Thiel Owners

Happy (last) Friday of 2018- All.

Yesterday I upgraded the NOS-11 (Pre/DAC) from Audio-GD to a Audio-GD Master-1 preamp and an Audio-GD R8 (R-2R Resistor Ladders DAC)

Great improvements across all areas!! also nice to experience that the CS-2.4 receives these upgrades with verve :-)

Tom thank you for the excellent advice.  Interesting thread no doubt. 

I will add this.  A local buddy let me borrow his higher power tube amp and it really woke up my 2.7.  He used it on 3.7 with success.  My BAT VK55 isn't a slouch for a 55 wpc tube amp however, the Thiels really need more power to punch out good bass notes. 

Sam, your experience is consistent with mine during 50 years with myriad amps and signal chains. More power, especially current, works better. One insight is that current lag induces phase lag. In most speakers phase lag is not audible, since phase is already compromised and the ear-brain is reconstructing - inferring the wave-form. But minimum phase transducers eliminate that fore brain engagement (because the wave-form is not phase compromised), and therefore any phase anomalies are much more apparent. Similarly holco's GD upgrade is more evident on Thiel (or other such as V'steen) minimum phase speakers.

I'm speaking from hard experience. Upstream transparency was the single most critical aspect of success or failure of Thiel auditions. The speaker always gets blamed for any musical failing. But if you think about it, the speaker is critically translating its input signal including phase response, which is why it can sound so good when the signal is right.

Did a video recording of my audio set, not the best recording in mono but just to get an idea ;)

https://youtu.be/xVTKm7MoWSA

Original song,
https://youtu.be/iIh2y5O8vH8

samzx12
Thank You for talking about tube amp comparisons. Will you move up the B.A.T. Chain?  This is one brand that has been on my radar to demo for quite awhile now.  Happy Listening!

holco
Thank You for sharing your video here.  Always a pleasure having you hands-on, DIY guys,  here as well.  Happy Listening!

Btw, why are there no options here to post photos and videos, IMHO not something that fits this subject and others on this forum.

@samzx12

Which higher powered tube amp did you just try and how many watts?

I’ve long used my Conrad Johnson Premier 12 140w/side mono blocks and they seem to drive anything with grip and verve, Thiel 3.7 And 2.7s included.

I owned a 55 w CJ tube amp before those and the difference moving up in power and amp design to the Premier 12s was quite dramatic. Mostly in the sense of focus, density, punch, grip and sense of power.

Jafant I doubt I'll move up the BAT chain because they don't make a tube amp I can afford with higher power. Or at least I'm not aware of. 

Prof I am using a Audio Research Ref 110. Like your Premiers it really grips the speaker and brings it into focus.  It probably won't leave my house lol. Well ar least hopefully not.  

Tom I had to read your post a couple times (lack of technical knowledge) but I think I understand what you're saying.  In a nutshell Thiels need current  :)

Also the 2nd half of what you are saying makes perfect sense.  The quality of the source is critical.  Basically garbage in garbage out.  

Sam - sorry for the dense language. The insight that is somewhat obscure is on the listener-cognition side of the equation. Phase coherence lifts a veil that allows the listener to believe the sound is real, and therefore the sound is subjected to a much higher level of scrutiny. So the garbage sounds worse on Thiels. 

Samzx12 - thanks for the note re the improved sq with more tube power - I am greatly enjoying my first tube amp, also a vk-55, but know there’s something(s) better out there.  What are your thoughts about running two BATs in mono? 

Sam, I had an ARC Ref 110 before my current Ref 150. Terrific match with the Thiels, even my hard to drive CS3.6s. I saw that you preferred the 8 ohm taps on the BAT VK55. I originally preferred the 4 ohm tap on my Ref 150, but I haven't switched back since I originally purchased the amp. What do you prefer with the Ref 110?

Hi Tom,

I was wondering if you would be willing to share the xover design of the CS2.7 or CS3.7.  I believe the mid+tweeter unit has separate xovers (vs. the 2.4 which is mechanical).  For the tweeter xover design, do you know if it has an electrical delay network to align the phase of the tweeter to the mid driver?  Or the phase alignment is done acoustically?

Thanks.

Great deal for someone in the Oregon area.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Thiel-2-4-Speakers/254044521077?hash=item3b263bc275:g:WDoAAOSwFZZcJ5p3:rk:6...

jserio
Nice catch!  Good to see you again.  Happy Listening!

Smoking good deal on those 2.4s. I’d almost buy ‘em just for the spare drivers. 10-12 hour drive for me during winter, no thanks.

Andy - I can share information, but can't send drawings until Thiel Audio's bankruptcy is settled.

You are correct; the 2.7 and 3.7 have 3 separate drivers with electrical crossovers, unlike the 2.4 which is electrically 2-way plus the mechanical mid-tweeter xo.

There is no time compensation in those crossovers. The coincident alignment is achieved geometrically via the position of the coaxial midrange and tweeter.

I currently have a pair of Thiel 3.6 speaks powered by a pair of Classe Audio DR-8 amps I use in mono mode. In mono mode, the DR-8’s put out almost 600 watts at 4 ohms and sound very good with the Thiels. I also have a Classe DR-5 pre amp.

Just located a Krell KSA 300S amp local to me and toying with the idea of adding the Krell to replace the DR-8’s. Have not heard the Krell recently, but thought it would add more bass to the Thiels.

Does anyone have any thoughts on these two amps?

kdross
Good to see you again. There are  a few of you guys that enjoy those Classe' DR power amps. I have been considering a Krell FPB series power amp. I was considering a KSA series power amp until I was advised that it is best suited with a dedicated line plus a 30A breaker. Otherwise, the 300S is a serious power plant.  Happy Listening!

Keep that Classe, kdross.  I've run a Thiel/Classe pairing for over two decades now.  And you cannot better it.  Believe me, I've tried.  The electrical and timbral match is perfect.   The closest on tone was a big Threshold, but it lacked the dynamic headroom and full resolution of the Classe that these Thiels often demand.  The Krells are a little too iron-fisted with Thiels, which thrive on the finer tonal nuances of any good amp.  The legacy Classe amps present a slightly finer tonal palette on a Thiel than the Krells as you climb the octaves.  

One tip on the older legacy Classe amps:  Once you get about 20-25 years out, they really do benefit from a full recap.  After extended conversations with their service techs and customer service department, and upon their recommendation, I recently recapped my old CA series.  

Classe designers used exclusively Nichicons during that era, and all the capacitor families they specified in the early models have since been superseded by Nichicon with improved audio-grade versions.

It was about a 75 capacitor job.  I do my own work, so the total cost was only about $250 for the parts.  But once given about 100 hours to settle in, the older Classe is even better than new.  Everything improves up a notch, and absolutely nothing is lost.  It revived into a real sonic tiger, and a perfect pairing with the Thiels.  Jaw-dropping, actually.  Dynamics through the roof with spectacular tonal nuance.  Now it's good for another two decades . . . and I probably won't care by then.  Highly recommended.

Thanks guys.  Sounds like I will keep my Classe amps.  I really do enjoy them and they do sound really good.  Just wish I had the DR-9 amps with more power.  

@sgmlaw,
Which CA series Classe do you use? I'm using a CA-300 with the 3.7s, but have been wondering for a while if that is enough. I'm interested in and concerned about recapping at this point. Classical solo/chamber/orchestral only (with maybe a hint of vintage 60s-70s rock if truth be told).
Todd

Got your pm.  Recapping won’t add watts, per se.  But it will stiffen up the power supply rails back to specifications so that they won’t sag as much under a heavy or sustained load.  Capacitance on the filters can start to fade a little after a couple decades.  Most of the time, with most speaker pairings, it won’t be noticed, because these instruments were so overdesigned to begin with.

But with a heavy sustained load, the quality of an older supply output can start to falter at the margins.  And as we all know, Thiels are all about plenty of sustained, very high quality current.  Not watts.  Current.  I’ve known this since the first day I owned a pair of these.  Your DR8 running bridged has more than enough high quality current reserve to drive a 3 Series Thiel.  But your Thiels will tell you without fail, every time, when its amp is starting to miss a beat here and there.  They are that relentlessly revealing of anything substandard, IMO.

Since they have emerged from their own recent reorganization, I found the people at Classe to be more than helpful with us old owners.

They would have no problems supplying a replacement jack set or screw, I’m sure.  And if not, an RCA jack on these is a generic part.   The originals are nothing fancy.  A basic Vampire or similar grade is probably an upgrade on it.

The current design team was fairly busy with some new product work, and they were not able to get back to me with some rather esoteric capacitor performance and specification questions.  But the tech and CS people were more than helpful and gave me detailed bench data to do the job I wanted.  I stayed as close to the original Nichicon parts selections of the original designers as they would have done.  No mods, no hot rodding.  All at original values.  A classic recap job.  Just a little better due to improvements with the latest electrolytic technology.  And they were rather impressed with the results, too!

The other thing you can do to keep your Classe (or any higher power amp) from straining, and your Thiels sounding their best, is a dedicated circuit and a high current power cord.  I run my Classe straight into a hospital grade dedicated outlet (20 amps via 10/2 Romex straight to the service panel) with an ancient Tice Infinite Speed cable that only provides some transient protection.  No other power conditioning.  The only ‘conditioning’ is a $99 iFi AC Purifier in the same duplex outlet, which does not impede raw AC delivery in the least.  And it sounds terrific, better than ever after two decades.

Todd, I run the CA-301.  Running unbridged, it is plenty enough for a 3 Series as long as you don’t try to fill a stadium with it.  Mine only have to fill a 600 sq ft listening room, and they can go as loud as I can tolerate.  And then some more.

Thiels are more about quality than quantity anyway.  If I wanted my neighbors a quarter mile away to hear Sinatra, I’d be running horns.

I’m winding down at this point, so this will probably be my last high quality system heading into retirement.

There is no time compensation in those crossovers. The coincident alignment is achieved geometrically via the position of the coaxial midrange and tweeter.

Hi Tom,

Actually you have answered my question.  

Thanks.

The crossover info on the 2.7s could perhaps assist when I finally get my subs in action.

2 Vk55s in mono should work nicely I think. It's a great sounding amp.  One of my favorites for sure.  

I have only used the 4 ohm tap on the Ref 110.  

Ordered the rest of the parts to upgrade the CS-2.4 crossovers to (hopefully) perfection ;-)

2x the 0.72mH Jantzen Wax Coil, Copper foil Inductor 30mm width, 14AWG

4x the Jantzen Universal PCB, FR4, 140mm x 190mm

Jantzen Solder, 4% silver - 100g

4x the 100uF 100V Mundorf ECap AC RAW electrolytic capacitor

2x the 2R 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor

2x the 30R 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor

2x the 4R7 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor 

2x the 27R 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor

2x the 3R 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor

To make 4ohm and 16ohm resistors (can’t get them in Europe) I ordered the next following resitors,

2x the 4R7 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor

4x the 27R 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor

2x the 39R 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor

27R + 4R7 in paralel make’s 4R

27R + 39R in paralel make’s  15R95 

Hifi Collective will pair them with higher measuring 27R and 39R resistors to get 16R resistors 

Because of the lead time for the coil’s it will take some time, keep you guys posted.

holco
Thank You for your dedication and hard work on upgrading the CS 2.4 loudspeaker's XO network.  Happy New Year's Eve.

sgmlawGood to see you again. Thank You for chiming in on Classe'/Thiel combination. It appears that we have another CA series fan on-board.Happy New Year's Eve.

You're welcome jafant.

Happy New Year

+1sgmlaw love Classe discussions - I have had a CA200 for 20+ years and it still drives my thiels flawlessly. Would love to recap but I counted and can’t remember exactly but there are over 20 capacitors. Yikes!

Excited to see what Classe comes up with next. Sounds like the business is up and running.

If I ever get my recapped Classe's back from the shop, I'll report. DR6 pre and pair of DR9 power that I've had since  the late 80s. 

popsGood to see you. Have any of you Classe' guys heard the Omega series?Those were some serious looking fire-power.  Happy Listening!

tomthielGood to see you today. Yes, I hope that you see a return on your amps as well. Reading the other sites, the Classe' brand is loved, represented and is in need of customer service.  Happy New Year's Eve.

Happy Thiel New Year  :)

A Happy New Year, and as my Scottish ancestors used to say at First Footing: 

"Lang May Yer Lum Reek."

"Lang may yer lum reek” is a Hogmanay greeting, implying "May you never be without fuel for your fire!", but more literally translates into "Long may your chimney smoke!”

Happy New Year everyone.  Thanks Jafant for keeping this thread rolling.  

Happy New Year! All

pops
my pleasure keeping this thread rolling. Thank You and the rest of the Panel for your contributions, impressions, insights and thoughts referencing Thiel Audio.

sgmlaw

Thanks for the great response. Last month I had my electrician install a dedicated AC line for my stereo equipment. Think the line is on a dedicated 20 amp breaker. I also have a Monster Power HTS 5100 power center for my equipment. The HTS 5100 makes it really easy to power on and off all of the equipment at one time.

While I really like my DR-8 amps, wondering if it would be worth locating a pair of DR-9 amps for the extra power. At 4 ohms the DR-8 in mono mode has 560 watts and the DR-9 would have 800 watts. Just do not know if it is worth the time and hassle to locate a pair of DR-9 amps and sell the DR-8 amps. Plus my DR-8 amps are in mint condition and have consecutive serial numbers (if that even matters).

Happy New Year everyone. This forum has been a focusing inspiration for me taking on this upgrade project. This project has served to reorient my work life more toward music, which has always been important to me, but has often take a back-seat to other initiatives. So thank you.

Beetle and I are making progress and should have something to report pretty soon.

Sqmlaw - the DR8 and 9 are quite similar except for the power output. If you like the amps and if they don't need recapping, you are better off than most music lovers. Power requirement rises dramatically for large rooms and loud levels. If it sounds good to you, you may be within the requirements of your room and levels. Enjoy.

Tom,
What, for reference sake, is your definition of "large room."  For example, ours is 20x20x8. Fortunately, the room is within an open layout floor plan, so there are openings on three of the four sides.
Thanks for the input.
Todd

@Tom. If I ever get my recapped Classe's back from the shop, I'll report. DR6 pre and pair of DR9 power that I've had since the late 80s.  
 Those amps are awesome.  Buddy of mine used to have a DR9. He kept for several years just because of the build quality.  Sounded pretty darn good also. 

I would call a 20' x 20' room large. Square can cause standing wave problems, but openings on 3 sides helps that a lot. No real delineations apply for "large" or "small"; the 'how much power is enough' is an ongoing unknown. But swapping amps is a big deal; but reports are consistent that more is better, all else equal, which it never is . . .  As you all know, Thiel speakers are low impedance, requiring lots of current. However, that low impedance is gracefully resistive, which minimizes the problems. Classé DR amps are true current source output stages, so they match Thiel very well.  All that said, bridged /mono configuration is less friendly to low impedance loads than normal mode. So, it's a soup, and I suspect your soup tastes pretty good.

Additionally I am exploring bi-amping and believe that we can get better performance from those two amps via split normal mode than from bridged mono mode. Since most solid state amps can drive half the impedance in normal mode relative to bridged mono, and since Thiel loads are low impedance, my hypothesis, my experience in general and with the CS3 and house 3.5s suggests that (vertically) splitting a normal-mode amp between bass and upper registers delivers the best of all performance. You have two appropriate amps. In your shoes, I would explore vertical bi-amping rather than swapping those amps for bigger ones.

Beetlemania will soon test that hypothesis with his bi-ampable hot-rod 2.4s. Also, I will be outfitting my PPs, 2.2 and 3.6s for comparative experiments as time allows, since I have 4 channels of Classé DR9 in my rig.

I've run bridged mono and vertical biamp and I've gotten the vague impression that I prefer bridged mono.  I think the high gain contributes to dynamics.  It seems livelier.  I'm looking forward to reading how people here feel after trying both.  

I am likewise eager to hear people's experiences. Please cite your amp particulars; this performance would be related to low-impedance behavior.