Thiel Owners

Is there a known replacement for the 2.2  8" woofer?  Are any still available?   There is a pair of 2.2's for sale locally at a ridiculous price with one woofer likely blown.  Alternately - is rebuilding the woofer an option?

I won't be giving up my 3.5's but at the price offered I'm thinking of getting them for a relative or friend - or just to have around for fun

FYI there is a smorgasbord of vintage thiels for sale on the SF Bay Area Craigslist.  
 3.6’s for $850 that look good
2) 2.2’s one for $250 w/ the probable blown woofer
    one for $395
1 or 2  3.5s in questionable shape
3 or more!  .5s
 and a 1.5

I was thinking of grabbing that $250 2.2 but don’t need another project or pair when I really think about it.

I'm with bluetone.  The first time I heard the 3.5 demo-ed at a local emporium my jaw dropped.  I finally picked up a pair in excellent condition seven years ago.   Recently I upgraded my amp and preamp with more nice vintage gear. A Classe CA300 amp and Superphon Revelation preamp.   My jaw dropped again.  The palpability and power are still astounding.  

The foam surround on one of the mids has finally given out though - and I am in the same boat as bluetone and many others. I stupidly had only one of the mids rebuilt by Thiel back in o4 and that one is still good.

I’ll be trying the scan-speak 10F/8424G form Madison soon.  I’ll first compare it with pink noise, other listening tests and some simple measurements, to the original in the other speaker.  If it’s close I’ll put the 10F/8424G in both and work on getting the original 13M 8521 re-foamed.   The tough thing about that is finding the right foam surround for it.

Re. harshness etc.   As many have noted. These need the right room and the right electronics or they can sound very annoying indeed.  Satisfy their requirements and and they are still capable of astounding

I will post again after experimenting and would very much like to hear how bluetone and others have faired in this endeavor.

The color of the foam (to my eye) does indeed match the color of the paper.

@thoft
"Bone dog my thiel 3.5 have the scanspeak 10f in them I think they sound great"

Do your 10f mids have the waveguide (shallow horn?) flange on top of the 10f's.   I thought I had read that Rob of Coherent Source had assembled mids complete with that flange for a premium price - but I have not been able to reach him.

The Madisound '13M Replacement" has a flat flange that brings the diameter to the original's I believe, but does not include the waveguide.

Does anyone know if/ how that waveguide - which appears to be epoxied or bonded to the original driver, can be removed?   It would be nice to bond it to the Madisound 13m replacement. 

'no luck so far' on the 200wpc bargain Manley I meant

Thank you thoft for your taker on the 10f,   
jafant thanks for the welcome.

tomthiel Thank you for your input.  
FWIW   I have pulled the drivers and they are  labled "scan-sperak 13M Thiel  
code: 8521" .  

When I sent one back to Thiel years back they 

Those are what most everyone says are the original spec mids.   The surrounds sure look like foam to me - and gave out with tears like old foam.  Not black rubber but gray foam.

I examined the rear after pulling drivers and it also looked like foam glued to the paper cone.

Interesting discussion re. tube amps driving the 3.5s.  I just upgraded my solid state amp from and Adcom 555II to a Classe CA300 and havre been luxuriating in the power and glory.  The 3D palpability approaching tube magic - but . . . .

I keep waiting for that crazy garage sale find of a 200 wpc Manley or VTL at a price I can justify to 'She Who Must Be Obeyed' - but luck so far.

I do have a Jolida integrated tube amp on the shelf that needs service- and now  I'm wondering what that'd be like on the 3.5's at lower volumes, perhaps with the bass eq removed to lessen power demand.   

Meanwhile I'm crossing my fingers that my rubber dope temporary fix on my bad mid surround will hold until A more permanent fix is installed.

@thoft "I wasn’t able to free mine and gave up. They’re just in as flat"

Got it - I figured separating it would not be easy.    

I am not certain about wave guided being available from Coherent Source. I had read somewhere that he sold complete driver assemblies for  $250-$300 apiece and just assumed those included the waveguide.

Unless I hear from him soon I may just order those Madisound M13 replacements and perhaps at some point,  have a wood-turning buddy try and lathe - carve some wave guides out of  hardwood that matches the cabinets. 

thielrules.  Thanks for sharing your experience removing the waveguides. 

new mid driver burn in?   I recently received my pair of scan-speak 10F "13M replacement" from Madisound for my beloved 3.5s

I've taken a bunch of pink noise and vocal sample recordings at different distances with a decent condenser mic for future comparison.  Now it's time to install and I'm wondering - should I run them free-air with a burn in program or playlist before installing?   Should I install and run a burn in - or just put them in, screw it and listen to music??   

There are more pressing questions to ponder I know - but your collective wisdom appreciated.


@tomthiel -Thanks you so much for 'telling tales out of school' and letting us behind the scenes at the company who's products we love and admire.

Pulling the mids and I thought the phase would be obvious.   It's not.
There is one wire with kind of subtle red or rust coloring. The other white.  No + - on the driver.   I aim guessing the colored wire is positive but wanted to check with those who know. 

Hope you  all had great Thanksgivings.

Thank You Tom.   I'll do a battery check just in case.  

3.5' mids replaced with Madisound's '13M replacement' scan-speak 10f with adapter ring.

My experience to date (and a little advice):

Loosening the tweeters needs to be done with just the right screwdriver and much care.  I had a ratcheting screwdiver with a perfect bit.  The screws area deep and tight.  Leave the top screw in and remove bottom two then loosen to be able to remove the mids.

The mids themselves come out easily.  White wire is positive. There is a red paper washer under the terminal on the speaker which I did not notice at first.  Black one on neg. side (duh)

The waveform rings will come off with with a strong sharp folding knife to pry it apart from the driver.  It is perhaps hot glue that holds them together. It is not epoxy as I had feared.


The waveform rings have a ridge that fit the original M13 but do not work on the replacement. You will have to hacksaw it off if you want to use it on the 10f or put the new ones in without them.

Measurements and impressions:  I took some less then laboratory spec measurements and recordings with a condenser mic into Logic Pro.

email me noams@rum comcast.net if you want pics of spectrum.
At 10"  lined up on the mid centers*:
From 200 to 4khz the graphs looked fairly similar. Above 4khz.  The 13m's drop off on an even slope The 10f's fall off less evenly,  drop off a bit at around 7K then bump up around 11k
* (yes I'm picking up some tweeter too)
Measurements done just after driver install - no burn-in 

Listening:
I did not do any burn in but have about 10 hours on them now. Mostly a variety of well recorded Jazz and alt-country.

They are very transparent and detailed but to my ear (at this point) the upper mids through lower hi's sound more pronounced and tad exaggerated. I hear it on vocals through snares and hi-hats. Come to think of it even upper bass is affected.  I did not carefully compare sensitivity and was not super careful running pink noice at the exact same level each go round.   I am suspecting they are bit more sensitive and are boosting everything in their range (which is a lot with these crossovers) in their own very detailed way. **

 I am hoping further break-in will reduce this.  Imaging is as good as ever.  On some material they sound great, and overall the sound is still very impressive - but to my ear the originals seemed more balanced.   They sounded 'just right' on almost everything I threw at them.   Some of this impression may just be what I'm used to. 

One of my original 13m's is still good and the other has a bad surround but is otherwise good.   I found a rubber surround that seems to fit perfectly and will at some point replace the foam on one or both of them.

For now I will keep these in and play the 'SH' out of them for a while. I'll report further impressions after they've had more hours on them.

Thanks to those here who helped with this endeavor.


** I do a bit of my own DIY on tube guitar amps and guitar controls but haven't tweaked crossovers at all.  If further break-in doesn't land me where I want to go I'm wondering if a simple voltage divider or dropping resistor right at the driver terminal could in effect reduce their relative sensitivity to the other drivers without mucking up the overall sound or screwing anything else up.


   

thoft. The new mid drivers are vey revealing and compelling, I’m just not sure the balance is quite right - at least on my system with the hours I have on them now. One good thing - I’m less worried about blowing them when I turn it up.

@thoft. FWIW I used an Adcom 555II on the 3.5's for years.  I installed a high quality passive stepped attenuator in it and ran my DAC directly into the amp.    I now use an old Superphon preamp into a Classe C300.

I'd say the Adcom set up gave me about 70% of what I'm hearing now.
Unfortunately I never did run the Superphon with the Adcom, but if experience with the Classe is any indication, the Superfon makes for a big improvement over going directly in.  I had bought into the 'less is more' philosophy on line level inputs and now believe that was a mistake.

All my non audiophile buddies where always very impressed with the old set up and I enjoyed it, but knew the Thiel's where cable of reaching another level.  

A word of warning -I've owned a bunch of 555II's and destroyed the woofers on a pair of Infinity Kappa's when one amp went bad.  After that I had that I had the amp driving the 3.5's check and serviced - but was always a bit nervous.  

With current used prices on 3.5's being as cheap as they are, the irony is that to really hear what they can do, you need to spend a lot more on what you feed them than you did on the speakers themselves to really hear their potential.

Thielrules

I did not use REW-  and did not know about it until your mention. Room EQ Wizard?  I’ll download and check it out.

I simply used Logic’s EQ plugin and snapped a few pics while pink noise was playing. I didn’t go too crazy with it.  I also recorded musical passages to compare by ear.  
Email is noams@comcast.net if you’d
like to see what I got - imperfect as my methods where.  

@prof    Love your description of 3D imaging / soundstage.  Well put.

@yyzsantabarbara  Congrats at getting through your rebuild. A lot of work while learning new stuff along the way.  Not a bad way to pass time during a pandemic.  Been doing a lighter weight thing with my 3.5 mid drivers.  

13m > 10f  3.5 mid follow up:
They do seem to be breaking in and evening out in a good way.   No new measurements taken - just subjective impressions.
I am back to listening to complete songs and enjoying the music.  I will try refoaming my bad 13m and at some point put the originals back in.  For now I will keep enjoying the 10f's and see how they (and my ears) evolve. 

Correction - no 3.5’s now
one 3.0 listed twice with mismatched woofers