Thoughts On Turntable Clamps And Weights

I would not get too hung up on weight being a concern.

Multiple Bearings Assemblies are produced using almost identical designs, which also share identical / almost identical materials. 

These designs are seen to support in some cases Platters that have a substantial weight, and some of these platters with Substantial Weight are transferring the weight as a point loading onto a materials such as Sapphire that has a concerning fragility, especially as a material shattering is a risk that has to be calculated for.

I have a improved design bearing in use and a new design bearing to be put in place on a owned TT.

The New Design Bearing has Sapphire included for the certain roles, the Engineer who is to produce the design has made known that it is transportation of the TT, that poses the concerning risks not the typical usage. As I take equipment to other abodes or events, flagging up the concern about transportation is relevant to my own circumstances.

To be used in conjunction on a TT with the Original Bearing, Improved Bearing Design and New Design Bearing are a variety of Platters.

There is the Original Platter, a Phosphor Bronze Platter ( produced for another TT, but with a modification that makes it compatible for use on this TT), a machined replica of the Original Platter in Stainless Steel. The two non-original Platter are both close to be 3 x increased in weight over the original.

Additionally to be used are Machined Delrin Top Plates of a 20mm and 40mm thickness, which are to be mechanically fastened to all three platter types.

The friend who has the Stock Delrin and a CNC Machine is also to produce a part to be used for the extension Spindle. This might be a made from differing materials, being homogenous, as is the Platters and Delrin Top Plates. It is most likely to be used as a composite such a Panzerholz as well.

The point of interest to me is to see how the experienced individuals go through the motion to balance these assemblies.

I also use Spindle Weights where the Maximum Weight used belongs to a composite spindle weight @ 1Kg.  

These additional loadings on the differing bearing assemblies are of no concern to the Engineer who is to produce the New Bearing Design, their own historical investigations on the subject and their own trials undertaken leave them with no concerns about the weights being proposed to be added.

The above is a version of a work already pioneered by another, this is a revisit to the work already done on a different Continent. If the Mountain is not coming to Mohammed, then there is foot work to be done. 

The above is a uncommon approach, and a extension of other experiences been created, it is made known to show the OP that added weight is not to be concerned about.

More in alignment with the OP, I have used multiple Weights on Platters, I have even used a Stacked Platter.

These variants are able to impact on a sonic to the point there is a noticeable change.

I class this type of investigation as seeking out a interface that best creates a environment that is most suited to the Styli/Armature. When a optimised interface is discovered, a systems produced sound can sound quite attractive and is wanted to be maintained.   

I agree with @mulveling that weights in general can be quite subtle in how they impact on a produced sonic, but when investigating and attempting to fine tune a interface, these subtle changes can be the ones that produce the sonic that is most attractive to the end user, even if just limited to how a Bass Line is perceived to decay.

The place where there are real-world changes to be found, using my experiences, is through the exchanges of a Platter Mat.

Trying out different materials and thickness of a material can really effect the sonic. The broadening of experiences with differing materials as a platter mat can end up with there not being a ubiquitous mat for a system.

I have as a result of my investigations four 'go to' mats, that are produced from four different types of materials.

Tenuto Phosphor Bronze (Lean in Sonic),  AT-677 Duralumin ( Tint of Richness) , AT-600 Ceramic ( Perceived Richness),  5mm Forex Foam - this is a very cheap to purchase material ( competes equally with the former three mats, where the preservation of detail, dynamics and envelope are compared, it is Rich in Tone compared to all the others), Forex Foam as a 3mm thickness was a not to my liking.

Different weights in use can tweak the sonic a little when used in conjunction with the above mats, but I am most contented with the 1Kg composite weight (main weight Stainless Steel) adorning the Album.  

           

 

@jrcotner Excellent report on your early experiences.

There is more to come if you work with the Platter Mat.

@terry9 I have read your posts in the past and you show out as having a mind for the engineering side.

To get a idea of where my endeavours are going, the SP10 Thread on DIY Audio throughout the latter of last year and into this year covers a range of the platter designs to be used.

The designs for the bearing are coming from different places in Aus' and the UK, there is not as much work believed to be needed to create the measured run off's that are quite attractive.

I discovered the benefits of improving a generic type bearing design more that 20 years ago on a Garrard 401. Owned TT's since, that are in regular use, have all had a treatment in this area.

My interest in the Lenco GL 75 has enabled myself to meet quite a few who have done very successful work with this bearing type.

I am a vociferous advocate and encourager of carrying out this type of modification, meeting with a trusted support is the hurdle to be overcome.

My friend who has worked extensively on GL 75's, has gone to the extremes of having a Lenco Bearing Produced with a two part composite Spindle, Metal Spindle > Delrin Bushes in the New Machined bearing housing. The spindle to platter interface is using a material attached to the metal part of the spindle, where the material can be Natural, Thermoplastic, Metal or even a Composite.

When experiencing this in use as a Ebony Wood > Stacked Platter, the improvements was very very noticeable and quite outstanding as a functioning part when compared to other bearing modifications immediately available to try. 

This is a Spindle Mod', I am in discussion about for the alternative bearing design referred to earlier, Panzerholz would be my wood of choice. 

There is a more complicated bearing design in the making, I can't discuss it too much as it is not my work.

I have struggled to get a discussion going on a Air Bearing design. I have in my thoughts a design for one. I have to wait to see if it can be adopted into the design for this new complicated bearing design, seeing the dimensions of the New Bearing Housing and working with them, to offer the Air Bearing the optimised set up will be the challenge.                 

@terry9 Thank you for directing me toward these products.

I am looking at the Recommended Brands 13mm ID Bush Bearing. 

The Bush is looking like it will require a shaft close to 22mm ID which I assume will need to be designed to enable the potting of the part and allow for a air supply to be connected.

These are dimensions that I feel confident of being not too far from from the alternative dimensions to be selected.

I am keen to pass on the link and receive the feedback from the Engineer.

@terry9 Thank You again, the penny has completely dripped and I am a duck to water on this one.

I can not see any reason to avoid making this info known, to both of the individuals I spend time with who produce TA's and work on TT's, I see this info as something they may seriously consider adopting. There selected Bearings used on their TA's are extremely 'state of the art' and 'Rocking Horse Poo' to find a small in qty supply source. 

Such an idea as yours must surely stimulate their thoughts, as it has my own.  

I will be digesting everything I discover on this subject.

I am also to look into if a Bearing can be designed to work on a selection of owned Brands of Japanese Vintage TT's.

The Stator Bowls will be dimensioned to see where a common measurement is compatible with available New Way parts.

I like to keep the designs reversible, which means Stator Bowls may need to be produced as a increased substance, which will accommodate the original and new attached parts.

CNC producing a Permali Stator Bowl will be on the to do list, as this is a method, I have been proposing for quite some time, for the exchange of a original stator bowl. The earliest idea being the Densified Wood being a superb material to remove most energies formed and transferred from the Bowl to the Chassis.

The D'wood Bowl will be much more suitable to manage the reduction of the Motor Torque Energy and Spindle Housing energy, in a manner that is much better than a Pressed or Cast Metal is capable of. 

The design for the Bearing Housing will be much more easier to use with a Idler Drive TT, and I will be very keen to see what it does to the produced sonic. 

The Stator Bowl, is one area of a design that has been severely scrimped on.

I have witnessed the gauge for metal used for pressing/casting that is close to a range of 1/64 - 1/8.

I have done work on rigidly bracing the base of the bearing housing and have encouraged others to adopt methods to achieve the same end.

The improvements discovered are worthy of mentioning and the reports from those that have adopted this as a method are again not to be overlooked.

As I own a 3" (75mm) Thick Board of Permali, I am in a position to have the Bowl formed as a recess in the chassis, which will not be a thin flimsy add on, prone to flexion and deflection, the Stator and other parts for the drive will be directly attached to the Permali Wood, the original bowl will be redundant.

What really matters is how the new bearing housing interfaces with the Permali Bowl and how the Platter Spindle is catered for as it passes through the Bowl and Stator and other parts of the drive.

This is to be my design for the Kaneta, as an alternative to the original motor drive being bedded into a substantial chassis.

At present there are two Kaneta designs at hand, one as a thick laminated wood chassis and the other a single P'holz Board chassis.

There is at present one electronically modified TT, at hand to the used with the two mounting methods.

Another TT will need to be a donor model to produce my Permali Chassis version, where the modified electronics can be shared to have the experience of both types. 

As an aside, I was yesterday involved in what I will refer to as a healthy conversation with my Engineer friend about Air Bearings 😎, I do like the general expressed ideas being made known.

@lewm  The Engineer I use, is an individual renowned for their knowledge and their unique modification works carried out on the SP10 MkII, my own SP10 MkII is modified by this person.

I can assure you that others, that are renowned in their own Countries (yes even the US)  for their works done on Japanese Vintage TT's, have picked my engineer friends brain at some point.  

I have had many a discussion about the ideas behind the engineers practices and how the practices of others are said to impact on the SP10 MkII.

I don't believe there is much that can be done to my own TT, that will improve on it electronically, or for speed control.

The next frontier is the attempts to improve the mechanical interface for the seating of the drive gear and the Platter Spindle Bearing being a complete overhaul and not the already put in place upgrade for the assembly on  the one I have in use.

As stated previously, I am keen to learn, if the rethink for the Platter Spindle Bearing, can be one that is able to be transferred onto other Brands models, if the Stator Bowls are remade using a CNC to accommodate the new bearing housing design. 

The CNC owner has access to substantial thicknesses of Thermoplastics, and has the programming skills which can produce items to low microns as a tolerance.

Alternatively for the individual like myself, the Bowl replacement can be a simple affair to, where there is a Top Flange plate fastened to a thick walled cylinder of the ideal ID/OD, that has a base fastened to the side wall as well.    

There are now a few posts from different members, where the members are making it known a 1Kg as the added Spindle Weight is their selected choice. Seemingly the additional weight at this capacity, creates the presentation that is noticeably being an improvement for the produced sonic. 

If a individual has a means to trial a weight of approx' 1Kg and feels confident a temporary usage of such a weight will not impact on their TT Set Up.

It is a weight well worth considering, as in my own situation, my TT's presentation when becoming sound, gathers and is much more of a attraction when the 1Kg is in use as a comparison to 'no weight' and the selection of 'other weights' I have at hand.

As stated before my 1Kg Weight is a composite, it is a DIY assembly (main proportion of weight is Stainless Steel) and I assume others reporting on a 1Kg Spindle weight are a single type material, metal, wood, stone? 

  

@dwette Thank You for confirming your Weight Type.

It looks like a Composite Weight produced with the main proportion being SS, with a weight of approx' 1Kg has a few advocates.

My assumptions once more, are not as correct as I had suggested 😉.

First hand experience is always the best way to gather info to present a evaluation or report on an encounter.

@dwette We are now having a cross over of our thoughts on this subject.

Firstly I can’t use a Rubber Material with Vinyl for extended periods, it is usually only in use for a demo’ purpose only.

I am a advocate of Densified Wood, of which one Brand of this material type is Panzerholz.

Clearaudio are quite involved in producing designs where Panzerholz is seen as a material of importance, I suspect there will be a Spindle Weight available with Panzerholz in place of Ebony at some point.

I have been demo’d a DIY Panzerholz Spindle Weight and have been impressed with it when used in comparison to other materials used for weights on a PTP Solid Nine TT.

The PTP was used as the TT, when a group of seven HiFi Group Members had a meeting where a Mat and Weight comparison was being demo’d, with differing materials being tried in conjunction with each other.

My next port of call, when the Vinyl Source is back in daily use, is to have my SS weight modified and produced as a SS composite with Densified Wood, I have enough of a good experience with both these materials to suspect the marriage will be a long lasting one.

@dwette I have worked with Plinth Materials for a long time(since the 90's).

I have evolved from Mass, leaving behind Granite Monolith type structures for a lighter material. 

This endeavour has enabled myself to try out different materials as well as meet with others and receive demo's of their versions of a Plinth.

As a result I have been able to experience in use different Stone Types (inclusive of resin formed composites), Wood Based Types and in Two experiences where a Lead Composite and Solid Aluminium Metal is the Plinth. 

On my preferred TT Model using the same Tonearm > Headshell > Cartridge > Mounting Rack > Audio System, the following has taken place.

I have been comparison demo'd a variety of Plinths produced from what was my most preferred material for many years, ( a highly compressed polyurethane foam @ 700Kg per m3) > (Birch Plywood @ 700Kg per m3) > ( MU 25 Beech Plywood - Non Resin Impregnated Compressed Board @ 900Kg m3) > (Panzerholz B25 - Phenolic Resin Impregnated Beech Plywood @ 1400Kg m3)

Each material in use is able to create a variant to the sonic being produced.

I own the MU25 and this was the first in use, it was not showing too much to be considered as a detraction.

The Birch Plywood followed and was instantly and noticeably unattractive in comparison to the MU25. It was easily deselected for further use, the owner of the Birch Plywood Plinth was quite astonished at how he was feeling sure the Plywood Plinth was a good material choice.

The Compressed Foam in comparison to the MU25 proved to be similarly voiced, , I was of the the view, the Foam was the more attractive material.

The owner of the Panzerholz Plinth was very familiar with MU25 as a Plinth Material as well, due to their past usage of the material.

Once having experienced the Panzerholz there was no further wanting to return to comparing any of the other materials.

The two non-P'holz Plinth Owners at this demo', of which I was one, are now owners of P'holz Plinths. The impact the material has had, has resulted, that it cost myself and the other individual £1000 to get a Board of P'holz into our possession to have a our Plinths Produced and have other options.

As a side: Linn's latest announcement for a TT, is making it known they are now to be using a Resin Impregnated Densified Wood.      

 

@dwette As I have Plinth Size Boards, I have loaned a assembly of a Sub-Plinth / Sub Sub-Plinths with AT-616 Isolation footers.

This assembly has been used in a variety of systems for both Vinyl and CD Source and Valve Power Amp's. There has been enough discoveries made to strongly suggest this method is most ubiquitous I have encountered for producing effects on a sonic that are a improved attraction in a range of environments.

The Two owners of the P'holz Plinths referred to in the earlier post are both using P'holz Sub-Plinths in conjunction with their P'holz Plinths.

I made a offer to a Clearaudio TT owner to enable them to receive a free Permali Board Sample of a Sub-Plinth Dimension, this was not followed up on.

I believe the same sample offer may have now been taken up by a Garrard 401 owner.

If the Sub-Plinth was to be supplied by Taiko Audio, their remuneration for a daiza plinth would be close to £1000

 https://taikoaudio.com/taiko-2020/daiza-isolation-platform/?v=79cba1185463     

As an individual who has trialled a range of materials as a Support and assembled these materials into various configurations of a Structure to support equipment, I can only encourage others to try out their own investigations.

I have not and do not intend on trying out a Isolation Platform from a Brand that comes with multiple $K's to be parted with for the experience to be had.

My journey has already got me to a place that I am very content with, at present I am not in the ball park of multi $K's spent and with the upcoming inclusion of a Board to be used as a Sub Plinth produced from a Resin Impregnated Densified Wood, even though carrying a increased cost than usually met, I have witnessed enough from the use of this material to be able to see this as my journey's end.       

@dwette I am using a Wall Shelf, but not for my Vinyl Source, it is used for a CDT and Valve DAC.

I am aware how the Vinyl Source works on a Wall Shelf with different methods of supporting the Sub Platform and have remained with a construction for a support I have developed over quite a period of time.

There are friends I visit who have their set ups on a Wall Shelf and a few have the P'holz in use with the Wall Shelf.

I can not fault these Vinyl sources when I am experiencing them in use. 

My Wall Shelf is fastened to a Block Wall (maybe Cinder Block is the US Term).

I have used the not too costly fastenings in the link and can offer a reassurance that these are able to be trusted, I have put quite a few Kilo's (Granite Slabs) on my Shelve before I supporting any valuable audio devices. 

If a Block Wall is the option, the fastening search is over.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rigifix-M8-Anchor-Fixings-Pack/dp/B00D98LHLG/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=breeze+block+wall+fixings&qid=1693421494&sr=8-6