $10 million/year in sales. I am sure you have seen his factory tour videos? Relatively small staff and not high priced professionals. Almost no expensive equipment to pay for (so what is the real R&D overhead). Given the manufacturing margins, at $10 mil/year, they should be generating serious cash flow. Ted does not live a serious cash flow life.


geoffkait17,729 posts10-25-2019 6:14pm100,000 fancy fuses sold to date so it looks like it’s you against the world Mr. Smarty Pants 👖and looking into my crystal ball I you can probably add at least another 50,000 for the new 🍊 fuse. Snooze, you lose. 😴 By the way you didn’t interpret the data correctly. Your humble narrator did, though. 🤗 Be that as it may, as I said there really isn’t any debate any more. But you’re welcome to carry on.🕺🏻 You aren’t the only stubborn mossback in town.

It is not only WHAT You said, it is YOUR EXACT WORDS

geoffkait17,730 posts10-25-2019 6:53pmThere you go again putting words in my mouth, Mr. Marty Pants 👖. I never said any such thing. Maybe you should try keeping a log. In fact what I said somewhere along the line is that energy is a scalar quantity, which means it has no direction. Follow?

- geoffkait's exact words below. Cut and pasted from his post

"You can ignore the current traveling in the direction away from the speakers, I.e., toward the wall, since that direction of current flow is not (rpt not) audible. The only direction that’s audible for any wire is the one toward the speakers. It is the speakers that ultimately produce the sound you hear. So, it’s the “quality” of the current traveling toward the speakers that is the issue. That’s why fuses sound better in one direction, worse in the other direction in AC circuits and DC circuits. As Old Blue Eyes sez, that’s life. "

Whether you remember writing them or not 332, sorry Geoff Kait, those are, and were YOUR exact words. Claim all you want that those are not your exact words, but they are.

geoffkait17,732 posts10-13-2019 7:51amibmjunkman
OK, I am totally confused. You guys saying you use these fuses in AC circuits?

From their web site:
A: Yes, fuses are directional. Electricity should flow from the left to the right when you view the fuse. If you do not know the direction of flow you should listen to the fuse inserted in both directions. One direction will sound more detailed. This is the correct way.

I thought AC changed directions 60 times a second?

>>>>>Thanks for bringing that up. Actually most audio fuses happen to be in AC circuits. It’s true current changes direction on the wire according to where the fuse is located. If the fuse is located where power comes into the CD player, preamp or amp or whatever it changes 60 times per second. But if the fuse is located in the speaker the current changes according to frequencies of the audio waveform. Thus the current at the fuse in the speaker changes 20 to 20,000 times per second - or more or less. If the fuse is in a DC circuit obviously current is unidirectional.

You can ignore the current traveling in the direction away from the speakers, I.e., toward the wall, since that direction of current flow is not (rpt not) audible. The only direction that’s audible for any wire is the one toward the speakers. It is the speakers that ultimately produce the sound you hear. So, it’s the “quality” of the current traveling toward the speakers that is the issue. That’s why fuses sound better in one direction, worse in the other direction in AC circuits and DC circuits. As Old Blue Eyes sez, that’s life.