Time to buy a class D amp?

Hey Tim. An important attractive side of class D amps is their low price 
and high ratio performance/price. I am not sure if for Merrill class D amps this is also true. Neither you nor me have auditioned it, given their price, they should sound almost magical to have a high ratio. Buying   Merrill amp would be similar to buying a very expensive electric car. I have a hybrid one which did not cost much more than similar non-hybrid onces, this made a sense. Demo Cherry amplifiers are on sale, some of them cost nearly the half of their normal price. If their sound quality is somewhat close to  Merrill class D amps (at least, not too far), ratio performance(Cherry)/price(Cherry) >> performance( Merrill)/price( Merrill)
even considering used price. And, perhaps,  older Veritas series amps are not magic sounding (if not, why they have changed the profile of their class D amps?). I am curious to compare SQ of Cherry,  ATI, Veritas and Element amps

I have been very happy with a Wyre4sound St 750le. You can check it out on 10 Audio's review site. He favorably compares it to a single ended tube amp sound and gives it a 9.5  rating.

Has anyone posted this yet $2500  https://thelsagroup.com/products/lsa-amplifiers

Hello niodari,

     Everything you said in your last post makes perfect sense to me.  Even though I've never heard the Merrill Veritas, I consider them one of the best examples of how well class D amps can perform because all of the numerous pro reviews I've read consistently state they are excellent amps regardless of amp type and price.  

     I wasn't willing to verify this at a price tag of $12K/pair but I'm seriously considering it at $5K/pair.  However, I can verify that other class D amps offer very good performance at a much lower price.  I went this route, initially buying a Class D Audio SDS-440-CS stereo amp for $630.  This was my first D amp and I was stunned by how well this amp performed with my Magnepan 2.7QR speakers, better in all aspects than the high current class AB McCormack and Aragon amps I'd previously used that I had paid over $2K each for.  It was also about 1/3rd the size and weight, ran much cooler and sipped, rather than gulped, electricity.
     For the past 5 years, I've been using D-Sonic M3-600-M monoblocks($2,100/pair new) on my Magnepans and have been very pleased.  They're very powerful (600w@ 8 ohms, 1,200w@ 4 ohms and, I believe, stable down to 2 ohms), have great bass, powerful dynamics and a detailed but very smooth midrange and treble that I never perceive as bright or harsh.  I bought these with a 28 day free in-home trial period, they sounded very good to me right out of the box and I never considered returning them.  I did notice an occasional brightness on the upper treble but this completely disappeared over during the first few months of usage.
     I believe the D-Sonic amps should be on your short list of class D amps to audition along with the Cherry models.  If you can wait a few months, Red Dragon has stated they'll be introducing an all new lineup of stereo and monoblock amps by the end of the year.  I haven't heard of any details about their new amp lineup yet but suspect these may be good candidates for you to audition, too.


Good luck,
  Tim

Guys, perhaps, "time to buy a class D amp" is closing up... :)

Interesting developments in class D, did not think there are so many (new) brands producing class D amps listed in this thread, e.g.,  the last one, Voyager GAN 200 power amplifier at $2500 looks interesting (I think they could have a better ratio performance/price than Merrill amps). Their serial production is planed to begin this December, as Walter Liederman has notified. 

Tim, I am keen to audition D-Sonic amps (unfortunately, they are not so flexible in sending their stuff to Mexico where I am currently living). I am not sure about Red Dragon as they (S500) seem to be not so  tolerate with low impedance speakers (one below 4 ohms, see an earlier post in this thread), don't know about their new series amps that will be released soon.  Let us keep each other informed. 

Cheers

Nodari

niodari 
I am not sure about Red Dragon as they (S500) seem to be not so tolerate with low impedance speakers

Not just Red Dragon, look at any Stereophile lab test on class-D for 2ohm loading and they either. 
1:switch off and go into protection. 
2:or they don't even bother to test them because they go unstable. 
3: or their performance is very average and actually go down (have less) in total watts with 2ohms compared to 4ohms. When they should if strong with good current ability go higher by at least 1.5 x's compared to 4ohms wattage.

Cheers George

@niodari

As you can see, more and more people are making class d amplifiers...or about to make class d amplifiers.  Unless you plan to hold on to it forever...or don't care about massive depreciation when you resell, I'd suggest you buy one that is well reviewed (much easier to resell) and which you don't see being offered for resale very often (meaning people tend to like them and hold on to them).

As for a 30 day trial period for a product shipped to Mexico....maybe it won't be possible....meaning it is even more important to buy a product with a good reputation that will be easy to resell if and when the time comes.

Good Luck

Hello niodari,

     I believe most internet direct class D companies ship worldwide without too many exceptions but I'm not certain, you may want to call or email and ask.
     I agree the LSA amp looks very interesting. If it has a switching carrier frequency of about 1.5 MHz, perhaps georgehifi may even be interested.
     I'm currently very pleased with all my the class D amps I use in my system.  I strongly believe they have so many positive attributes it will be hard for them not to be the predominate amp technology in the near future.  
    At their current stage of development, I understand some preferring to use their beloved class A, top of the line class AB or tube amps.  Of course, class D has no current monopoly on high quality performance. 
    However, it's apparent that class D technology performance quality has been improving at a faster pace than the technology the more traditional amps are based on.  I envision this fast paced improvement in the performance quality of class D technology and amps to continue for the foreseeable future.  Eventually, even those afflicted with the worst cases of amp-type bias will relent in favor of improved audio quality.  Perhaps it may result from class D amps incorporating DSP circuitry that is able to mimic the sound qualities of state of the art class A and tube amps at the press of a button.


This should be fun,
        Tim

If it has a switching carrier frequency of about 1.5 MHz, perhaps georgehifi may even be interested.

No it's only got 500khz similar to everyone else with the same associated phase shift problems, but they advertised it as "very fast 500,000hz switching" just to intimate it's even quicker, "but 500,000hz is 500khz", that was fixed in their ad once pointed out to them.
So you draw your own conclusion to what kind of manufacturer they are for tying one on.

The class D landscape will quite possibly change in the next 12-24 months....  
All these issues of contention may be going bye bye.... (and then we can bitch about something else, as we will do that regardless)

    Hah!  Words of sardonic wisdom.  Well said, teo_audio.


Tim

Last I checked this is about listening to music not about technical specifications.  All components will sound different paired with other components.  As with anything high end it is best to demo it, preferably at home and see how you like it.

Many people love the sound of class D.  Just look at Bel Canto’s Black line.  Many people absolutely love their unique approach to combining DAC, preamp, and amps in one system.  I have been eyeing their Black EX Integrated, just haven’t gotten around to demo it.

Last I checked this is about listening to music not about technical
specifications.

When you keep using specs which are unproven to related to listening experience one way or another, you might as well be using dowsing rods.

eziggy:"Last I checked this is about listening to music not about technical specifications.  All components will sound different paired with other components.  As with anything high end it is best to demo it, preferably at home and see how you like it."

  Hello eziggy,

     I agree, auditioning a class D amp, and really auditioning any prospective amp, is best done in your room with your own other system components.  I also agree with Erik that using a dowsing rod would likely be an ineffective method for choosing a system amplifier.  Critical listening to an amp prospect, preferably during a multi-week in-home trial period if you're able,  is probably the better method.

Tim

Yes for sure, that's what I was trying to say.  At the end it's all about what is sounds good to you in your own system.  Pretty much it!

A few days really doesn't do it justice either, to your point, an extended trial is important.

Hey Ziggy,

     Agreed.  My 1st class D amp I bought about 6 years ago, a Class D Audio SDS-440-CS, came with a 28 day in-home free trial.  It sounded very good straight out of the box but it kept improving in sound quality well past the trial period.  I think its important that prospective class D amp purchasers are aware of this 'break-in period' which may last up to several months.  
     I'm still not even sure if the class D amps require a break-in period or the listener/buyer actually needs an adjustment period to get use to the sound of the amp.  From my perspective, I noticed immediately that the amp was a big improvement over the good quality class AB amps I had previously used for decades (Adcom, Aragon and McCormack) that was pleasantly surprising in its quality but I also sensed it was a fundamentally different listening experience that I thoroughly enjoyed.
     It was initially hard to describe what specifically the sound qualities were that gave me a sense of being fundamentally different but the more I listened to the new class D amp, the more it became apparent exactly what these qualities were.  The major sound differences I identified were an extremely low noise floor that gave the impression the music was emerging from an inky black and dead-quiet background, improved bass impact and dynamics, a more neutral overall presentation that also was more detailed from top to bottom and a smoothness to the midrange and treble response without brightness or harshness and the ability to portray a solid 3D soundstage that's at least the equal of my previous class AB amps. 

     All of the above just further supports our advice for auditioning any amp one's considering in their home and system prior to buying when possible.  I just wanted to let prospective class D amp buyers about what to expect.


Later,
Tim

Hi,

This is in response to the original post of Niodari.  I have the same setup but for power amplification I use M700 monoblocs.  For my digital front I have the DirectStream with Bridge II, and for my analogue front I use two turntables with PS Audio's Stellar Phono Preamp. I enjoy listening to Jazz and Classical.

Before considering a new amp, may I suggest looking at interconnects, and speaker cables as well as the incoming power line for interference from any transformers / adapters that are connected in parallel. I would start with the power conditioner and the devices that share it with the pre - power combo.  

One of the options you may want to test-drive is Van Den Hul The Second in XLR format. Linear Carbon has unique audio characteristics. Once you have exhausted the possibility of improvement with interconnects, you may wish to test-drive your speaker cables. There reasonably priced very good cables from AudioQuest, Tellurium Q, QED, Black Rhodium, and Chord Co.  

Has anyone had AM/FM reception problems when using Class D amplifiers?

No.

atmosphere is right on this one.  class d is just like any other amp.  the sound is in the details of the designer.  noise your dog can hear?  old crt monitors exibit a whine at 36000hz.  you cant hear it.  Ive heard terrible class d amps and wonderful class d amps.  issues are up to the amps design and all variants can sound great if designed well.

Hello turnbowm,

     While it is true that class D amps in general emit radio frequency (RF) energy that can interfere with AM/FM frequency reception, class D amp designers are very well aware of this issue and typically make containing, controlling and attenuating these RF emissions a top priority in their designs.  
     If all class D amps were to be tested and ranked by RF emissions, however, I suspect the results would vary significantly between amps and that they'd also likely be directly related to the skill level of each amp's designer and the new retail price of each amp. 
     OTOH, I've purchased and used many stereo and monoblock class D amps in my system ranging in price between $630 and $2,200 and have never had AM/FM reception problems in my rooms with any of them.

Tim

Best class D i can think of is without a doubt Bel Canto Black ACI 600.Most likely the best single chassis class D integrated amp out there, probably better than more expensive separates.

noble100,

Thanks for your detailed, informative reply. Much appreciated.

Jeff Rowland is an excellent class D ICE POWER amp. Nice option. Very nice.
Try to listen, just it. 
Just it. Just listen.

Hello niodari,

     In retrospect, I’ve been so impressed with class D amps in general that I’ve consistently upgraded to better performing examples over the past 7 years or so. I began my class D journey with what I consider the budget king of D amps, the Class D Audio SDS-440-CS stereo amp, that was a good quality example at the exceptionally low bargain price of $630 at that time.
     Mainly out of curiosity a year later, I bought an even more competent class D stereo amp, the Emerald Physics EP-101.2-SE, on sale at the time for about $1,000 and a noticeably superior performer.
About another year later after reading numerous very good reviews, I bought my 1st pair of mono-block class D amps, the D-Sonic M3-600-M for $2,100/pair that were and are the best performing amps I’ve ever driven my main Magnepan 2.7QR speakers with by a large margin. I’m still utilizing these as my main speaker amps about 5 years later in my combo 2-ch music and HT system. My 2 stereo class D amps I purchased have been  used in my system as surround sound channel amps with very good results and are still going strong.
     So, I’ve been climbing the class D upgrade ladder for the past 7 years and enjoying the entire slow ascent continually along the journey. I’ve progressed from good performance rung to the better rung and I’m currently on the very good class D performance rung of the ladder. Now, I have a keen urge and curiosity about the prospects for my overall system performance quality if I climb another rung higher and purchase one of the best class D amplification examples currently available.
     I currently believe the current top rung of the class D ladder probably equates to the newly released Merrill Audio Element 118 monoblock amps or the Technics model which both utilize the GaN extremely fast switching transistors. Interestingly, I was talking to Merrill of Merrill audio recently and he stated he’s discovered the older GaN transistors sound better than the newest ones.
     However, being now retired and on a reduced fixed income, buying a pair for of either for about $36K/pair for them would likely entail me being required to dine on cans of cat food for my remaining years. As attractive as that sounds, I’ve decided to instead settle for the penultimate rung on the class D upgrade ladder by eating tastier meals and purchasing one of the following 2 preamp and amp upgrades for my system soon:

Option#1. For a total of about $10K, buying a pre-owned Levinson 326S preamp and a pair of Merrill Veritas mono-blocks. Merrill also told me he’s getting numerous pairs of Veritas back as trade-ins that he’s doing complete inspections on and reselling for about $5K/pair.
My requirements for a preamp are at least two balanced xlr inputs, at least one balanced xlr output, a convenient HT passthru capability, a precision volume control with 1db or less adjustments, under about $8K used and a good remote.

Option#2. For a total of about $12-$14K, buying a pre-owned Mola Mola "Suite" consisting of a Makua preamp and a pair of Kaluga mono-blocks.

     Both of these options are about 50% less than new and I’m currently in the middle of my search for units in very good condition and with a current preference for option#2. Unfortunately, I’m unable to audition either option in my system but I’m looking for dealers or individuals, within about a 100 mile radius of Indianapolis, who may have any of this gear available for demo and purchase.
     My goal is to purchase within the next month. I’ll also have a Parasound Halo P6 preamp w/remote and a pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M mono-blocks, both in very good condition, available soon for purchase at very reasonable prices if anyone’s interested.


Tim

Having owned 3 class AB integrateds before, I have started my class D journey with a pair of Calyx Femti power amplifiers, which I still have on a 2nd system. They are based on an ICEpower 125ASX2 module. Having liked them, my 2nd amp was a Wyred 4 Sound STI-500v2, also based on a pair of 125ASX2, no coincidence.

Then I decided to upgrade to separates and tried in my system a friend's Nord NC500 with the Rev C Sparkos small opamps. I liked what I heard and decided to keep Wyred 4 Sound as a preamp (bought the excellent STP-SE stage 2) and chose my 3rd class D amplifier to be an Apollon NC800SL, also based on a pair of Hypex NC500 modules, but with the larger Sparkos opamps. This current pair of separates cost me about 4.5k usd (preamp was 2nd hand), which is a steal. This pair is a giant killer and I think it would be very, very difficult to beat without spending some big money (tens of thousands).

The STI-500v2 integrated went to my brother's system by the way, so all class D amps are still in the family. :)

What is it with Class-D owners, my last loved amp lasted more than 8 years, sources usually 4-5 years.
But Class-D owners seem to be in a hurry to get somewhere by changing their Class-D's like like they are a pair of socks or jocks.

Cheers George

Class D world economic stimulus packages.  Plus we don't lose our socks as much when we sell them on the used market.

I went from a Parasound A21 to Class D, no difference in sound.

With no difference in sound, the Class D was a better amp. Cheaper, cooler, less expensive to run.


The Luxman I replaced it with beat them both, at 6x the price.

I went from a Parasound A21 to Class D, no difference in sound.

Something seriously wrong there.

Hey Tim, 

Good intentions, I wish you to come to a correct choice (by the way, 
it would be interesting to try your D-sonic momoblocks
in case you wish to sell them). 

My journey to class D is not yet so extensive, in fact it it remains at an initial step - a light journey to Class D via class A, a non-expensive experiment that i made I have tried to replace PS Audio Gain Cell ($1700) pre/DAC with a Nuprime PHA-9 ($650)
as a pre for PS Audio power Stellar S300, with a quite positive  result. The Nuprime has surpassed my expectations
(also taking into account its price):  instead of a wax clinic sound
now Stellar gives a live open well balanced sound that
is already pleasing for audition - an essential difference for me, from non-pleasing to a pleasing sound. HPA-9 is class A, it gets hot and the hotter it gets the better it sounds - no way, this is how class A works. Supposedly, it is designed to give a tube-like sound, which, i think, is achieved. It turns our that the cosmetics may change the face -- something that i did not expect. Perhaps, some tube pre would even do better, but i am not currently interested in this, as a good value Nuprime has already emerged. I feel now safer and becoming convinced that class D may attain what i wish.

My goal though is to stay in class D -- not yet clear if it is possible. We need to find a class D pre that does the job correctly,  without any cosmetics, and then see if a power class D amp will give a desired result.  

To this end, I soon expect to receive a Cherry MEGAschino class D power amp and a Cherry DAC with a volume control. It is a demo  MEGAschino  (DAC is also demo) unit sold for $3900, $2200 below its retail price. You may wish  to hold on, I will let you know about my impressions on Cherry amp in a near future.

According to what i read,  MEGAschino  is comparable with the best class A amps (@matias do you know how  MEGAschino  compares with your class D Apollon NC800SL?).  I feel it should be close to the reality, i will keep you posted. 

Cheers

Hello niodari,

    Yes, my goal is to stay in class D, too. I've tried to keep up with class D developments for years now and I've been thrilled with the performance of all the D amps I've purchased thus far. The downside of this is I'm constantly learning about class D amps that get very good reviews and I'm always curious and want to give them a try in my system, which can get expensive.  
     My current plan is a good example.  My system is performing very well right now and my D-Sonic M3-600-M mono-blocks are excellent for both music and HT.  My Parasound Halo P-6 sounds very good but I'd like a smaller preamp, perhaps a class D with a smaller remote and a more precise volume control.  I really have no good reason for buying new class D mono-blocks other than very good reviews on the Mola Mola Kalugas and the Merrill Veritas along with a curiosity about how they'd perform in my system.  
     I'm currently planning on buying the Mola Mola Makua preamp and Kaluga amps in the next 30 days or so but I'll also look at the Megaschino and Cherry dac if it can also serve as a single balanced xlr input preamp.
     When the new equipment arrives, I'd definitely be willing to sell my D-Sonic amps to you if you'd like to buy them.  They're both in flawless operational and cosmetic condition.  I believe I still have their original packaging and manual. They were $2,100 new and would probably be asking $900 for the pair with their pair of isolation platforms available for purchase for an additional$100. My system details have some photos of both and, if you live close enough to Noblesville, Indiana, you're welcome to stop by and check them out in person if you'd like.

Thanks,
  Tim

Thanks Tim
I do not plan to be close by in near future but will bear your proposal in mind. If you will visit Mexico i would suggest you the same.

As i told you, i will let you know about my impressions on Cherry Megaschino and Cherry DAC with volume control once i will have them. Earlier i have ordered a more moderate Cherry DAC 1 tb which gives a pleasant tube -like sound. I have bough a demo one for about 400$ and it sounds  not much worse than $7000 reymio dap 777 thought it has a single input, as one i have ordered recently. 

I remain curious to audition your d sonic monoblocks. 

@matias do you know how MEGAschino compares with your class D Apollon NC800SL?

No idea, I am curious about them too.

Hello niodari,

     Sorry, I forgot you're in Mexico.  I'll be down in a couple days and I'll bring the amps.  Don't worry, my wife and I will be out of your place by Spring.  Winters are a bit cold up here.
     Looking forward to your impressions.  I've been reading about the Cherry Megaschino and it seems like a good one.

Best wishes,
    Tim
  

Noble100....see my new listing on Mola Mola Kaluga and Makua.  

Sorry @hm1 (Howard Milstein) but not a single negative comments in any of your reviews that I read. They all appear to be written as advertisements. 

Here's a good example of what I mean (W4S mINT review):

Out of curiosity, I decided to laboriously drag out my almost 40-year-old vintage Spendor BC3, loudspeakers (known to have a pretty horrendous impedance curve as many of the finest amps sound quite unhappy trying to drive it). To my surprise, the Mint made this speaker ‘sing’ like I had not heard in many years! 

Horrendous impedance?

Since when is 8 ohms and SPL of 105 dBA  Horrendous? ANY Class-D amp should have no sweat driving these speakers.

Specifications:
Type.................................four-way, floorstanding loudspeaker
L.F unit............................Spendor 12 inch (plastic cone)
M.F unit...........................Spendor 8 inch (1.5 inch voice coil, plactic coil)
H.F unit...........................Celestion Type HF 1300 and type HF 2000
Crossover points.............700Hz to 3kHz to 13kHz
Impedance......................8 ohm
Frequency range............30Hz to 20kHz
Frequency response......+/- 2.5dB, 50Hz to 14kHz
Power rating...................70 Watts
Sensitivity.....................  +2.5dB relative to 1dyne/cm square/volts applied
Sound pressure level.....105 dBA
Connection...................."XLR" 4pin
Weight............................75lbs

Dang, that Mola Mola listing by Willgolf would be a nice catch by someone that can afford it. The benefits of depreciation but with something unused.

I am really enjoying my first foray into Class D. I swapped out the fuse for an SR Orange and added a Wireworld Electra power cable. Even Spotify sounds surprisingly great (to me).

With no music playing, my speakers are dead quiet, no ocean noise. The only thing I am missing from my previous class A is the heat it would be pumping into my living room during these frosty Southern Cal Winter evenings.

Class D amps are going sound different then Class A or Class AB amps but in a good way. I think they should be judged on their own merits and naturally we will always make them comparisons as we should. It is much like going from gasoline driven cars to electric. With the point in mind that the fastest car on the planet is an electric car.

not yet

Stringreen rightfully so but my point is that Class D amps are fast efficient with less parts. But let me make it clear I'm not completely ready to give up my Conrad Johnson amp and I will use your words, not yet. I will use Class D amps because I like what they bring to the table so I will use both. If I get bored with one I will insert the other.

Class D stands for drier than a desert.

Ralph Karsten of Atmosphere was granted a patent on Class D architecture,  https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=10469042&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnp...

NO NO!!

I did not understand what kind of patent is this as class D amps are widely used for already more than a decade. 

Meanwhile, I have some class D updates and can share my first (still superficial) impressions on a class D Cherry MEGAschino  amp (a demo stereo version). I got it recently from  Tommy O from DAC (Digital Audio Company) together with a (demo)  DAC SHV 2 with volume control. 

Let me note that MEGAschino  is not a typical representative of class D: it is quite heavy (about 20 kilos), not as small, it does get hot (not extremely hot) and costs a few times more than an average class D amp. So nice characteristics of a class D amp are not present in this amp, which is based on a module  designed by the same company (DAC). At the same time, it gives a detailed, clear non-wax and non-frozen music reproduction. I can even say that the sound quality is more alive and detailed than that of  may class AB amps, a surprise for me. Roughly, it sounds like a good solid state class A amp while gets less hot and is still less heavy. Again, these are my first impressions that might be completed or/and altered later. 

At the same time, i am not impressed with DAC SHV 2 (about $1500 new). It has a single digital input. As a (passive) preamplifier, it was not so efficient with MEGA -- the sound had no dynamics. As a DAC, it is slightly better than PS Audio Gain Cell (slightly more soundstage and definition), but Gain Cell costs the same and is also a real preamplifier (with enough number of digital inputs, several line inputs, coaxial, optical, USB etc). 

Currently I use $650 Nuprime  HPA 9 headphone amp with MEGA as a preamplifier, with very positive results (although HPA 9 is class A). My desire to stay in class D is not (yet) fulfilled. Though  in terms of ratio performance/price  MEGAschino may not beat other class D amps, in absolute terms, it is a very good sounding amplifier. I hope I will stay with it in my main system.