Thoughts On Turntable Clamps And Weights

@terry9 Thank you for directing me toward these products.

I am looking at the Recommended Brands 13mm ID Bush Bearing. 

The Bush is looking like it will require a shaft close to 22mm ID which I assume will need to be designed to enable the potting of the part and allow for a air supply to be connected.

These are dimensions that I feel confident of being not too far from from the alternative dimensions to be selected.

I am keen to pass on the link and receive the feedback from the Engineer.

Thanks for reporting back. I think you correctly assessed the info… light weight clamp. I know my TT would not do well with a heavy… perhaps even a light weight.

@pindac

I think you mean ’thrust bushing’. Only a very few commercial TT offer an air cushion in all three dimensions, as does a thrust bushing, and they are all well north of 100K.

Their 35mm thrust bushing can support up to 60kg, so safely 45, which is what I use. Supports 60kg and resets a radial force a hundred times more than we need. The perfect solution in one piece.

I have dealt with New Way for years, and they are very good to deal with. If I were doing it again, I would get them to make the spindle as well - expensive, but guaranteed to work to the highest specification.

You can afford it when you are saving 100k !

@terry9 Thank You again, the penny has completely dripped and I am a duck to water on this one.

I can not see any reason to avoid making this info known, to both of the individuals I spend time with who produce TA's and work on TT's, I see this info as something they may seriously consider adopting. There selected Bearings used on their TA's are extremely 'state of the art' and 'Rocking Horse Poo' to find a small in qty supply source. 

Such an idea as yours must surely stimulate their thoughts, as it has my own.  

Terry, no, I am not talking or thinking about a loss of high frequencies in the audible range. Suffice to say I prefer the L07D without its peripheral ring. Any adjective I choose is bound to give someone somewhere the wrong impression. Language fails us.

@lewm  Understood. Thanks.

@pindac  The factory will sell to you directly, at least, they sell directly to me. Also, they give free advice. I find it easiest to buy everything from them: air fittings, shafting, end blocks to support shafting, etc. I also use their 20mm air bushing for my LT tonearm - there's a picture of it in the DIY audio thread on air bearing LT's.

IF you go air on your TT, it's natural to go with air for the TA. You'll need a good compressor - I use a stainless steel commercial unit from Werther (Italy), model CWF100 TC INOX. Only disadvantage is that it's noisy and has to go in it's own shed, outside the house. If noise is a consideration, consider the Val-air series, also by Werther.

Good luck!

@pindac If you are interested, it's on page 25 of the DIY Air Bearing Linear Arm thread at DiyAudio. The whole thread is worth reading. I learned a lot that was very useful - like the importance of 1/32" Tygon tubing.

I will be digesting everything I discover on this subject.

I am also to look into if a Bearing can be designed to work on a selection of owned Brands of Japanese Vintage TT's.

The Stator Bowls will be dimensioned to see where a common measurement is compatible with available New Way parts.

I like to keep the designs reversible, which means Stator Bowls may need to be produced as a increased substance, which will accommodate the original and new attached parts.

CNC producing a Permali Stator Bowl will be on the to do list, as this is a method, I have been proposing for quite some time, for the exchange of a original stator bowl. The earliest idea being the Densified Wood being a superb material to remove most energies formed and transferred from the Bowl to the Chassis.

The D'wood Bowl will be much more suitable to manage the reduction of the Motor Torque Energy and Spindle Housing energy, in a manner that is much better than a Pressed or Cast Metal is capable of. 

The design for the Bearing Housing will be much more easier to use with a Idler Drive TT, and I will be very keen to see what it does to the produced sonic. 

Never used a clamp, but I can tell you that a weigh made of brass or any Non Ferrous metal or even marble makes a very noticeable difference.

All the Best.

If a stator bowl is what I think it is, you may as well redesign and replace the whole motor. And once you’ve done that, you need to address the function of any speed control mechanism. If you go deeply into that area, you may succeed in never having a functional turntable, as one problem leads to another.

Well said. A synchronous AC motor is a safer bet, so a good first step.

@bolong Indeed an elegant solution that adds $5,000.00 to the cost of a $22,000.00 turntable available for purchase on both coasts of the US of A. 
See https://almaaudio.com/ for Bergman Audio products to include the Bergman-Galder turntable with vacuum clamp. Tone arms sold separately, but you can mount four (4) of them on the table. They have dealers all over the world  https://bergmannaudio.com

A record weight or clamp should damp spurious vibrations, not try to flatten a warped disc. Have a look at the Origin Live Record Weight - The Gravity One.

The Stator Bowl, is one area of a design that has been severely scrimped on.

I have witnessed the gauge for metal used for pressing/casting that is close to a range of 1/64 - 1/8.

I have done work on rigidly bracing the base of the bearing housing and have encouraged others to adopt methods to achieve the same end.

The improvements discovered are worthy of mentioning and the reports from those that have adopted this as a method are again not to be overlooked.

As I own a 3" (75mm) Thick Board of Permali, I am in a position to have the Bowl formed as a recess in the chassis, which will not be a thin flimsy add on, prone to flexion and deflection, the Stator and other parts for the drive will be directly attached to the Permali Wood, the original bowl will be redundant.

What really matters is how the new bearing housing interfaces with the Permali Bowl and how the Platter Spindle is catered for as it passes through the Bowl and Stator and other parts of the drive.

This is to be my design for the Kaneta, as an alternative to the original motor drive being bedded into a substantial chassis.

At present there are two Kaneta designs at hand, one as a thick laminated wood chassis and the other a single P'holz Board chassis.

There is at present one electronically modified TT, at hand to the used with the two mounting methods.

Another TT will need to be a donor model to produce my Permali Chassis version, where the modified electronics can be shared to have the experience of both types. 

As an aside, I was yesterday involved in what I will refer to as a healthy conversation with my Engineer friend about Air Bearings 😎, I do like the general expressed ideas being made known.

You might want to investigate the modifications made by Richard Krebs for Technics SP10 Mk2 and Mk3.  He spent a lot of time investigating the stators and how to stabilize them.  I have had my own Mk3 modified according to Richard's Ideas, by a local tech who learned the procedure from Krebs himself and is one of a few persons in the USA qualified to perform the modification.  The idea being that these motors have enough torque such that the stators are subject to movement in a direction opposite to that of the platter, when torque is required.  This causes the servo to "read" a speed instability where there may be none, and thus a kind of oscillation is possible where the servo is calling for unnecessary speed correction.  This in theory can cause an audible coloration. Unfortunately, the actual modifications are shrouded in mystery; I can only say the changes seem to involve the stators.  I can also say that even though I heard no real "problem" with the Mk3 a priori, the Krebs mod really did rmake the Mk3 sound more like real music.  I did hear, and have so stated in this Forum, a slight "gray-ish" coloration in the SP10 Mk2, when I owned one.  I assume the Krebs mod would be beneficial to reduce or eliminate that issue in the Mk2.  The good news is that the Krebs mod on the Mk2 is less expensive than on the Mk3  I am quite sure the Krebs mod(s) do not include the introduction of Panzerholz or the like.

@lewm  The Engineer I use, is an individual renowned for their knowledge and their unique modification works carried out on the SP10 MkII, my own SP10 MkII is modified by this person.

I can assure you that others, that are renowned in their own Countries (yes even the US)  for their works done on Japanese Vintage TT's, have picked my engineer friends brain at some point.  

I have had many a discussion about the ideas behind the engineers practices and how the practices of others are said to impact on the SP10 MkII.

I don't believe there is much that can be done to my own TT, that will improve on it electronically, or for speed control.

The next frontier is the attempts to improve the mechanical interface for the seating of the drive gear and the Platter Spindle Bearing being a complete overhaul and not the already put in place upgrade for the assembly on  the one I have in use.

As stated previously, I am keen to learn, if the rethink for the Platter Spindle Bearing, can be one that is able to be transferred onto other Brands models, if the Stator Bowls are remade using a CNC to accommodate the new bearing housing design. 

The CNC owner has access to substantial thicknesses of Thermoplastics, and has the programming skills which can produce items to low microns as a tolerance.

Alternatively for the individual like myself, the Bowl replacement can be a simple affair to, where there is a Top Flange plate fastened to a thick walled cylinder of the ideal ID/OD, that has a base fastened to the side wall as well.    

The world of modifying these vintage turntables is such a tiny one, I can only wonder why you cannot include the name(s) of these "renowned" engineers so others might benefit.  And the engineer might also benefit in terms of increased earnings. In any case, the Krebs modification is worthwhile based on my listening to the Mk3 before vs after, if that interests anyone.  Richard Krebs resides in New Zealand.  I have never met him. He is lately known for the K3 turntable which is his build, now sold by Oswald Mills Audio for huge bucks.

I'm running a Rega Planar 10.  They recommend no weight or clamp.  Of course the Rega strategy is about the lack of mass.  I have an HRS center weight with which I might try a listing test.  It's currently holding down my Eight Switch which tends to move with all the ethernet cables pulling in it.  An expensive paper weight.

Short answer to the OP: No.

It’s impossible to generalize about clamps and weights for turntables. It depends on the turntable. Some are designed to use them. Some will end up with destroyed bearings if you do where the weight is too much. Some motors will struggle with the added weight. Suspended tables might be thrown out of adjustment with them. Some turntables otherwise might work but not necessarily sound better. It depends.

I use a 1 kg weight and a 1.5 kg outer ring, but my TT is specifically designed for that use, and it sounds better that way.

Did I mention?...it depends.

There are now a few posts from different members, where the members are making it known a 1Kg as the added Spindle Weight is their selected choice. Seemingly the additional weight at this capacity, creates the presentation that is noticeably being an improvement for the produced sonic. 

If a individual has a means to trial a weight of approx' 1Kg and feels confident a temporary usage of such a weight will not impact on their TT Set Up.

It is a weight well worth considering, as in my own situation, my TT's presentation when becoming sound, gathers and is much more of a attraction when the 1Kg is in use as a comparison to 'no weight' and the selection of 'other weights' I have at hand.

As stated before my 1Kg Weight is a composite, it is a DIY assembly (main proportion of weight is Stainless Steel) and I assume others reporting on a 1Kg Spindle weight are a single type material, metal, wood, stone? 

@pindac My 1 kg center clamp is a Monarch Systems Ultra Carbon TC-40 clamp. It's a combination of stainless steel and carbon fiber.

@dwette Thank You for confirming your Weight Type.

It looks like a Composite Weight produced with the main proportion being SS, with a weight of approx' 1Kg has a few advocates.

My assumptions once more, are not as correct as I had suggested 😉.

First hand experience is always the best way to gather info to present a evaluation or report on an encounter.

@pindac Since the subject of composite 1 kg clamps interests you.

Previously I used a Harmonic Resolution Systems (HRS) ADH clamp. That one is 850 gr., made of stainless steel with a rubber composite base. In contrast to the Ultra Carbon TC-40 I use now, I felt that the HRS SDH deadened the midrange a bit and cast a bit of veil over midrange detail. The TC-40 is a bit more lively and open. The HRS ADH is now discontinued, and I wonder if that has something to do with it no longer being available. Maybe not.

I would like to try the Clearaudio Innovation clamp. It is 740 gr, made of stainless steel with an ebony base, but it is rather expensive (more than twice the Ultra Carbon). On the other hand, I have a Clearaudio Innovation Wood turntable and use the Clearaudio outer ring, so maybe it has some synergy the 3rd party clamps are missing? IDK, just a thought. I might ask the Musical Surroundings rep to bring one along to try when he is in town to visit my dealer.

@dwette We are now having a cross over of our thoughts on this subject.

Firstly I can’t use a Rubber Material with Vinyl for extended periods, it is usually only in use for a demo’ purpose only.

I am a advocate of Densified Wood, of which one Brand of this material type is Panzerholz.

Clearaudio are quite involved in producing designs where Panzerholz is seen as a material of importance, I suspect there will be a Spindle Weight available with Panzerholz in place of Ebony at some point.

I have been demo’d a DIY Panzerholz Spindle Weight and have been impressed with it when used in comparison to other materials used for weights on a PTP Solid Nine TT.

The PTP was used as the TT, when a group of seven HiFi Group Members had a meeting where a Mat and Weight comparison was being demo’d, with differing materials being tried in conjunction with each other.

My next port of call, when the Vinyl Source is back in daily use, is to have my SS weight modified and produced as a SS composite with Densified Wood, I have enough of a good experience with both these materials to suspect the marriage will be a long lasting one.

@pindac As you can well imagine I am familiar with the Panzerholtz material. Both my Innovation Wood, and the Ovation I had before it have Panzerholtz plinths.

Clearaudio's Statement clamp has a Panzerholtz base, but as I recall it is now $1200 U.S. (the Innovation clamp is about $750). That's a lot of money for a record clamp.

I would still like to hear what a clamp with a wood base (be it Ebony or Panzerholtz) sounds like.

@dwette I have worked with Plinth Materials for a long time(since the 90's).

I have evolved from Mass, leaving behind Granite Monolith type structures for a lighter material. 

This endeavour has enabled myself to try out different materials as well as meet with others and receive demo's of their versions of a Plinth.

As a result I have been able to experience in use different Stone Types (inclusive of resin formed composites), Wood Based Types and in Two experiences where a Lead Composite and Solid Aluminium Metal is the Plinth. 

On my preferred TT Model using the same Tonearm > Headshell > Cartridge > Mounting Rack > Audio System, the following has taken place.

I have been comparison demo'd a variety of Plinths produced from what was my most preferred material for many years, ( a highly compressed polyurethane foam @ 700Kg per m3) > (Birch Plywood @ 700Kg per m3) > ( MU 25 Beech Plywood - Non Resin Impregnated Compressed Board @ 900Kg m3) > (Panzerholz B25 - Phenolic Resin Impregnated Beech Plywood @ 1400Kg m3)

Each material in use is able to create a variant to the sonic being produced.

I own the MU25 and this was the first in use, it was not showing too much to be considered as a detraction.

The Birch Plywood followed and was instantly and noticeably unattractive in comparison to the MU25. It was easily deselected for further use, the owner of the Birch Plywood Plinth was quite astonished at how he was feeling sure the Plywood Plinth was a good material choice.

The Compressed Foam in comparison to the MU25 proved to be similarly voiced, , I was of the the view, the Foam was the more attractive material.

The owner of the Panzerholz Plinth was very familiar with MU25 as a Plinth Material as well, due to their past usage of the material.

Once having experienced the Panzerholz there was no further wanting to return to comparing any of the other materials.

The two non-P'holz Plinth Owners at this demo', of which I was one, are now owners of P'holz Plinths. The impact the material has had, has resulted, that it cost myself and the other individual £1000 to get a Board of P'holz into our possession to have a our Plinths Produced and have other options.

As a side: Linn's latest announcement for a TT, is making it known they are now to be using a Resin Impregnated Densified Wood.      

I wonder what a Panzerholz isolation base would be like, with the proper feet? I have a isoAcoustics Delos 3" Maple platform I use for the Innovation. Technically I have exceeded the weight limit for it by about 8 lbs, but I don’t have any isolation issues that I can hear.

I’m going to stand pat on my current record clamp, until I can hear what the Clearaudio Innovation and/or Statement clamps sound like, not that I want to spend their kind of money for one.

@dwette As I have Plinth Size Boards, I have loaned a assembly of a Sub-Plinth / Sub Sub-Plinths with AT-616 Isolation footers.

This assembly has been used in a variety of systems for both Vinyl and CD Source and Valve Power Amp's. There has been enough discoveries made to strongly suggest this method is most ubiquitous I have encountered for producing effects on a sonic that are a improved attraction in a range of environments.

The Two owners of the P'holz Plinths referred to in the earlier post are both using P'holz Sub-Plinths in conjunction with their P'holz Plinths.

I made a offer to a Clearaudio TT owner to enable them to receive a free Permali Board Sample of a Sub-Plinth Dimension, this was not followed up on.

I believe the same sample offer may have now been taken up by a Garrard 401 owner.

If the Sub-Plinth was to be supplied by Taiko Audio, their remuneration for a daiza plinth would be close to £1000

 https://taikoaudio.com/taiko-2020/daiza-isolation-platform/?v=79cba1185463     

@dwette 

In order for a suspension to isolate a turntable from environmental noise it has to have a resonance frequency between 1.5 and 3 Hz. This is a mechanical filter in which you have a mass and a set of springs with a given rate to produce the correct resonance frequency. If the springs are not tuned to the mass you have an ineffective method of isolation. In other words all that other stuff does not work. Turntables that have such suspensions include Basis, SME, Sota, Avid, some Kuzmas, The LP12, Dohmann and I am sure I am missing a few. There are platforms that you can order or adjust for the mass of your turntable such as the MinusK and Vibraplane. 

And a mechanism for damping the oscillation at the resonant frequency.  Otherwise, the TT will constantly bounce at its resonant frequency, once excited.  How does a car do without shock absorbers?  This has been an issue with spring loaded TTs since the original AR was launched.  The AR was actually better than some that came later, in that regard.

@coppy777 

You and any other Rega turntable owner , you might want to try the Clearaudio Clever Record clamp  , it's lightweight and uses friction to hold the record down .

@mijostyn Thanks for the info.

My turntable is a non-suspended design. At some point I will try a Harmonic Resolution Systems (HRS E1X) isolation base for it. Those are tuned for type and weight of component, but it won’t work with my current setup space-wise. I have a isoAcoustics Delos sitting on top of a Naim Fraim rack that works well enough. I am in a smallish room (11’ x 17’) with large floor standers and a pair of REL subs. As it is I am getting excellent performance and don’t have isolation issues that I hear, even if I play bass heavy music at volume (although I mostly listen to classical and jazz at low to moderate volumes).

Next year I plan to move the system to a larger living room. At that time I plan to revisit siting my turntable, possibly on a wall shelf (I have a Solidsteel WS-5 in storage).

Still, I have no obvious isolation issues, so I’m not planning to throw an excessive amount of money at it. I have other priories. :)

As an individual who has trialled a range of materials as a Support and assembled these materials into various configurations of a Structure to support equipment, I can only encourage others to try out their own investigations.

I have not and do not intend on trying out a Isolation Platform from a Brand that comes with multiple $K's to be parted with for the experience to be had.

My journey has already got me to a place that I am very content with, at present I am not in the ball park of multi $K's spent and with the upcoming inclusion of a Board to be used as a Sub Plinth produced from a Resin Impregnated Densified Wood, even though carrying a increased cost than usually met, I have witnessed enough from the use of this material to be able to see this as my journey's end.       

@dwette ,

Get a seismograph app on your phone, place the phone on the surface your turntable is sitting on and lightly tap the surface. Now put the phone on your platter and lightly tap the same surface. Play another source loudly with a lot of bass and check out the vibration you can measure in different locations. Your phonograph cartridge is more sensitive than the seismograph. I can not qualify the difference you will hear when you put your turntable on an isolation platform but you will hear a difference and wonder why you had not done this years ago. What you are listening to now might best be related to mud. This is why the AR XA made such a splash in the 60s.  

At the moment I have my TT on an isolation platform, and that one will just have to do for now. It may not be a perfect solution, but it's good enough. I listen to a lot of large scale orchestral music and hear plenty of inner detail, and the soundstage and imaging are quite stable. I'm happy listening to music on it.

I'm not going to invest in thousands for isolation when I don't even know yet where the system will be sited long term.

@dwette I am using a Wall Shelf, but not for my Vinyl Source, it is used for a CDT and Valve DAC.

I am aware how the Vinyl Source works on a Wall Shelf with different methods of supporting the Sub Platform and have remained with a construction for a support I have developed over quite a period of time.

There are friends I visit who have their set ups on a Wall Shelf and a few have the P'holz in use with the Wall Shelf.

I can not fault these Vinyl sources when I am experiencing them in use. 

My Wall Shelf is fastened to a Block Wall (maybe Cinder Block is the US Term).

I have used the not too costly fastenings in the link and can offer a reassurance that these are able to be trusted, I have put quite a few Kilo's (Granite Slabs) on my Shelve before I supporting any valuable audio devices. 

If a Block Wall is the option, the fastening search is over.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rigifix-M8-Anchor-Fixings-Pack/dp/B00D98LHLG/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=breeze+block+wall+fixings&qid=1693421494&sr=8-6

@pindac My wall shelf will be mounted to a plaster on brick wall. I will drill into the brick an fasten the appropriate anchors, readily available form the local hardware store. I have done this before. As an extra measure I also glue the anchors into the brick. I could sit on that shelf.

@dwette 

Get the app and check out how your situation is doing now. I think the app is free. When placed on the platter should be able to jump and bang around without anything registering on the platter. Wall shelfs may help with severe problems like foot fall issues but they are poor isolation otherwise. You can prove that to yourself. Get the app. it will tell you everything.

@mijostyn What app do you use (I am on iPhone)

I picked something off the app store, and vibration seems negligible to be. During normal play it says vibrations can only be detected by instruments, and if I bang on the isolation platform with the phone on the platter it says very slight vibrations felt only by some people. 

But like I said, I listen to large-scale orchestral music all the time, with large speakers and subs in a smallish room, and I can pick out plenty of inner detail.

At some point I will borrow a HRS platform from my dealer to see if it makes a difference, but for now I don't have a problem to solve, as far as I'm concerned.

@dwette ,

That app is referring to earthquakes! The one I use is labeled Seismometer. I also use an iPhone. It looks like a real seismometer. There is a needle that paints squiggles on a graph when you disturb it. If you put it down on any surface and tap you will see a sgiggle. I have it open right now and it is registering me typing. if you go to the app store and type in seismometer, "Vibration meter, seismometer" comes up. "measure all vibrations." that is the one.  

@mijostyn who's the app publisher? There's more than one fitting your description.

The one I got comes up as "Vibration Meter, seismograph": "Measure all vibrations" by ExaMobile S.A.

@dwette 

Go to yellowagents.com/seismometer

@mijostyn OK. I got that one, for a couple bucks.

If I put my iPhone on the platter and bang on the isolation platform I get tiny little blips (like small bubbles). If I bang on the rack the isolation platform sits on the tiny blips are even tinier. If I walk around there is is nothing.

As an experiment I also wedged the phone between the arm board, and the base of the tonearm, while playing the MMJ45 of Art Blakey and Jazz Messengers Mosaic. That should load the room with enough bass and dynamics. Without doing anything else the measurement is a solid straight line while the record plays: no blips at all. While I'm playing that I bang on the iosaltion platform and get tiny blips, and can kind of hear it in the bass. And banging on the rack the isolation platform sits on results in even tinier blips. No mistracking in any case.

I should try Weather Report Sweetnighter and turn it way up to see what happens.

Bottom line though is that while I'm playing a record it's not recording even the slightest vibrations that I can tell.

VPI tables have always come with a threaded (1/4-20) spindle and associated record clamp (and a 2mm thick x 1.25" diameter rubber washer to install under the LP).

Their first table (the HW-19) featured a platter that was a 1" thick slab of aluminum with a thin sheet of lead glued onto it’s underside, and covered in cork. The Mk.2/3/4 iterations of the HW-19 had a platter machined from black Delrin (often misidentified as Acrylic, even by VPI themselves), 1" thick on the Mk.2 and 3, 1.5" on the Mk.4.

All the VPI tables that have followed the HW-19 have (I believe) featured 1/4-20 threaded spindles and associated clamp, regardless of what material each table’s platter was made of.

The first VPI clamp was made entirely of Delrin, followed later by a stainless steel/Delrin combo for more money.

Black Diamond Racing---already well known for their carbon fiber shelves and "Tiptoe"-style cones---then introduced a carbon fiber record clamp with 1/4-20 threading, and it is really nice. Very dense and stiff, much more so than either VPI clamp. BDR made it in two iterations, a 1-pc and a 2-pc. Neither is still in production, but occasionally show up used for $100-$150. Well worth checking into if you like record clamps and have a spindle with 1/4-20 threading.

@dwette,

It is not all that bad but you have to remember, your cartridge is more sensitive than your phone. Ideally you should be able to tap around the turntable and jump up and down in front of it and see nothing but a straight line on the phone. Sweetnighter (one of my favorite Weather Report records) does not have very low bass in it. Play a Billy Cobham drum solo loud. Do you have subwoofers? Systems without subwoofers generally will not project much below 40 Hz. That is a full octave they are missing.

What I have will have to do for now. I'm going back to my blissful ignorance where I enjoy music and have nothing to worry about. :)

What I have will have to do for now. I'm going back to my blissful ignorance where I enjoy music and have nothing to worry about. :)

For shame! Next you'll be telling us to stop worrying and enjoy the music!