Hi all it's been some time since I chimed in, I try to have something relevant to bring to the table and will admit i'm flat out intimidated. What other forum has ther own in house designer engineer (Tom Thiel)
I love the idea of creating a list of Thiel friendly amps, especially tube amps as they baffle me with there ability at a fraction of the wpc of Solid state. To the gentleman looking at the large Cary Solid states those are a no go they cant operate in the lower impedance levels our Thiel need. I was told by Cary them selves there SI 300 Intergrated works fantastic on them and is very reasonably priced, It also has one hell of a Pre amp & Dac,
I finally installed my all Thiel HT/2ch room two weeks ago and ended up with a classe 5300for the 2.7 mains, MCS1 center and 1.7 rears, I highly recommend the larger Classe amps, The four power point 1.2 are powered with PS audio mew 700 mono class D. But what brought it all together was a Lyngdorf processor with room perfect and made integrating 2 thiel SS2 subs in stereo up front with the 2.7's in two channel it is the best I have heard them. It also runs an SVS 16 ultra in rear corner in LFE for effects and isn't used for two channel. I digest all my 2 channel music through Tidal, Deezer, Spotify hi res addition and have a blue sound that is utilizing the much better Dac in the Lyngdorf.
I loved the silent back round of the Lyngdorf and the ease of sub integration that I bought there 3400 2ch intergrated for my 3,7;s I couldn't be more pleased, absolutely magic,
I now want to know which of the really large Thiel speakers I would enjoy. Tom what a you hot rodding first? I owe the the members of this thread and look forward to the day i can bring more to the table. There is magic happening with state of the art room/speaker correction combined with true digital amps matched with good Dac and music streamer with tidal MQA files are Nirvana . |
Sorry for typo's hit send by mistake, |
So... CS 3.5. good stuff? A pair is for sale on a local CL. Probably can get them for 400. Any advice? Thanks, Jeff |
dan - no need for intimidation . . . I'm the "other Thiel". My brother Jim was the design engineer who was fluent in all matters technical. I was the manufacturing guy who built the product and production systems. Although I am conversant in the technicalities, I am not an audio engineer and am here to learn from you guys and develop a possible path for upgrade of classic products.
That upgrade project is behind schedule. It is likely that the first real product to emerge will be beetlemania's CS2.4s. I am cutting my teeth on PowerPoints and CS2 2s and have recently bought a pair of 3.6s. The 1.6, 6.1 and 7.2 are also on my radar. These each represent the terminal expression of their model form before the x.7 series, which could also benefit from upgraded caps, coils and resistors, but they are comparatively new and functionally current, and therefore last on the list.
Regarding your question about which big Thiel, I think either the 6.1 or 7.2 are strong. Both have upgrade potential via better caps, foil coils and Mills resistors. Both are extremely amplifier demanding with impedance around 3 ohms over most of the range. FYI, those were both officially replaced by the 3.7, but the back-story may shed some light. Jim was dying and Thiel needed to streamline its offerings, since all the pre x.7 were manufactured in-house. The obsoleted products still had performance viability, but the company chose to shift the x.7 XO and driver manufacturing to China for production viability. If anyone has sixes or sevens, we would have to reverse engineer the crossovers which I can do from photos and/or a loaner crossover. By the time we get to those models, we'll have clear ideas of what to replace with what.
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dancastagnaGood to see you again. Thank You for sharing an update to your system/room. No need for intimidation, I welcome the difference between us and our preferred gear that helps to enjoy the Music.
Happy Listening!
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catalysis
Good to see you. Happy Listening!
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drrsutliff
Thank You for sharing and chiming in. Happy Listening!
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giantsalami
read back over this thread, specifically posts from oblgny, he is our 3.5 resident expert. It is incredible that this model is still loved by so many given its vintage. Across several Audio forums as well.
Happy Listening!
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Thanks, Jafant. I will check this out, as I have time today. |
giantsalami
my pleasure. The 3.5 is owned by several contributors here. I mention oblgny as he has had (3) pairs each with different gear, different systems. This Man knows this speaker very well. Have fun on your Audio journey.
Happy Listening!
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@last_lemming I'm using Grado cartridges for my vinyl front end. They tend to be a bit darker without losing details. Works really well for me. |
last_lemming
read back over this thread as there are few Vinylphiles on the panel.
Happy Listening!
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giantasalami
I had 3.5s for several years. Excellent for all types of classical music (including organ). They DO need an amplifier with cojones. Jim Thiel suggested the Bryston 4B, and I was grateful for that advice.
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Thanks, brayeagle. I'm waiting on a response from the seller. I have a Modwright KWA-150 SE. I'm thinking that should do the trick. |
I'm considering selling my CS3.7'S with the Smartsub SS2.2 and the P0X5 that is set for the 3.7's and CS2.4 for surrounds.
Black finish.
Will replace with the big Blades that I can new for 16g's.
Will sell for half that. Looks like not much of a market lately. Any thoughts?
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@sandydennis11 My fav speakers are #2 Thiel CS 3.7 and #1 KEF Blades. If you have the room those Blades would be an improvement from my side of the fence. |
Sandydennis11 do you have a pair of SS2'? were are you located?
Dan
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Only one. San Francisco. Someone has an SS3 in Chicago
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giantsalami
Looking forward to your report on the ModWright KWA-150 SE.
Happy Listening!
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yyzsantabarbara
Good to see you here. Happy Listening!
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sandydennis11,
When I put my 3.7s up for sale recently I got quite a lot of interest.
(Of course, as usual, a bunch of it was flakey, but I did sell them relatively quickly).
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Good to see you- prof
Happy Listening!
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Prof, it’s the shipping costs that usually doesn’t help. The crate and the pallet and professionally packing is expensive. They would be dropped off in the room you want them in.
The combo sounds great.
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sandy,
I put up mine favouring local sale, but it was actually easier to sell them non-locally as I got a lot of interest from people all over. As it was made clear in my ad hat buyer pays shipping everyone inquiring knew this and many wanted to arrange that the speakers were shipped to them. So in a way I see the willingness to ship speakers should open up the number of offers. Most people wouldn’t expect shipping to be included in the prIce.
All that said, I’m done buying/selling big speakers as they are a pain to ship. |
We have a company out here that takes all the pain out of packing and shipping big speakers. They work with the Museums in SF, so they are the best and of course expensive. Would not trust any other movers. At least 2grand to ship to east coast.
And of course money seems not to be an object here in the home of Facebook, Google etc. so selling used equipment is a bit of a struggle. |
prof
My son will inherit my system. He's measured the 2.7s and has built shipping crates for them. He did remark he's thankful he had the carpenter's tools to do the job. He called it a royal PITA! |
I just sat back and listen ever so carefully with my new Parasound JC5 amp and the 3.7’s and decided not to part with the speakers. The bass is amazing now.
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sandy - I'm glad you're staying onboard. Anemic bass is almost always caused by power limits of the amp. The JC5 is a monster, by a legendary designer. Sounds like we should add it to "the list", yes?
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sandydennis11
Thank You for the prelim report on the JC5. The manufacturer specs look incredible to state the least. No doubt that this power amp will become a modern classic. A few years ago I spent some time w/ the HCA-3500 and it is a beast as well.
Looking forward to more reports as you massage this amp into your system/room. Happy Listening!
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jon_5912
yes, your are correct about John. I believe that in the beginning, he used the Parasound integrated amp, then graduated into separates.
Happy Listening!
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brayeagle
Good to see you. Your Son will be a lucky soul someday for inheriting your system. Hope you are well and ready for the Fall season.
Happy Listening!
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Wait, wait...I'm confused here: the
Parasound JC5
doesn't double into 4 ohms and isn't even rated into 2. I thought these were important criteria. What am I missing?
Todd
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Todd - the doubling down spec proves the amp is not current limited. This amp is technically current limited (doesn't double down), but the current specs are so high as to be plenty strong for the job. I think I read that it is rated into "short term 1.5 ohm loads", and the output stage delivers enormous current. As (perhaps prof?) someone said earlier: at some point enough current is enough. A full lab analysis would be nice, but John Curl and Parasound have stellar reputations.
sandy - can you get any more information regarding the 2 ohm behavior of this amp?
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Right On! Tom and John,
while it is nice to have a power amp that doubles down from 8 to 4 to 2, we must consider the peak (max) amps as well. If 90 Amps are not enough...?
Happy Listening!
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If I remember correctly voltage (v) = current(I) times resistance (r). Watts equal volts(v) times amps(I). That means that if an amp ever actually dumped 90 amps into a 4 ohm load it would be delivering 32,400 watts. That's 43 horsepower. It must be able to deliver that for a VERY short period of time or there's some other factor I don't know about. I was a math major but I've never spent time trying to understand the numbers with this stuff and it's been a long time since I did any non-trivial math. Is it phase angle related?
i=90
r=4
v = ir = 360
w = 360*90 = 32,400
1hp = 746 watts.
so, 90 amps into 4 ohms is 43.43 hp.
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jon_5912
your math is correct. I also would like to know, precisely, how Right phase angle(s) in our Thiel speakers tie all of this together? I do know that it is related to providing an Amp that is 2 to 3 Ohms stable across the frequency range. Perhaps one of our engineer -minded contributors can chime in here?
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
As we cultivate a list of preferable Power Amps, can we list each amp's max/peak Amps of current output please? Thank You.
Happy Listening!
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My Reference Amp to date:Conrad Johnson Premier 350- 350x350w into 8 ohms. 600x600w into 4 ohms. 66A of peak current delivery. Happy Listening!
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The max current spec is instantaneous allowed by the storage capacitors, transformers and various resistance elements. Such a high maximum will maintain integrity of the early onset transient of the signal. Where phase angle comes to play is that such a clean onset transient would be rounded-suppressed-scrambled by a phase incorrect transducer. With phase integrity the system has the potential to replicate such an onset transient.
A robust speaker can handle along the lines of 100 watts music power and more like 10 watts continuous. So, this high power delivery is strictly in the realm of transients.
To that realm, the improvements brought by audio resistors, ultra capacitors and high purity coils and wire are also in the realm of transient fidelity. A speaker with schlock stuff will measure the same as with great stuff with a steady-state input signal.
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Thank You- TomHope you are well and enjoying this Fall season. Happy Listening!
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jon_5912
I forgot to add the Math;i = 66r = 4
v = ir = 264
w = 264x66 = 17,424
1Hp = 746 watts
66 (A)mps into 4 Ohms = is 23.35 Hp.
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Pardon me Jay, I neglected to mention that phase characteristics in the speaker also influence amp performance. Phase lead and lag illustrate reactive characteristics of the load, which are far more difficult for an amp to drive than a purely resistive load. Thiel speakers do a good job of presenting a non-reactive resistive load which allows the amp its best shot of capably driving that load. So, even though Thiel impedance is very low, requiring lots of current, at least the load is fairly benign.
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tomthiel
Thank You for your continued contributions to this thread and the larger cause at hand. How are you enjoying your re-vamped Classe' amps?
Happy Listening!
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Jay - the Classe amps tell a long story. The tech is in some kind of trouble and still has some of my gear. Classe had recapped one DR9 a year ago. The new guy replaced and bypassed some signal path caps to match our plan for the second DR9. We also recapped and bypassed the DR6 preamp, so the "new" sound results from the combination.
It sounds very good - the "dark" sound of the DR9 seems to have lifted - more incisive and articulate which is what I need for both recording and XO hotrod evaluations. The second DR9 is still in the shop for its total recapping / bypassing. April 11th: " a few days to get parts and a week to do the job." Very long week. Not yet, maybe soon.
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tomthiel
Oh my, looks like trouble indeed. Hope this tech becomes a "stand-up" Guy and finishes the job as previously arranged. If not, feel free to post as much information as you wish to warn the other Classe' owners out there.Keep us posted.
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Hi All,
I posted earlier about a treble harshness with my Thiel CS5's. I redid the mirror along the wall test and installed a DIY sound absorber which seems to to have done the trick. The harshness is pretty much gone except for the most badly recorded albums.
Since the sound absorber journey, I acquired a Conrad Johnson Premier 17LS-2 preamp. The CJ replaces a PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium and I have been switching between the two preamps.
In my system, both are good. I think if one wants to concentrate on the main vocal in a mix, the PL is probably a bit better, because it allows you to hear deep into the vocal. Overall, the PL provides a bit more organic bass. The CJ is more nuanced with a better sound stage and, perhaps most importantly, is more musical to my ear than the PL. This may be because of how the leading edges of notes are produced with the CJ. Also, the CJ has a better presence than the PL at lower volume levels.
Another change I have just made is to replace the Coda CS with a McCormack DNA-500. The DNA-50 sounds warmer, which is a matter of personal preference, and provides more textural detail to the music. At higher volumes the Coda could begin to sound a bit metallic and, I guess, compressed. The DNA-500 on the other hand, stays well composed regardless of the volume and never gets "edgy".
I know the DNA-500 is the better amp for my Thiels in my system. I keep changing out the two preamps and keep coming back to the CJ. The Coda CS and PL were good, but the CJ and DNA-500 are better because that combo is warmer and more nuanced with no solid state glare.
So I am a happy camper for now. My future plans are going to be around more experimentation with preamps and or replacing my Hegel HD20 DAC.
Any suggestions?
Thanks for listening!
Dsper
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