Prof - my notes indicate there were about 1000 pair of 3.7s and 1500 pair of 2.7s sold. I'll comment further when I find time.
Wow, somehow that strikes me as surprisingly lower than I expected for the 3.7, and higher for the 2.7.
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,684 responses Add your response
Tom, your post suggests all SE versions are FST. On the ‘net, I found a pic of an SE crossover that looks Lex-ish (but with the Clarity SAs) and a video of Gary Dayton showing an SE crossover that looks neither Lex or FST. I suppose there are one or two prototype SEs with Lex boards? I wonder if the quality of the FSTs slipped over the years. Perhaps they started as “Lex equivalent” but downgraded parts quality with time? I imagine all FSTs are on printed circuit boards but perhaps they initially used MKP caps and had better quality coils. The seller of my SEs claimed they were built in 2012, which is credible given the late serial numbers. That is 3 years after JT passed and the year Thiel Audio was sold. Maybe the downgrade in parts quality is restricted to late pairs? Regardless, the CS2.4 has superb drivers and a quality cabinet. In my experience, a crossover upgrade yields a speaker that is near SOTA other than bass extension and definition. That’s the best you can ask for anywhere near this price level. |
Jafant, Tom Thiel, et al. Thought the following might be interesting. I purchased my CS 2.4 speakers from Audio Consultants in April of 2011. They were a pre-owned pair (serial# 2951, 2952) and at time of purchase there were 5 years left on the transferable 10 year warranty. Following are links to five Thiel CS 2.4 reviews (all rave reviews by the way) in more or less chronological order. Where discernable, I’ve listed the serial numbers related to each review. Soundstage Nov 2003 – Marc Mickelson … Serial Number N/A 6 Moons Jan 2004 – John Potis … Serial Numbers 903, 904 Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity Jul 2004 – Jon E Johnson, Jr … Serial Numbers 413, 414 https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_3/thiel-cs-24-speakers-7-2003.html Stereophile Nov 2005 – Wes Phillips … Serial Numbers 1991, 1992 https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/1105thiel/index.html Audio Perfectionist Journal #13 2005 – Shane Buettner … Serial Number N/A https://www.vandersteen.com/media/files/APJ%20Files/APJ13_Proof.pdf (note that review begins on page 19) |
JA - what I meant to say is that the transition from Lex to FST occurred somewhere around the #225 mark because I heard of a 215-16 Lex pair and a 235-6 FST pair. All the FST parts are made in China, on glass boards with CYC parts. We have previously addressed the particulars; I consider those FST boards a level down from Lexington boards. |
tomthiel Thank You for the Middle Crossing update. I know that you will find another space for your Musical instruments and Audio businesses. It is refreshing to read that S/N 220-230 possibly have the FST/China XO. Perhaps my pair side-stepped this issue? The CS 2.4 model is a darling/honey of a loudspeaker to my ears. I can hardly await to see how your updated XO interpretation turns out! When you you travel to Virginia? Happy Listening! |
This makes me wonder if a cheap crossover is why I never warmed up to my MCS1. I bought it off Amazon in 2012 or later during the brief time Thiel was on Amazon. I love my 2 2s and 3.7s but I never found the MCS1 to be on the same level. I bought it as a center channel for movies and I don't really watch that many movies so that's part of it. It could just be that I typically ran it off of an HT receiver but I ran my 2 2s off of one and still found them great. hmmm. |
All - regarding CS2.4 production variants - my data is pretty sketchy. (It helps my puzzle-solving if you guys state your serial numbers if you can.) They ran from 2003 to 2012 when replaced by the 2.7. I have records of only 1000 pair, which interests me greatly. The 2.4 seems to be a bit of a audiophile darling, yet its sales are tied for lowest of any model. The SE may add 100 pair (or be included in the 1000 count.) It seems the progression from Lexington to FST / China is around sn 220 - 230. My personal experience along with other collaborators on this forum suggests that transition may partly account for the low sales volume. Reviewers and early enthusiasts would all have experienced the original Lexington units. The later (post 230) units to my ear lack the finesse, delicacy and ease of the originals. I wonder out loud if that discontinuity amounted to anything in the marketplace. It also seems that offshore sales were accounting for an increasing share of sales and that the USA market may have suffered via other non-product problems. Just guessing. Rob says that Jim OK'd the FST production. But there are also documented stories of heated disagreements between Jim and Kathy as Marketing Director regarding various issues in that time-frame of the 2.4. Tim Tipton (long-term purchasing manager) ventured that Jim's ear was slipping. Cancer doesn't help bodily system performance. The bottom line is that there is lots of room for improvement in the CS2.4 and with the considerable work already done on it and its forebearer the CS2.2, I suspect those 2.4 owners may be in for a sonic uplift if they so wish. |
cargen - you speculated about using some Thiel PXOs on other subwoofers. Here are my thoughts. Thiel's passive crossover matches the characteristics of the two speakers (sub and main), providing real,engineered rolloff slopes just like the subs were in the full-range speaker. They work very well for that intended use and in the case of the 5-channel PXO5, all the channels are integrated with the low bass. So using PXOs with different drivers with different characteristics than specified by their design would not work well. The magic is that a real crossover is provided because the characteristics of the woofer and main speaker are known and taken into account. |
Hi Guys - I'll swing back and answer some loose threads as I find time. Last night I locked the door on my vacated Middle Crossing shop and studio. The building was sold and I closed shop on very short notice, selling 30 tons of wood and some tools and equipment, and storing way too much stuff for further preparation for sale later this summer. Big trip. Looking forward to a simpler life focused around musical instruments and audio. Still a long way to go before the external premises are clear and the excess is sold. Then there's the challenge of finding new space - real estate is extremely thin here in this small, safe, rural New England town where everyone from the city with sufficient means seems to want to relocate. Challenges keep us young, right? |
@beetlemaniaSome of you may recall my recent posts where I expressed a desire for a more live presence with my Thiel CS5i's. I also thought about beatlemania's post about the transparency of Thiels in general because I was starting to come to the opposite conclusion after having owned 3.6's and now 5i's. It was/is getting to the point of contemplating a change to a more efficient speaker and a tube amp. My experience with the CS5i's has been that better transports and DACs can provide more detail which gets one closer to better transparency/live presence. I had been researching DACs in the $5000 range as a possible improvement for quite some time but thought I would try what the $1000 price point was all about. The $899 Soekris was a step in the right direction as I have chronicled in an earlier post. Anyway, I had been reading about the Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC and noticed that they were starting to come up on the used market as folks with deeper pockets than mine have moved on to the new Mystique EVO. I acquired a V3 earlier this week and am astounded at the improvement I am hearing from the CS5i's. The bass is deeper, the dynamics are better, and soundstage and imaging have improved. I can look at a speaker and "see" an instrument in front of the speaker which has never happened before. I believe I am hearing background noises that I could not hear before. In general the sound is more fleshed out. To tie this all together, I think beetlemania may be right about transparency. My caveat would be that the old comment that Thiels require good (probably higher priced) amplification to sound their best also extends to requiring a higher quality source. Anyway, the move to a more efficient speaker is now on hold for a bit while I listen to the Mystique settle in. Thanks for listening, Dsper |
Hi from the UK... I have owned by Thiel 2.4s for about 8 years. System is: LP12, Ittok, Kore, Cirkus, RigB Audio Technical 150Sa etc... Consonance Ref 2.2 CD player Croft Micro25R pre (Valves) Musical Fidelity 550K power amps (that have been heavily modified with new PSU, masses of capacitors etc... All done by John Sampson who was the UK Musical Fidelity Service Manager for years). They were 500w pc into 8 ohms, 900w into 4 ohms but are way past that now. All cables from "The Missing Link". UK based, Mark hand makes truly special cables. Thiel 2.4 (upgraded to SE spec thanks to Rob) Question to the forum is where next... I love the music my system plays but am always looking for the 'what next'.. Ideas would be really appreciated |
@jafant I would be very surprised if your late production SEs did not have the FST boards. Early units might have Lexington boards, Rob Gillum might be the only person who knows. Read the following knowing that I am an insane person: If you’re going to upgrade FST boards, my advice is pretty much replace everything. Well, on an extreme budget you might just upgrade the resistors to Mills. But the parts quality is disappointing on the FSTs. The Clarity SAs are good but even those are outpaced by the newer CSAs. For units with Lexington boards, the parts quality is higher (those Clarity coax feed caps are the best OEM coax feeds regardless of standard or SE version, or Lexington or FST). On a budget, you might just upgrade the resistors and feed caps. Standard CS2.4 owners with Lexington boards could have something notably better than the SE version with just those “simple” changes. Even reaching higher, there are several coils and a cap or three that are worth salvaging. My extreme makeover has 3/5 coils and one bypass cap that are equivalent to Lexington. But I retained nothing whatsoever from the FST boards, not even the hookup wire and binding posts. |
Hi Jafant, It appears you misread my post. I vastly prefer my Tom Thiel designed boards over the FSTs. And it’s been about 15 years since I’ve heard the 2.4s with Lexington boards but, other than the Clarity SAs in the coax feeds, I would take the Lexington over FST on parts quality. In addition to the loose coil windings, the FST had polyester caps rather than polypropylene. Regardless of that, I consider Thiels to be transparent in general. |
Just to clarify for our readers - Beetle's 2.4SEs were late production with FST crossovers which proved to be inferior in some ways to the earlier Lexington units. The coils were not well wound and the wire is CDA102, one step down from Thiel's traditional CDA101 best of form. Otherwise, the FST passive components were CYC clones of the usual best of form units that Thiel had used. I have heard conflicting reports of when and how these Chinese units came about, but my direct comparison between FST and Thiel came out with Thiel sounding smoother, more open and relaxed and delicate, with the FST sounding more etched, crisp and clear. Although both presentations were valid, they did not produce a similar voice.; I would not judge them as from the same designer. My preference is for the original Thiel presentation as more musically enjoyable than the FST presentation. YMMV. |
mrpostfire - I concur with beetlemaina, and can add a few further thoughts. I’ve been critically assessing Thiel speakers for future improvement - so I’ve developed a pretty good handle on them recently, additional to my lived experience in Thiel’s first 20 years and professional use of CS2.2s until the present. Rather than speculating on what you might be hearing, I’ll ask a question. Have you tried to isolate your problem sound to one speaker and/or one driver? It is possible that a voice coil might be slipping on its former. When that happens via over-work / heat, there is a raspy, hazy noise both from the physical motion of the voice coil as well as the large non-linearities of the diaphragm motion vs the input signal. I ask in order to differentiate between a problem and a general observation of "less black". Please supply more information because your commentt runs contrary to the general assessment of Thiel speakers and my experience relative to many peer brands. |
Perhaps semantics but I think of electronics responsible for “black backgrounds”. I suppose the analog in the speaker realm is “transparency”. IMO, Thiels are generally very transparent. That was one of the strengths of my 1.6s. That said, I heard a subtle “glassy” quality in the midrange when I bought my 2.4SEs in 2018. It might have been the FST-sourced crossovers (lower quality parts compared to crossovers built at the Lexington shop) or, maybe, damaged resistors (the OEM resistors showed evidence of overheating when I replaced them). That quality was mostly, if not completely, remedied by the Mills resistors. And my final boards not only have zero trace of that anomaly but the transparency is topshelf, equivalent to the very be$t speakers I’ve heard. It could be that your 2.4s are more revealing flaws in your electronics rather than the other way around. |
A pair of Thiel Passive Crossover PX05's are listed on Canuck <https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649715447-theil-passive-crossover-px05-pair/?utm_campaign=sa...> The ad describes these PX05's as specifically configured for Thiel 3.7's. I downloaded the manual for the PX05. I realize the intent of the PX05 is for use with Thiel subwoofers. My question is: Would there be any benefit of these PX05's interfaced instead with a pair of NOn-Thiel SVS SB 16 Ultra subwoofers? The rest of my existing system is: Thiel CS 3.7's - left + right 5- Thiel PowerPoint 1.2's - center, surround, rear 4 - Thiel PowerPlane 1.2s - Atmos ceiling Anthem AVM-60 PrePro Conrad Johnson Premier 17 LS2 Stereo Preamp Conrad Johnson 350SA Amplifier Anthem A-5 amplifiers for surround + Atmos ceiling speakers. Chris |
I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this. Thiels are sometimes described as very lively speakers. I would characterize my 2.4s as sounding lively. Sometimes I wonder if they are too lively. That is I can't get the black background feel of other speakers. I have no discernible buzz, hum, noise or anything of the sort when music not played. But when music is played, the overall presentation is lively which gives the impression that the background is not black as in other speakers. Anyone notice the same? |
Hi @dsper, My suggestion to flip the fuse direction/orientation is a simple step and a number of listeners note that one direction is better sounding than the other. I'm sure you're aware that some consider upgrade fuses utter nonsense. So be it. I've have heard definite improvement with Synergistic Research fuses in my audio system. Charles |
