Like many/most here, one of the main reasons I frequent audiogon is to gather information. I am looking for ways to enhance the enjoyment I get from listening to music on my system. The information most valuable to me comes from those who share their actual experience with products that I am interested in, but have not heard in my system.
The audio community is a diverse one, with many opinions, ideas and perspectives. Many of them differ from mine, and that is fine. Those who disagree with me are free to make posts and start threads about whatever they choose. This doesn’t bother me, I am free to choose what I read, and what I don’t.
What does rile me up up is deliberate attempts to deny me (and others) access to the information that I value. There are some here who repeatedly seek to disrupt, sidetrack, derail, and shut down conversations about topics and products that trigger them. They do not contribute any useful information or experience to the discussion, and make disparaging comments about things they have zero experience with. They are bullies who mock, ridicule and provoke those who use, make and sell certain products. They seek to stifle any discussions about, and especially positive opinions of, the products and people they clearly have a vendetta against.
They can start their own threads, and talk about what a fool I am all day long, I don’t care. Their deliberate and repeated attempts to deny myself and others access to the information we value, however, are intolerable.
When @ozzyposted that he was considering taking his own post down I amongst a couple of others posted the following to @ozzy in response to @thynameurging him to nuke his own thread …
“ I see no reason for you to take your thread down.
It is your thread in which you are writing about your subjective experiences with this product thereby opening up a debate upon said product.
However we live in a democratic society, as is this forum … ergo is it realistic to expect that every respondent will be favourably minded toward an unexplained product with properties unknown to science, and only expect enthusiastic comment from the membership as a whole?
Que the “ Why are you in this thread weenering posts “
Well … Its a Democracy , and those folks are entitled to post their opinion without being ganged up on by the usual * How Very Dare You* cabal ( yes you know who you are 😉)
I hope that you keep your thread up and running and post your own considerations regardless.”
When informative threads get deleted then that denies me information…….A'gon can do whatever they want but those deleted threads are a pet peeve of mine.
there was a totally uncontroversial and informative thread on a Supratek preamp that got taken down for no apparent reason, to the extent that it raises suspicions as to whether a competitor is able to have threads removed to gain commercial advantage.
My thread about the prototype discs was taken down. I tried to renew it or get an explanation but received nothing. Way too much control of speech. I will be looking for other sites to visit.
when I proposed that debate be use as a mode of expression rather than censorship, citing a previous instance where the thread had been taken down, guess who made negative noise?
clue: it wasn‘t the measurement crew - funny isn‘t it seeing the outcome ? - pity you can‘t go see for yourself..
Only if both following conditions are met for said product:
1) You have measurements as well as blind test results certified by a third party to back up your experience. Otherwise you are just hallucinating (placebo, gullibility, and such) or outright shilling
2) It’s very cheap. Preferably free. Otherwise, you are a phool to pay so much money for something other than something else that can measure just as good and is much cheaper.
Only then you can share any experiences. 😜😬
You know: nobody is interested in your experiences. I request and demand PROOF! 😫🙄😡😤🤬😠😖
No one can possibly tell you whether/how your system, room and/or ears will respond to some new addition. There are simply too many variables.
LIKEWISE: no one can possibly know whether a new addition (ie: some kind of disc, crystal, fuse, interconnect, cable, etc) will make a difference, in their system and room, with their media and to their ears, without actually TRYING them for themselves.
Some companies offer a 30 Day Satisfaction Guarantee, so- those that are actually interested, have absolutely nothing to lose, by trying (experimenting with) such.
Anyone that knows anything about the sciences, realizes that something like 96% of what makes up this universe, remains a mystery.
For centuries; humanity’s seen, heard, felt and otherwise witnessed phenomena, that none of the best minds could explain, UNTIL they developed a science or measurement, that could explain it.
The Naysayer Church wants you to trust their antiquated science (1800’s electrical theory) and faith-based, religious doctrine, BLINDLY ("Trust ME!").
Theories have never proven or disproven anything. It’s INVARIABLY testing and experimentation that proves or disproves theories/hypotheses.
IF you’re interested in the possibility of improving your system’s presentation, have a shred of confidence in your capacity for perceiving reality and trust your own senses: actually TRY whatever whets your aural appetite, FOR YOURSELF.
The Naysayer Church HATES it, when THAT happens!
btw: tommylion= +1 (overall)
@rodman99999really?
Who is making it some kind of competition?
And back to the 1800s, I do not believe that we had amplifiers, nor phono amps. It is not like engineers that design these things since the mid 1900s were using incantations and Magic spells.
It is about the farthest thing from a church, on the naysayer side. It is more like a church on the “trust me” side.
I am not against the idea of some of the stuff working, but when the manufacturer cannot explain how they work, then it gets a bit hard to abide taking a chance on.
Similarly when the cables have no specs, it get difficult to want to try them.
If you want to donate to their cause, no one is stopping you. I’d rather spend on hardware.
With a little bit of digging there exists more than sufficient measurements and certifications (if necessary) available about cables and fuses from responsible and reputable manufacturers.
All in about one or two lines of information.
Problem is that they don’t cost anywhere near enough. That surely can’t be right, can it?
Yeah @noskewhen there are no specs I get hairs on my neck twitching.
Even a 25 cent fuse meets spec, but the SR ones, have not UL rating, and teh snake oil cables are also cloaked in a lack of specs.
I think it is pretty obvious our educational system is not working.
I’ve been hanging around this site, for 12 years now, as well as staying abreast of the debates, between the most esteemed theorists of various scientific fields of endeavor, for several decades.
Regardless of the scientific facts that have been established, through experimentation, improved measurement methods and testing, over those decades; some (Classical) Physicists still want the universe to make sense.
But (largely): it doesn’t.
SO (likewise): the same brand of convoluted, stale arguments and you’re absolutely correct:
This is one popular topic that never fails to get old as it’s always popping up and never, ever resolved.
You guys knock me out. @rodman99999, @tommylionYou both need a little less mystery and a little more reality in your lives. So, Tommy you hand me a picture of a Grayhound bus and tell me you can't wait to fly down to Florida on it. I look at you crossways and comment, "I hate to tell you this but buses do not fly" You then try to convince me that I am FOS because I have never flown one. This is exactly how stupid both of you sound. When you have absolutely know idea what is going on you have the license to come up with any story you can imagine and call it truth?
I think it is pretty obvious our educational system is not working.
@thyname… Accusing others of making incendiary comments when you yourself openly admit that you practice exactly what you accuse others of … thereby contributing directly to the Admin taking threads down …
About users with hidden agendas
^^^^^ Meant to say don't read or especially reply to fuel their venom. Yup! Toxic! I do have a thing though for fueling their venom 😂🤗
'Oh what a tangled web you weave , When first you practice to deceive'
When informative threads get deleted then that denies me information. I come across this often where I search for something I am interested in. The search results on A'gon show varies threads. You click on some posts and then they are blocked because the thread has been deleted.
A'gon can do whatever they want but those deleted threads are a pet peeve of mine.
One time Grannyring posted how much he modified the double impact, I did enjoy reading it. The post is too long or the thread, I never get tired reading it.
Waltersalas is onother one who has a class act , very knowledgeable as well, very good system., Charlesdad is onother one who has class act and very knowledgeable.
The problem I see here most OP questions are not answer properly, instead they will recommend other products.Then it get hijacked, During the time of Mike Lavigne , Albertporter, Jademo posting here it was fun , they are very knowledgeable, and they have state of the art system and yet they are so humble to share. The
The Church of the Naysayer Doctrine (like every other faith-based, religious cult) has as many dopes as it does Popes.
Bring up anything resembling SCIENCE/PHYSICS, dated later than the 1800’s and they become apoplectic, not having the formal education to comprehend the concepts, or- possible ramifications. THAT would be hilarious, were it not so pathetic!
Gimme That Old Time Religion, Gimme That Old Time Religion, etc.
Whenever it comes to the thorny issue of money exchange there will always be those that will seek to deny access to information that they feel might not be in their best economic interests.
These last 2 years have amply demonstrated this time and time again.
Entire governments worldwide have gotten caught up in the spreading of misinformation and the denial of other certain other information that you would have thought it was their duty to provide.
As a home PC user since 2004 (Windows, unfortunately) I have noticed that whilst there is a seemingly endless amount of products you can buy to help you with your experience of using a PC ranging from antivirus, software and maintenance and repair utilities, there is an almost corresponding silence when it comes to the promotion of free open source software.
Some of which is simply brilliant.
It’s almost criminal that so much good and valuable hard work by so many gets so little credit.
Even some essential free Microsoft products such as checkdisk (CHDSK) system file checker (SFC) and deployment Image Servicing (DISM) and Management get very little publicity online compared to the paid for programs.
No one can possibly tell you whether/how your system, room and/or ears will respond to some new addition. There are simply too many variables.
LIKEWISE: no one can possibly know whether a new addition (ie: some kind of disc, crystal, fuse, interconnect, cable, etc) will make a difference, in their system and room, with their media and to their ears, without actually TRYING them for themselves.
Some companies offer a 30 Day Satisfaction Guarantee, so- those that are actually interested, have absolutely nothing to lose, by trying (experimenting with) such.
Anyone that knows anything about the sciences, realizes that something like 96% of what makes up this universe, remains a mystery.
For centuries; humanity’s seen, heard, felt and otherwise witnessed phenomena, that none of the best minds could explain, UNTIL they developed a science or measurement, that could explain it.
The Naysayer Church wants you to trust their antiquated science (1800’s electrical theory) and faith-based, religious doctrine, BLINDLY ("Trust ME!").
Theories have never proven or disproven anything. It’s INVARIABLY testing and experimentation that proves or disproves theories/hypotheses.
IF you’re interested in the possibility of improving your system’s presentation, have a shred of confidence in your capacity for perceiving reality and trust your own senses: actually TRY whatever whets your aural appetite, FOR YOURSELF.
“Exactly how does anyone on this site "deny access to information" to another poster?”
How does cancel culture work? By incessantly making provocative posts on threads that express opinions they disagree with, in order to stir up controversy and disrupt or get them shut down. By creating a toxic environment in which others are reluctant to share experiences and express opinions they disapprove of. They do this under the guise of merely expressing their own opinion.
@larry5729I think it would be helpful if Audiogon identified members as vendors/retailers beside their name.
This is unnecessary and anyway would be a tremendous burden on AG.
I just take it as a presumption that anyone and everyone who provides some testimonial (or who objects to any criticism) has some financial interest in promoting the tweak or tweaks in general..
Presumptions may be rebutted by context or by the person demonstrating some meaningful technical knowledge of the product other than what colour it is, that it is a game changer and the terms of sale.
BTW I am not anti-tweak. My system is highly "tweaked" to get it to sound the way it does. Lots of sweat over the years and a significant $$$ investment. Just don’t beat me over the head if I am not on the same page as another on any specific topic. I will share what I can if I think relevant and move on, but not beat people over the head about it.
I think it would be helpful if Audiogon identified members as vendors/retailers beside their name. It would make sense so those of us who are consumers know where there might be bias so retailers can use this platform to sell things.
This is very funny! That does not prevent you one bit from posting non-stop for things you never heard.
I suppose that it does sound more farcical when I echo those words back.
Are you sure? Please define "factual post". Does sharing one’s experience of owning and using a product count? Also, nobody is here to convince you or anybody on anything. I for one couldn’t care less about convincing you.
You seem to care, as you go on non-stop on my cables.
An opinion is not a fact. It is maybe an alternate truth, or something… It is basically just a story.
When people attack others for challenging essentially vacant products, my shill alarm goes off. Vacant meaning very limited information available other than the advertised effect on the sound. These products can’t stand on their own so they need people stationed here to defend at all costs and the only ammo the defenders have to do that is they say it sounds good, you know nothing if you do not buy and try, and generally trying to bully others into submission. In some cases if you try and do not hear the benefits they will then attack your hearing ability or system. Happens over and over and very disgusting over time. Just part of being here. Tweak products generate lots of transactions I’m sure and are advertised all over the place here which is fine because it is a business first and forum second. Just be aware. The tweak defenders want to silence you. They can't just state their case and move on like is the norm.
@holmzIf we can get one factual post or measurement with a cable or fuse
With a little bit of digging there exists more than sufficient measurements and certifications (if necessary) available about cables and fuses from responsible and reputable manufacturers.
All in about one or two lines of information.
Problem is that they don’t cost anywhere near enough. That surely can’t be right, can it?
What does rile me up up is deliberate attempts to deny me (and others) access to the information that I value. There are some here who repeatedly seek to disrupt, sidetrack, derail, and shut down conversations about topics and products that trigger them.
I have to agree with you. I have seen a discussion where the OP asked about a certain product, and a few posters sidelined that product and started discussions on a totally different product. Sad situation.
But I don't think anyone denies to provide information - in fact of late they provide over information - which might be completely irrelevant to the original post. I think based on this alone, someone started another thread that started doubting if people have "agenda" when they make posts or start a thread. It's an open forum and things are bound to happen. If the posts stay relevant, then that would be the best approach.
You should only comment on what you have personally heard
This is very funny! That does not prevent you one bit from posting non-stop for things you never heard.
If we can get one factual post or measurement with a cable or fuse, that would do a lot more to convince me
Are you sure? Please define "factual post". Does sharing one’s experience of owning and using a product count? Also, nobody is here to convince you or anybody on anything. I for one couldn’t care less about convincing you.
I think all forums have their way of getting under ones skin. I used to frequent the PS Audio forums and it too used to be much more informative then what it is now...
There seems to be a obsession with the members of worshiping this guy named Al who has a few rabbits as pets... and hisconstant reminder to all of just how much money he can throw/spend on this hobby. Its to the point now that any interest in that forum would only be to the benefit of boosting poor Al’s ego... for some sort of imagined brownie point system. Sickening really...
For a person that has a “god inspired” moniker of a user name, you do not convey the loving side that we often hear about.
I think “audio-gone” describes things when there is little audio talk, and mostly it is your vexation with wires, vexation with who is given a timeout, etc.
(It’s just about every gossip piece, and little that is audio related.)
I am not sure you are experienced to speak on lamp cord if you have not used the product? You should only comment on what you have personally heard.
If we can get one factual post or measurement with a cable or fuse, that would do a lot more to convince me than a hundred people spruiking the latest thing that appears like it could be complete none-sense.
If you @thynamehave a short attention span I can highlight the parts of the OP’s post for you to pay attention to:
Like many/most here, one of the main reasons I frequent audiogon is to gather information. I am looking for ways to enhance the enjoyment I get from listening to music on my system. The information most valuable to me comes from those who share their actual experience with products that I am interested in, but have not heard in my system.
The audio community is a diverse one, with many opinions, ideas and perspectives. Many of them differ from mine, and that is fine. Those who disagree with me are free to make posts and start threads about whatever they choose. This doesn’t bother me, I am free to choose what I read, and what I don’t.
What does rile me up up is deliberate attempts to deny me (and others) access to the information that I value. There are some here who repeatedly seek to disrupt, sidetrack, derail, and shut down conversations about topics and products that trigger them. They do not contribute any useful information or experience to the discussion, and make disparaging comments about things they have zero experience with. They are bullies who mock, ridicule and provoke those who use, make and sell certain products. They seek to stifle any discussions about, and especially positive opinions of, the products and people they clearly have a vendetta against.
They can start their own threads, and talk about what a fool I am all day long, I don’t care. Their deliberate and repeated attempts to deny myself and others access to the information we value, however, are intolerable.
I honestly did not see the point of the OP’s post, but you‘ve done a good job of assisting me on the derailing side.
And you call "ridiculed" me calling you Dow Jones? I did not realize that. I thought you liked it. Remember when we discussed the stock market and the Dow Jones Industrials going through the roof? If you were offended, I won't call you that again. And I apologize (unless you like it?)
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