Thiel Owners

@solobone22 they have a black silver weave pattern.  They're pretty old, the color has probably changed.  

@jon_5912 Do your AQ cables have a burgandy jacket?  I have a pair of (I think AQ 4) cables that work great with 2.7's.  Simple no-fluff cables.

I've been driving my 3.7s with a pair of bridged mono Cambridge 840W's for a long time.  I think they're great.  I thought they were clearly better than the pair of Classe CA200's they replaced.  They've been in my system for close to 10 years now with no problems.  The front-end is a $600 Sony 4k blu ray player feeding a benchmark dac2 with Bryston bp26 preamp.  I run inexpensive balanced interconnects.  Possibly blue jeans or mogami gold, I've got a pair of unbranded interconnects I paid $100 for that might be in there and maybe some lower tier Audioquest.  Speaker cables are very short Audioquest type 4 I think.  I never ever feel the need to upgrade.  This is my low/moderate volume system so I don't push it volume wise.  It excels at unamplified music played at moderate volumes.  It can play reasonably loudly but if I wanna rock I listen to my other system that is better suited to it.

^Does the Class A drop, maintain or increase as impedance load is lowered?

@tomthiel 

I want to modify yesterday's statement about the deep bass performance of the AHB-2. The more I listen the more I like it, and my in-room sound pressure measurements suggest that the bass amp is weaker. Therefore my call to Benchmark regarding gain; and here's hoping they can be matched. Then, of course, funds would have to be found.

I am finding the same thing with the AHB2. With some music it really sounds great. I was about to post an ad to sell my AHB2 to fund part of the cost of buying the Coda #8 (not sure V1, V2, or V3). If I sell the AHB2 I could get the Coda at the end of this month. However, I could not pull the trigger to sell the AHB2, it is too good. Unfortunately not good all the time with the CS3.7. I will keep the AHB2 around when I want to hear that clean all Benchmark sound and also get the Coda #8. 

The Coda #8 specs are as follows (8 Ohms | 4 Ohms | 2 Ohms):

• V1 150 watts w/18 watts pure class A  (150 | 300 | 600)
• V2 250 watts w/12 watts pure class A  (250 | 500 | 1000)
• V3 350 watts w/8 watts pure class A    (350 | 700 | 1400)

$6K MSRP

I am trying to decided which version to get for my small room.

@tomthiel, I would imagine that with the extreme overlap of the first order cross-overs that when multi-amping there would be significant advantages in using identical amps.

A friend of mine drove his 3.7s with a Audio Research Ref 110 tube amp. Sounded wonderful. He decided to sell it and downsize and now the Ref 110 is driving my 2.7 with no issues at all. Best amp I have owned. The Ref 150 is supposed to have a better power supply which would have better woofer control. Whatever amp you choose look at the power supply specs. It isn’t always about the WPC.

@vaankuil Aesthetix pre-power is beautiful with CS 3.7s, i have heard that combo with 3.7s.
Possible to find used.

I really appreciate amps with clipping indicators, since there are so many variables of room, level and loudness preference - it's hard to predict amplifier power need; except that more is better, but usually at the cost of sonic finesse.

Rules - to your question of other benefits the answer is YES. I am working with older models of moderate (88dB/2.83volts range) with somewhat higher impedances (6ohm nominal). Let's say my amps are beefy enough to hear no clipping and to see little if any clip LEDs.

When using an amp for each driver, there is an unmistakable sense of ease and transparacy. Returning to the stock speaker with 1 amp imparts a hard edge, especially with loud, complex material. I love the tri-amp configuration, but that multiplies the cost of amplification.

A feasible solution would be to use amps available on the used market. A primary problem is gain-matching the amps. I am running the mids and tweeters in vertical bi-amp mode where each driver is driven by a channel of a stereo amp. Assume a matching amp for the other channel and there are no problems (after you get a splitter to send your preamp line out to both amp channels.) Now, the beefier woofer amp must be gain-matched to the smaller stereo amp. I am sending my source signal to two parallel chains, each having a preamp with volume control for manual level matching. But that's not a real world solution.
I am consulting John Siau regarding gain matching of the AHB-2 in stereo and mono. I am not certain that the levels are matched between stereo and mono. I'll report when I learn more next week. In my dreams I imagine 4 AHB-2s with each channel having a stereo amp for the mid and tweeter and a bridged mono amp for the woofer, which also controls the subwoofer.

I want to modify yesterday's statement about the deep bass performance of the AHB-2. The more I listen the more I like it, and my in-room sound pressure measurements suggest that the bass amp is weaker. Therefore my call to Benchmark regarding gain; and here's hoping they can be matched. Then, of course, funds would have to be found.

^While your point has merit consider that ;  the 92db sensitivity rating is a standard rating into 8 Ohms. Drop 3 dB for each halving of impedance from there. Now we’re looking at something that is actually closer to 86 dB sensitivity. Which is why doubling down maintains frequency linearity. Jim Thiel told me himself that the power recommendations made were for standard 8 Ohm power ratings for amplifiers capable of doubling down, and if one were to use say a tube amp one should double the power recommendations as necessary. Thiel recommended 100 Watts minimum for the 3.7’s into 8 Ohms, doubling down into 2 Ohms would bring that recommendation to 400 Watts into 2 Ohms.

Tom, with a tri amp setup, do you hear other benefits besides better matching of the amp to the driver?
Regarding amp preferences for the 3.7, it all depends how loud you want to play and how big your room is or distance from the speakers. The 3.7 is rated at 92 dB for 1 watt and pretty efficient. The stability of an amp at 2 ohm is relevant but the need to double power from 4 to 2 ohm is only meaningful if you use the maximum output. I based this on experimenting with the bryston 7bst, which allows to switch from parallel to serial, with a minimum impedance cut in half. No difference at any level below 90 dB listening level. 

^A minimum of 400 Watts into 2 Ohms is excellent advice. Depending on ones room and desired volume output, multiples of that power output into 2 Ohms could be appreciated. As far as preamplifiers go, much of it depends on the specific amplification and source components used, it’s possible that you might not even need one.

@vaan whatever you choose make it 400 watts minimum at 2 imo 

^It’s all about using the right tool for the job at hand. A different particularly fine tool might be better for a different job.

The best sound I ever got from the KEF LS50’s was with the AHB2. However, the LS50’s does not have much bass but is still rather good in a small room Now if a speaker can benefit from 2 AHB2’s, and a lot can, then that is another story.

I just listened to Linda Ronstadt’s Greatest Hits on the CS3.7 and single AHB2 and it sounded wonderful. I actually listened to it 2 times since I enjoyed it so much. However, listening to things like Zeppelin leaves me wanting more power.

I am keeping the AHB2 for its great synergy with my KEF LS50’s. I have decided on getting the $6K (less from a dealer) Coda #8 V2 which is 250 | 500 | 1000 at 8, 4, and 2 Ohms. It is also a little warmer (12 watts Class A) than the AHB2 which I think mates better with the Thiel CS3.7’s top end.

Some persons midrange on their thiels were toasted so they pulled all drivers put in all new drivers and made it an active crossover pair of speakers. I can only cringe.

Hello all - back from away for a few days. Jon - was it you looking for grille fabric? Rob at Coherent Source Service has original grillecloth. Note that it got more sheer over time, so you might need a matched pair.

Re amps: What a trip - I have some potentially relevant experience with the AHB-2, Classe DR9 and Adcom GFA555 II. My setup includes 4 four pole knife switches plus locking bananas on their output jacks, driven by two pairs of amps, so that I can rig direct comparisons with simple switch throws and banana swaps. My test crossovers are outboard with no-solder access to separate driver outputs. Two CS2.2s are wired with two direct runs to each driver, swappable at the crossover outputs for comparing cable runs and the effects of cabling on the 3 different driving amps.
The GFA555 is a known to be decent mid-level amp. The DR9 performs above its price class. David Reich used Thiel CS3.5s as a design load. According to Atlantic Systems, the eastern US MacIntosh warranty service station, the DR9 output circuit is ’the same as’ the MacIntosh solid state circuit. Good amp. The AHB-2 is a THX licensed implementation of a class H amp regulated by a small Class A regulating circuit - new type of topology. I have appreciated discussion here of the AHB-2 among its peers. I agree with the observations that its bass leaves something to be desired. John Siau says that it is correct and "everything else" is bloated or loose or too big. That may be true. It is also true that B&W’s big bass would complement the AHB’s leaner than most bass balance. The AHB-2 is a winner, but might have deficiencies in the deep bass.

My test allows a CS2.2 woofer-only fed through a knife switch driven by the closely level-matched bridged DR9 or bridged AHB-2. The 2.2 crosspoint is 800 with first order rolloff, so there is musical content all the way up. Using a variety of sources, and with the absence of mid and highs, I consistently hear the following:

The AHB produces upper reaches which are cleaner, more detailed and more articulate. The lower reaches are drier, with the deepest transients sounding somewhat limp. The fundamental seems diminished. That diminishment might be in time-duration, but it sounds like transient imprecision and reduced level. Sounds like a hole in the bottom of the harmonic sequence.

One iteration of my test was with Dana Cunningham’s ’Live at Stone Mountain’ concert on a Yamaha concert grand, with Jeff Oster on horns and Max Dyer on Cello. I attended the stunning concert and assisted Dana’s evaluation of mixes and masters for production, so I feel comfortable with knowing the producers’ intentions. In this case as in general, I judge the DR9 to nail it much better than the AHB. The DR9 (bridged) delivers solid onset transients and well integrated fundamental bloom. I admit that the AHB reveals more nuance and space around the trumpet and cello. Similarly, the growl of the lower cello tones are authoritative with the DR9, and easily un-noticeable with the AHB.

Even if I accept Benchmark’s claim of ’rightness’, which is plausible given their company’s excellence, there remains the problem of the sonic jungle. Even for this live performance with minimal processing, the original musical event has gone through multiple stages of tweaking, and all of that tweaking used "normal" amplifiers with sonic signatures closer to (or actually being) the DR9 rather than the leaner, drier AHB.

Just for grins, my setup allows the following very appealing setup. The tweeter and midrange each has its own channel of the AHB. No contest winner over the GFA555 and noticeably more articulate and detailed than the DR9. The woofer can be instantaneously switched between a bridged DR vs bridged AHB. After all the note-taking and head scratching, I selected ’Flying over Water’, with Piano, Flugelhorn, Cello and Congas, for its beauty and complexity. Played full length with each bass amp, the DR9 always took me there and made me smile. The AHB left me in my chair analyzing the mix. Note the same result even with the SmartSub engaged; the sub-bass didn’t supply enough bottom for satisfaction.
I guess that’s my report for today.

OK

I'm not saying buy this gear for Thiel speakers obviously.Just curious about this brand.

Perhaps, it’s just my middle class sensibilities, but I don’t think it should cost multiples of what ones speakers cost (or the price of a decent automobile) to power our speakers.

Someone told me the 39k Leonidas integrated equals 100k worth of separates.

^New to me. The website info is impressive.

Anyone familiar with Pilium amplification ?

There’s more. Without the ease of powering, I’d still prefer them.

@unsound you prefer the 3.5 to the 3.6 just for the ease to drive factor or is there more?

@thoft, The 3.6’s are a much more difficult speaker to power than the 3.5’s.
FWIW, I’m not the only poster on this thread that prefers the 3.5’s to the 3.6’s. You might feel differently.
$1500 is not unreasonable, but not a bargain either.

Scratch it Thoft - a reference speaker for sure.

@solobone22  I never liked Naim not my type of sound.I conquer Innuos is really good and very musical worth considering.You also have 432 Evo music servers that are starting to be very popular.Regarding amps there is a 3.7s owner on this forum that drives them with Accuphase amp.

So uh there’s a set of 3.6 for sale next state over. They’re asking 1500. It’s itchy...

I want to support prof's comments about using tube gear with the 3.7s. I've noticed than ronkent hasn't responded to this discussion yet, but I remember that he was very happy with the sound from his 3.7s when they were driven by a PS Audio BHK Preamp and BHK 250 power amp. My recent addition of a BHK Preamp (with tube input stage and MOSFET output stage) to my M700 monoblocks (class D, with power to spare) has opened up the soundstage and naturalness of the music being produced by my Thiel 2.2s. The 2.2 is definitely an easier load than the 3.7, though, so not every tube or tube/hybrid amp is going to be an ideal match for the 3.7.

I've been looking at getting a streamer/server and have also heard concerns expressed about the Lumin streamers tending toward the dry/analytic side. I spoke to a dealer who sells both Lumin and Innuos gear, and the dealer recommended a Lumin streamer initially until I mentioned that I didn't want anything that might sound too bright with my Thiel speakers. The dealer's recommendation then changed to considering an Innuos Zen server/streamer because the sound was likely to be smoother and more musical. I'm sure that a Lumin can sound great in the right system, but it does make sense to buy from a source with a good return policy if things don't work out as planned.

@thieliste How about the NAIM ND5XS2?  Any experience with that one?

@solobone22  Be careful Lumin is not very musical more on the analytical side, i would try the MSB renderer.A couple of years ago i made a shootout between Lumin S1 and Ayon S5, the later was much more musical, really didn't like the Lumin.

@yyzsantabarbara  Never heard any Luxman cd players, only familiar with C900u/M900u combo.Conrad Johnson Premier 350SA is known to be a great match for 3.7s but very difficult to find.

I have an MSB Analog DAC feeding the Krell FBI.  Debating spending 4K on the renderer and power supply upgrade or going say the Lumin T2 route.  Think I'm going to do the 60 day demo on the Lumin.  The MSB is being fed via usb from an Intel NUC.

Will look up the DACs mentioned.

The beauty of the FBI is you can bypass the preamp.  I would love to try an Audio Research Ref 5 SE or a Conrad Johnson and then switch back and forth and see what they all sound like.

Does this ever end!!!! :-) 

I feel like going krell fpb-300 with Conrad Johnson tube pre amp or luxman tube pre amp. My dac will just be my 800 dollar fiio MP3 player with its line out function

As I’ve mentioned before in this thread: My Conrad Johnson Premier 12 tube monoblocks, 140W/side, drove the 3.7s beautifully. It seemed like an "ultimate" combination of lush, organic sound, but with precision and plenty of power.

A friend who is a high end audio reviewer, and who actually wasn’t fond of Thiel speakers (felt they were always too bright when heard at shows/stores etc) was simply blown away by the combo. He felt "it just doesn’t get much better than that."

@tmsrdg Not a trader but a long bag holder on a stock that was supposed to pay for this current audio system. Next year will be the year for that (which I say every year). 

I do software development. I have a lot of servers on the cloud that run production services which I wrote and manage. So I need a lot of monitors to see activity across the cloud machines and services.

@thieliste I know you were not referencing me on the DAC comment but have you heard any of the top end Luxman DACs. There is a new DAC chip in the $16K D-10X SACD that is supposed to be great. I heard the previous top of the line Luxman SACD's DAC and it was great. This new chip is supposed to measure like a Mola Mola Tambaqui and sound like a R2R. I am waiting for Luxman to release a DAC only version with this new chip. 

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The Thiel CS3.7 speakers have about 20 ours already in my house and it sounds totally different from the first couple of hours. Things have opened up with some explosive and fast sound. The soundstage is large and the great attributes of the AHB2 are being heard. A clear, almost like you are there with the performers. I do not get that feeling with other amps.

However, I think the amp is not the first choice for the CS3.7 if I had an unlimited selection of amps to choose from. I think more power would give the sound a little more grunt when it is called for. The top end is maybe a little harder than I want. Now this could be because the Thiel Coax driver plays harder than my KEF LS50. Or, my room is small and I am getting reflections (likely off my ceiling) that are smearing things up a little. My KEF's sounded a bit softer on top but they do not have the larger frequency response as the CS3.7 (in a small room). I am also playing it rather loud now since I am enjoying it. The DRC application that I am planning should be very interesting.

I can definitely say the AHB2 is a very very good amp on the Thiel CS3.7. It is not the best sound I have heard from this speaker but it is close and maybe the most clear. An ideal amp would be something that has the clear and silent background sound of the AHB2, with a bit more warmth, and a bit more power or grunt. The amps I listed before have some aspects of all of these attributes, though that AHB2 silent circuitry may not be duplicated by the others. I will test them out in house when I have the time, money, and energy. Right now I am just going to enjoy what I have since it sounds real good, a homerun in my books. Thanks Mr. Jim Thiel.

@solobone22 My response was for you sorry lol.

@yyzsantabarbara Big decision, I'm a big r2r ladder DAC fan therefore the 2 combos i have on my radar are either Aqua Formula xHD + LinQ or Totaldac d1-direct + d1 streamer.A guy that owned the Aqua combo and Totaldac d1-Twelve combo told me the Aqua was much better, i was shocked lol.The Aqua Formula xHD has some of the best price/performance ratio.

@yyzsantabarbara Good stuff!

@thieliste What are you looking at for a streamer?  I'm in the market as well.

@yyzsantabarbara,Interesting office setup -- are you a trader?

@unsound  I was thinking of getting a hardware based DRC system in the past. I looked at Room Perfect, Space Optimization, Deqx (sp?), and ARC3. I remember Space Optimization was describing setups where you can place the speaker against a wall and have the sound processed as if the speaker was in the optimal positioning away from the wall.

The DRC I will explore will be a software based solution running on my ROON Server (in another room).

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/what-is-accurate-sound-r923/

A note about the CS3.7 sound now. I am listening to the radio late at night at low volume. I seem to be hearing everything but just lower volume. I think that is a compliment to the speaker and the preamp (which I rave about). In the past, when I used to go DAC directly into the AHB2 I hated low volume listening. I felt like I was missing parts of the sound, not so with the HPA4 preamp. The CS3.7 is an added bonus for late night listening. Reproducing all that the preamp is feeding it.

I posted some photos of my room,
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7605

^There might be some advantages of close wall placement when using DSP.