Neat article. I see why my 14 gauge speaker cables sound better than my older 16 gauge cables from the same maker. I wish I could afford the 12 gauge version.
All the best,
Nonoise
All the best,
Nonoise
Thinking out of the box here. It might make some defensive
I was thinking, that all the different wire constructions and purities is pointless if they are tied to a connecter. How can the signal carry the purist signal when it has to be compromised by the mercy of a connecter. Why not make a solid wire out of the connecter and use the bare wire for the connecter? Same end result. I’m not an engineer but it seems to me it would sound the same. Right? The end product is only as good as its weakest link. I’m beginning to think speaker cables are too over rated . I switched out my $1500 cables for some 10 gauge $20 copper wire with bare ends and I will say if there was any difference it was slight. I do know my amp doesn’t clip like it used too. And music is louder and more dynamic. I tried some 12 gauge and couldn’t tell any difference from the 10. And yes all the cable lengths were 8 foot. If you want the purist signal then you would have to take the wire and run it right through the speaker and bypass the terminals. So my question to the electrical educated members here is how can the signal arrive intact if it has to be transmitted through a connecter and then to the speaker terminals. It makes me think speaker wire is not all that important. I’m just saying. I don’t mean to be starting a war here.
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How about discussion from a scientist? https://www.stereophile.com/content/lindsay-geyer-highly-magnetic-cables |
Just imagine the effort to eliminate vibration from wire…a silly endeavor that some enjoy and/or profit from, and seems obviated by the items like crossovers, connectors, and wire inside your speakers. A vibration nightmare...The trauma occurring in my powered subs has to keep the paranoid anti-vibration maven up at night…and don't even mention "combo" (speaker and amp in one box) guitar amps…horrifying! |
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As has been mentioned, connectors do not share the same characteristics as speaker cables or interconnects. As long as there is a secure and clean connection, wither using quality spades or pins or just direct connect with the cable, IMO and experience that there is no good or ill affects of the connection/connectors, as related to the sonic qualities of of the cables or components. Over the past 40 some years as an audio enthusiast, even though I'm not a snake oil kind of guy, I've come to the conclusion that there is a difference in both speaker cables and interconnects and it's not necessarily a matter of biggest or most expensive, but the ones that are most sonicly invisible in your particular system and imparts the least amount of their own personality or coloration into your system. In this new age, where everything is going wireless, maybe the best cable is no cable.....Jim |
Fascinating discussion. Ponderings: Some posts suggest that their may be benefits to soldering your speaker wires directly to the crossovers in a speaker and avoiding the influence of the mechanical connection between speaker cable to the binding post. (The same exact logic should concern audiophiles at the amplifier end, off the PC board to the binding post on the amplifier face) What is shocking to me is how many people say that "its a hassle" because they change cables often enough to make it problematic. And yet..... You can't throw a stone in here without hitting posts that describe the huge efforts that need to be expended on speaker placement, room treatment, turntable set up, (plus many more topics) and all are items that "must be done" if you expect to get the most out of your system, and make audible and significant differences. Seems that some kind of work is ok, and needed, but not other types? Or, are some people more closed minded than they want to admit? It is not a silly discussion at all. From a technical aspect, the people that maintain you can hear significant differences between cables really have to admit that the material be it metal, wire, or solder between the crossover and the speaker wire likewise HAS to have an affect on the signal. Can everyone hear it? Probably not. Is everyone willing to experiment and take the time to SEE if they can here it? Probably not. Can you measure it? Probably not. Doesn't mean the difference isn't there for some people. I'm reminded of my favorite story about situations like this: A new Rabbi is confronted by leaders of two factions from his congregation. The first says... Rabbi, confirm for me that the tradition is to sit during the Shmah. (a prayer). The second says, Rabbi, confirm for me that the tradition is to stand during the Shmah. The Rabbi is unsure what to do. He has seen it both ways, and wants to please ALL the congregation. He suggests they visit not the newly retired old Rabbi, but the oldest surviving Rabbi... still hanging on at the nursing home, and still of clear mind. They all go there, and crowd in the room. They ask him: Is it the tradition to stand? "No" They ask him: Is it the tradition to Sit? "No" The young Rabbi out of exasperation starts up.... "But Rabbi, for years we have been arguing, bickering taking sides and..... The old Rabbi brightens up, and exclaims loudly.... "YES" THAT is the tradition.......... |
This all just reinforces my decision to completely eliminate all cables and power cords and connectors. It’s called distortion avoidance. No more speakers cables, no more interconnects, no more house AC, no more Ground, no more power cords, no more digital cable, no more connectors. No more teacher’s dirty looks. 👀 And running low power completely avoids noise and distortion from large capacitors, AC ground issues, transformers and fuses since there, uh, aren’t any. You have to die and be reborn. What’s it sound like? Like heaven. Big things have small beginnings. There’s no substitute for signal to noise ratio. |
I just want thank you all for the funniest posts on audio let alone cables I’ve read! I’ve gone to church and transcended reality, a big thank you for my happy moment. Oh I use TimePortal cables as much as possible. I’m so into EMI/RFI control and am very happy with my gold plated terminals and the results. Bring on the music. |
@kosst_amojan Actually 2 I know of. The company your thinking of is Onda, which is now closed, I own 2 pairs of their Rush interconnects. The other company, which pioneered the idea is PSC out of Australia Super expensive at 55K for a 2 meter pair. A connection free conductor sounds superb, I am surprised more high end manufacturers do not take this approach. |
blueranger posted... "My point is why pay for all the fancy wire when in the end the signal has to pass through a connecter and then a speaker terminal. Any perceived advantage of pure exotic copper or intricate twisting of the wire or insulators is a total waste." Check out Enklein Cables especially the David, but hang on to your wallet. |
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Another man answered an ad for a music school. He was told that practice, or even holding an instrument, was unnecessary; all that was required was meditating upon the inner nature of the instrument. Surprised by this, the prospective student quoted results from the neurophysiology of learning. He was told that science was a poor way to understand the world, and that the school was for those who had transcended reality. |
@blueranger You write, "I was thinking, that all the different wire constructions and purities is pointless if they are tied to a connecter." BINGO!! Now for the extra distance, I suggest, "I was thinking, that all the different wire constructions and purities is pointless if they are tied to a component with inferior internal wire." |
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Still, IMHO the wire itself is important. Take for example a 9999 soft annealed silver wire and compare that to a copper wire. There is a HUGE amount of difference in sound quality! Then perhaps try the new Cerious Technologies Matrix cables and compare them to $20 copper wire. (This cable contains silver/ copper, graphene, carbon fiber and ceramic). Much of the wire design combats rf/emi. You would be able to tell the difference in sound quality right away. And I agree connectors are important and their elimination would be great except as noted already in this thread it would make for a cumbersome set up. ozzy |
"I have never owned expensive cable, but both myself and other electrical engineers believe that cable type/gauge/weave is pretty insignificant." I have never bought a taco anywhere else but Taco Bell. Based on my review of the ingredient list from other restaurants, none of them will taste different, so I am sticking with Taco Bell. |
It all comes down to Signal to Noise + Distortion Ratio. This is where conductivity and purity of metals, noise (RFI/EMI/magnetic field/static electric field) rejection, anti vibration, wire directionality, minimizing losses at electrical contacts, things of that nature, come into play. I’m surprised electrical engineers don’t grasp that. Aerospace Engineers sure do. 🚀 🤡 |
no doubt other variables come into play when making a change in a system, though I doubt my Birthday comes into play. thats why a reasonable person makes a change one at a time and lives with the results for a period of time to assess it under varying conditions. So: speaker wire changes made a great improvement in my system. Under months of observation. Oh and they burned in over time.... yes the sound changes as manufacturing stresses and materials such as dielectrics settle down. Preconcieved denials will prevent hearing these things I suppose, but the observations of so many audiophiles over so many years cannot be ignored. My father is a respected electrical engineer, odd how he disagrees so vehemently with those who look only to one or two electrical parameters to describe such complex interactions. |
I have never owned expensive cable, but both myself and other electrical engineers believe that cable type/gauge/weave is pretty insignificant. Unless your cable runs are over 5 yards / meters, you can use anything - as ling as it isn't coax. Avoid wrapping cables around thing or coiling it so to avoid inductance, capacitance and other unwanted effects |
@elizabeth , For connectivity's sake I just soldered a "pigtail", a short length of the same wire of about 4 or 5 inches out of the back of my amp. This is what allows me to change things around with speaker wire. The actual connection is made with simple wire nuts...wire to wire. The connection still has to be cleaned once a year or so, but sounds way better to me than run-of-the-mill connectors |
Blueranger, You're not asking if there is a difference between cables, but you assumed there is none and made plausible sounding explanation for that. Now you're seeking confirmation from the others like you. This is as far from open mind as it gets. When you believe, based on some strange presumption about connectors, that there cannot be a difference then you won't hear the difference. I would call it a "Negative Placebo Effect". As for my open mind - When I cannot hear the difference between cables I say it, but I would never say there is no difference. There are people who have much better hearing (including musicians) and people who have much better more resolving systems. It would be arogant on my side to tell them what they can or cannot hear. |
Iwal22. Was that 2nd session at the same time of the week as the first one? Power to the home fluctuates in its quality as most agree on. Was the people’s mood in the 2nd session happy? Like the celebration of a birthday? Job promotion? Birth of a grand daughter etc. Just saying our preceptions of events is influenced by our state of mind or by intentionally altering it. Also just taking the cables off and putting another on can disapate a static charge. Changing cables can also clean the contacts. Also was the temperature and humidity in the room the same? I find that alone has a dramatic effect on the sound. Time and time again every season I always find music sounds better in the winter with the humidifier running. Oh but some people think my hearing isn’t too good. Yes I’m biased against the expensive speaker cables that I took out. So tell me about a good speaker wire with bare endsthat won’t cost a lot and I might try it but they must have a return policy. |
I have only used 16awg and 12awg OFC copper bought at AUD$2.00 off the reel and bare wired it to amp and speakers. To my ears, my system sounds wonderful, clear piano keys tinkle, beautiful clear sopranos, grunge reverb guitar, and all the detail one can expect from a live recording. My system isn't worth $5000, but by gum it sounds good. Snake oil ultra expensive wire is for those who want to show everyone that they are an "audiophile". I challenge anyone to replace my wire and make my system sound better... |
Well...I’m missing half a thumb... none the less when I went from a basic stranded cable to a relatively inexpensive AQ type 4, well run-in. Every listener heard a substantial improvement. I wonder how it is we keep debating observable changes because we don’t have the abililty to quantify them in theoretical terms. It seems that the lack is in the science not the nature it attempts to describe. Just felt like I’d like to liven things up in an age old controversy. Oh oh here’s another beaten path... went to a double run in basic biwire configuration. Again each listener, even my thoroughly uninterested other half, remarked on excellent improvement in clarity and smoothness. And I’d told no one there’d been a change. So: in conclusion- it woiks fah me. No ..I don’t have anything to measure it with but ears. Does that mean it’s not real? |
Due to some overlooked factors that oft arise, comparing cables is fraught with difficulties. For one thing when people switch cables they destroy the subtle mechanical electrical interface of the connectors that takes time to reestablish itself, I don’t know - a few days? Also, many times cables are not broken in when evaluated. Thus, most cable comparisons are invalid. They can all sort of sound the same. It’s not that easy to generalize about cables for other reasons too. Like how many thumbs the tester has, etc. |
As was brought up before, some of us would not be well served by wiring directly. I have two amps that I swap in and out on a regular basis, so I have two identical sets of 12 gauge solid silver in Teflon tubing, with Furutech locking terminals. The connectors had to be used as speaker terminals don't have holes for bare wire connecting. The sound? In one word, stunning, to me, and any visitors. Too much emphasis is put on cabling and the hype that goes along with it. Once you get a good sounding system, just forget about cables and enjoy your system and the music. Dan |
