I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
@unsound I saw your prior post on this and do have some concern that the amp may not work. Not a big deal if it does not, the CS3.7 is not going anywhere nor is the Benchmark stack. I plan on setting up 2 rooms once things get back to normal.
The Magico A3 speaker I demoed at a store with my old AHB2 sounded closed in with a single AHB2. I actually sold it after that demo since I was thinking I was going to get the Luxman. Though that changed when I bought the HPA4 and then re-purchased the AHB2.
I will find out soon enough. Unfortunately I do not have funds available to buy a second AHB2 in the short term.
BTW - Did you read the Benchmark designers comments on the links I posted above?
Whether it's due to different measuring techniques or rounding to standard numerations, I think the 4 Ohm nominal rating is a bit off. The Stereophile measurements suggest a low of 2.4 Ohms and the graph looks more like a nominal 3 Ohm rating to me. And with a difficult phase angle to boot. I'd suggest working from that 2.4 Ohm minimum impedance when gauging for appropriate amplification.
I went with the all Benchmark setup because I thought the HPA4 was the best piece of audio gear I ever heard and wanted to hear this gear in what Benchmark considers the optimal setup. They recommend professional StarQuad XLR. A lot of documentation on their web site.
The system today sounds very clear and neutral with my KEF LS50’s. No fatigue or harshness whatsoever. It definitely does not have that warm detailed glow of the Luxman m900u amp I heard and would not mind buying. It is more like a peek into the recording studio with this gear as compared to something like the Luxman.
I think the neutral Benchmark stack sounds even better than the most neutral system I have demoed in the past, a SimAudio stack with $15K-$20K pieces. I also like it much better than my old Bryston 4B-SST and 7B-SST gear I owned with Thiel SCS4 and KEF LS50. There is less harshness and fatigue compared to these 2 others.
My SACD player is a 20 year old modified Sony SCD-1 that sounds much warmer than my Benchmark DAC3B. I have started to play the SCD-1 again with increasing regularity since it sounds so incredible through the noiseless Benchmark stack. You can really flavor the sound with different types of sources since the Benchmark does not add anything to it. Some may not like this character but for me it is a revelation and the fact that is cheaper than the other options I was considering is icing on the cake.
I am not sure if the 4 Ohm CS3.7 will work with the single AHB2, pretty sure 2 AHB2’s will work. My room is small and i do not play that loud in my office. However, if the AHB2 is not a good match, the CS3.7 goes to another room and the AHB2 stays.
papasmove The Panel has posted some information within this thead about cracked baffle(s) and corresponding concrete applications. I will review back and attempt to recover an answer or general consesus regarding this important matter. Rob and Tom are our resdient experts. Read over their opinions as well. Happy Listening!
tomthiel Yes- the 70's Phase linear did have a reputation for catching fire, as well as, those early editons of Counterpoint gear. After Counterpoint folded as a company, Mike Elliott did continue to offer repair/upgrades to his products.He is now retired. There is another Audiophile that took over that operation although it has been a few years back. A Google search might find the latest repair/upgrade tech currently. Happy Listening!
@jhouse55 despite they heavy electrical abuse they went through with the last owners, the finish on mine were damn near flawless. Obviously minor scuff here and there but other than that, almost perfect finish. I wish I could help but I’ve never tried to get rid of fading or stains on the finish of speakers.
Well rob said if the speakers aren’t sounding or doing anything weird they’re probably fine just that they sit at 3 ohms. Only issues that exist is related to the power amplifier. I’m betting that because my thiels are 3 ohms they hang in the lower 2 ohms which my adcom gfa 5800 isn’t officially rated for.
Has anyone ever had any problems with the lighter veneer on their Thiels? Mainly referring to a cup stain or something else and then tried to get it out by light sanding etc. @thoft did you do anything with your 3.5 on the outsides or was it just driver replacement. I really don’t want to have to reveneer speakers if it’s a light stain, but I’m thinking a little sanding will be needed, carefully.
Expansive grout is a waterproof cement product with adhesives, designed to expand in a crack to seal it. It may be called foundation crack sealer, wet-stop or similar. Those original CS7 baffles were portland cement concrete, which continues to shrink over time. (Its first cure cycle is 7 years, when its shrinkage is nearly over.) Grouts add gypsum and/or other expansive masonry ingredients to achieve various controlled expansions. I don't know what exact product Thiel (or the nearby repair shop) used. But a millwright or masonry contractor should point you in the right direction. Disclaimer: After my time at Thiel
@thoft, I once heard B&W 802’s through a Counterpoint hybrid amp playing the most glorious chorale music at one of StereoExchange’s older locations in NYC. A huge space. It was the one and only time I remembered enjoying B&W’s. I had become somewhat friendly with a few of the staff. After about 20 minutes the salesman waived his hand over the Counterpoint and said it was getting hot and he proceeded to shut it down. He then whispered in my ear that these things have a tendency to burst into flames. Something that I’ve heard oft heard repeated over the years since then,
Does anyone have any tricks for properly protecting and packaging my CS2’s for an upcoming move we are doing? I noticed that the tweeter, especially, is just behind the grill and could become easily dented/ damaged. I don’t have the original boxes, unfortunately. Any ideas would be helpful.
All contact me here or PM if you run across an Accuphase or Sony ES player that uses the KSS-272A laser/optic mechanism. We are blessed to have many DIY experts on the Panel. Happy Listening!
@tomthiel if my speakers are completely fine and just for some reason are 3 ohms at resting you think the ohm drops while playing go into 1 ohm territory?
At this point I’m just getting the Aragon 2004 for the kef 104/2. I’m debating on whether I should search for the 3.7 or or wait till next year stick with the 3.5 and get the Aragon 8008 for the 3.5. If I get the 3.7 at a later time I’ll sell the 2004 move the 8008 to the kef then get a krell.
@thoft, Mondial claims it increases power into 2 and 1 Ohms, but it won’t say by how much or for how long. Keep in mind that when an amplifier is doubling down power with each halving of impedance, that typical speakers are decreasing sensitivity by 3dB with each halving of impedance as well. Which at high power levels can lead to frequency nonlinearities, increased distortion levels, and perhaps even potentially driver damaging clipping. if the amp can’t keep up. That their 8008 blew it’s fuse after a short period of high level output into 2 Ohms during independent testing suggests there’s a chance that their claim might be little more than a parlor trick. If they can’t maintain it, they’re not likely to spec it. Which is why one often sees things like "stable" or for "musical transients". Which often means that it can do it, but not maintain it for more than a brief moment. Notice the specs for:
papasmove Welcome! Good to see you here. Thank You for your introduction and owning a pair of 7.2 loudspeakers. Very cool that you procured the Krell FPB 600 amp. Stay tuned until one of our DIY experts chimes in to address your concrete baffle query. Happy Listening!
scubabird Welcome! Good to see you here. I would say seek out a Vandersteen 3A Signature loudspeaker. This will closely mimic a Thiel CS 2.4, CS 2.7 or CS 3.7 model. Take the time to read throught this thread for additional information on older/vintage loudspeakers. Well annotated per members of the Panel.
Wow guys - I take a break and you all go at it! Unsound alludes to a "problem" in such a long, detailed thread as this one. Lots of information would be redundant for regulars, but helpful to new participants. I appreciate it when someone directs others to where they might access the discussion.
Regarding concrete repair - look for expansive grout at Lowes, etc.
Paradisecom - congratulations on your CS2s. In many ways that is the seminal Thiel design; it took the concepts generated in the model 3 and refined them for a smaller space and source material at a lower price. The CS2 sold more units than any other Thiel product ever - over 11,000 units. All the Renaissance work I am doing on the CS2.2 will be retrofittable to the CS2. Regarding black laminate - what a trip. I wanted to bring a polished lacquer piano black finish into an affordable form. It became sadly clear that was impossible. Material flaws, along with susceptibility to damage in production and/or shipping and use led to price increases and unhappy customers. It remained in the stable at an upcharge, but we never promoted it due to its difficulties.
Thoft - you have a problem. My 3.5s measure 4.8 ohms DC resistance which seems right for their performance impedance curve. Rob Gillum can help you troubleshoot. If it comes to replacing parts, consider the upgrades we’ve been talking about here.
Scubabird - Rob’s answer #3 invalidates part of my previous response about Thiel revisions. Sounds like 3.7 revision 2 was to recalibrate the changes made by migrating to PC boards. BTW: I agree with Rob on liking P to P on Masonite better than PC boards. Go to Rob for any problem - he has made and repaired every aspect of every Thiel product since 1988.
Regarding the Benchmark AHB2 amps. I would appreciate public discussion here driving Thiels. They are in my stable and your collective opinion would help me calibrate their performance compared with other high-performance amps, which I don’t have access to.
Papasmove - good score on Jim’s Krell FPB-600. I was your auction under-bidder - dropped out because I have no business owning that. FWIW, that amp was routinely upgraded. Dan D would send Jim the latest tweaks for his feedback. Rob G was prepared to spend up to $10K for it, but deferred to me who dropped out. Good score.
Back to the lab. I’m getting close to tri-amping, bi-amping, single amping comparison on the 2.2s.
@scubabird I think the KEF's are a bit like the Thiel's with the same type of tweeter and midrange combination (some similar sonic characteristics). I went from the Thiel SCS4 to the KEF LS50 and now to CS3.7. I preferred the LS50 in a smaller room over the SCS4. SCS4 could play better in the larger room.
I got some feedback to my driver replacement questions from Rob Gillium.
1) The driver replacement is fairly easy. Remove, solder , and secure. No sound calibration is necessary, but the drivers do require some playing time for break-in. The break-in time is usually around 200 hours, at a moderate volume level.
2) The CS2.7 and CS3.7 coaxes are $525 each, plus shipping. The woofers for the CS3.7 are $400 each, and the Passive Radiators are $200 each, plus shipping.
3) The newer crossover was added at serial number #882 (rev 2). I prefer the older style crossover which was done with point-to-point soldering on masonite. The newer style (revision 2) was done on a PC board.
4) The cap of the CS3.7 is power coated, however the original versions were an anodized aluminum (smooth). All versions can be touched up with a black semi-flat krypton paint #1613.
@scubabird, I too think the closest model to the legacy Thiel’s currently made at that price point is the Vandersteen 2’s. On the other hand, the attributes that you singled out; ...”exceptional detail and clarity...”...is where they separate the most. The Magnepans previously mentioned share most similarly in transient response and to some degree in coherence (compared to others), but are quite different in other ways. Based upon your previous post, I think you’d be happiest with genuine legacy Thiel’s.
I owned Thiel 7.2s many moons ago but mine had the mineral composite baffle. Don't know if it true or not but a couple of people told me there were a couple of reasons for the switch. One was about 15 pounds of weight difference per speaker and the other was problems when speakers were shipped overseas (e.g. Asia)
I just learned something from Rob Gillum regarding 3.7s.He told me that first generation 3.7s coax incorporated a silver bezel, latest generation have a black bezel instead of the silver one.
Hello I have been a long time reader and fan of this forum. I have Thiel cs7 that have been upgraded to the 7.2 to say that I cheated on the audiophile path would be an under statement. i bought my speakers from a fellow audiogoner appx. 5 years ago, at that time I thought my Krell ksa 100 amp would suffice, but everything I read said 7.2s NEED power and plenty of it. So I started researching and listening to bigger amps. i was just about to pull the trigger on some Mac 501s when I read about the Thiel liquidation auction in Tn. I now have the Krell fpb 600c that Jim used to power his/my speakers. When I bought the speakers the concrete baffles were cracked but everything sounded great. Now with the bigger krell on the speakers I am getting air through the cracks which causes distortion in the woofer of my left speaker. I talked to Rob a few years ago about the cracks and he said there was a small shop near Thiel in Ky. that use to do those repairs but they closed about the same time Thiel closed. My big question is "has anyone repaired a cracked concrete baffle or know someone that can repair a concrete baffle"?
I read things on zobel networks commonly being used with thiels speakers and amps used with them can anyone explain this? As well as the alpha goertz cables people talk about.
If I was looking for something that provided the essence of what I love about the Thiels, and was looking to get hold of something that was in current production, my starting point would be Maggies and Vandersteens. I had Magnepan speakers in my listening space from 1984 to 1996 and loved them. Moved onto Thiel when we needed something more practical to best co-exist with our then toddler. I started with the Thiel CS .5, and then in 2011 moved up to the 2.4. Much easier to work into my listening space than would be comparable Maggies. I have never owned Vandersteens, but in my space Vandersteens would be easier to work with. Also, Vandersteens would be easier to work with from an amp perspective relative to either Thiels or Maggies. Hope this helps.
Hope I’m not going to ruffle any feathers with this question, but would like to know any recommendations folks here might have for a currently manufactured speaker in the range of $2K-$3K per pair that delivers alot of what made the legacy Thiels sound so good. I assume any such product would implement the time coherent design principles and sturdy construction of classic Thiels. Might go somewhat higher on price range but not looking to spend twice that amount. Could look for older Thiels, but for now am wondering if anyone else is currently building new speakers much along those lines. My fond memories of my original 2’s was their exceptional detail and clarity compared with most anything else I shopped at the time. Thanks for any suggestions!
I just finally picked up my first set of Thiels, a minty pair of CS2's. Actually, it was a set of CS0.5's that were my first experience in this crazy hobby over 20 years ago and I never forgot it. I purchased these from the original owner and they're finished in black laminate, which I haven't seen very often. They sound heavenly and I'm having a blast with them, rediscovering music. I have them in my home office, sitting next to my VA Schonbergs that have been my favorite speaker in the house for the last year, or more.
My my wife said I have too many toys....says the lady with 15 purses. I might need to have her committed...
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