Thiel Owners

Remember that audio research d-110 I inquired about a while back? Well the guy got it restored and is driving his thiel 3.6’s with it.

I have a pair of Cs 1.5 s that have been great. really don’t have a room to use them now after downsizing and am looking to sell them to someone who will appreciate them. They are great speakers that I’ve had at least 18 - 20 years.  They were fronts for a surround sound thru Rotel  processor!

@sdecker , your post got me to thinking past memory. I went back and looked at measurements for the other loudspeaker brands you mentioned. Of the ones I could find such measurements for, one brand surprised me for it's step response, though there were real problems elsewhere, the time response for the Zu's were  better than I recalled. 

rwscott

Good to see you here. I hope that the CS 1.5 loudspeakers find the next good home.

Happy Listening!

@unsound  I'm not sure why any single-driver cone speaker wouldn't deliver reasonably accurate step and impulse response.  Sure, they may be compromised by dispersion, frequency extremes, SPL limitations, but so long as they're free from a crossover and, ideally, sealed or open-baffle (ie no port tuning), I see no reason for them not to mirror the amplifier's time response within the limits of their motor and diaphragm assembly.
   I see why large single-panel planar speakers may be compromised as you describe.
   Headphones are apples and oranges to me.  Two very different and equally valid listening experiences, especially with the relatively recent advancements of higher-end headphones and dedicated amps.  YMMV.  My only point was that nearly all headphones are perfectly time- and phase-coherent, with none of the compromises required by single-driver  or Thiel-like multi-way speakers.

So here’s the thing if I get the cs 7 my 3.6 have to go. Guy said they’d give 500 on trade in for the 3.6z with me selling my car. I’d be able to do this.

Classe model 25 should work on the 7 after all I see videos of them being used on apogees

@sdecker , You’re point is well taken , which is why I went back to check again. I wasn’t sure how  the whizzer’s were implemented. In the case of the Tannony’s there are indeed  cross-overs, they’re not 1st order and the step responses clearly show they aren’t time coherent.

@thoft, the 3.6’s are probably already too big for your room, I think the 7’s (as good as they are) output, will overwhelm your room. If the 3.6’s are in any kind of decent shape, should garner well over that figure on the open market.
This all seems akin to one living in an apartment, struggling to feed themselves; considering buying a horse as a house pet.

I mean I’m not really struggling on anything. I am comfortably keeping up with priorities but yes I know the 7’s would overwhelm l but man the chance to get them now not knowing when a pair could pop up next...

FWIW - there about 1000 pair of 7s and 2500 pair of 7.2s, compared with 3000 pair of 3.6s.

Do you know how many CS6s?

1000 pair. Note these numbers are informal, compiled from Rob and highest observed serial numbers. They cross-check pretty well with other data streams and I update them with new information.

tomthiel
Thank You for running down the numbers for models CS7, 7.2 and 3.6 loudspeakers. I hope that you are well and ready for the Spring season.

Happy Listening!

I just saw a pair of cs7’s pop up for sale. I’ve always wanted a pair if cs7.2’s. How big of a difference is there between the cs7’s and the cs7.2? I currently own cs2.3’s. I’m assuming the cs7’s are a big step up from the cs2.3?

Pretty big. I’m getting bigger amps right now to prep for them...

" I just saw a pair of cs7’s pop up for sale. I’ve always wanted a pair if cs7.2’s. How big of a difference is there between the cs7’s and the cs7.2? I currently own cs2.3’s. I’m assuming the cs7’s are a big step up from the cs2.3?"   

When I had my 2.3s, I upgraded to 7.2s and then sold them and bought 3.7s.  This will give some indication of the differences between the 7s and 7.2s - http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/revequip/thiel_cs72.htm#:~:text=One%20of%20the%20primary%20differen...

I know that Thiel did offer upgrade kits for the 7s to make them into 7.2s.  Not sure if Coherent Source has those - would be a question for Rob.  Here's a thread about the upgrade kit (I'm sure there are other references) - .https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/upgrade-thiel-7-s-to-7-2-s

Thanks for the response, that pretty much answers my question. I think I will stick with my 2.3’s for now. I am currently running a Primaluna tube preamp through a Belles150 a hot rod. Was getting the urge to move up the Belles line of amplifiers to see what my system is capable of. Don’t get me wrong, the hot rod sounds amazing but you know how it goes. I had my sights set on the new virtuoso, when the Cs7’s popped up and got me thinking. I could probably buy the Cs7’s and a used amp for the same or less than the Virtuoso.  Was wondering what would be the bigger step up.

bellesfan

Welcome! Good to see you here. Equally, good to read that there is another fan of the CS 2.3 loudspeaker. Which cables/power cords are in your system?

Happy Listening!

" Thanks for the response, that pretty much answers my question. I think I will stick with my 2.3’s for now."

There's also a post of mine here from December 3, 2019 - https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/thiel-owners-2?page=143

Later 2.3s, I believe right before the introduction of the 2.4s had vented tweeters as noted in the above post.

So I’ve been thinking. With the purchase of the amps it would be hard to squeeze in the 7’s. Think I should just stick with what I have for now and just save for 3.7 or the 7.2. 7.2 might be better cause of the mineral polymer baffle instead of straight cement.

Jafant,

I’m running Acoustic Zen Wow interconnects and DH labs Q10 speaker cables. Haven’t invested in power cables as of yet. Just added the Primaluna to the system a couple years ago when I moved into a bigger house with a room big enough to support serious listening. For about 17 plus years I was running my Shanling tube cd player straight into the Belles 150a hot rod, using the preamp in the Shanling. The improvements from adding the Primaluna were so great ,I started wondering what a better amp would do. 

It’s funny. I go around listening to thes epsekaers people have for sale. Speakers that cost more than mine even and they all just miss something these thiels have. How real they sound. How they make the voices sound like they’re singing in the same room as you. Only the Ar9, certain kef models, dahlquist, vandersteen, and sonus faber even get close. None match the coherency the thiels have at all except for the vandersteen. Obviously I’m 
missing a few others but those are the speakers whose sound I can remember very well and is familiar with.

bellesfan,
Excellent! Good to read that Acoustic Zen (AZ) and DH Labs are a sonic match w/ Thiel loudspeakers. The Shanling is a fine spinner as well.Is this company still in business?Your ears do not deceive. A Pre-Amp, is the heart of any Audio system.Yes, an Integrated amp counts as well.
Happy Listening!

bellesfan,
2nd Note;You bring up an excellent point regarding Power Cord(s). Trust your own ears. Quite often, there is not any need to change out PC from stock.AYRE and Belles qualify in this category. Not sure about Primaluna?

Happy Listening!

" So I’ve been thinking. With the purchase of the amps it would be hard to squeeze in the 7’s. Think I should just stick with what I have for now and just save for 3.7 or the 7.2. 7.2 might be better cause of the mineral polymer baffle instead of straight cement."

The 7.2s are harder to drive than the 3.7s and of course are not as efficient (7.2s were tested by a magazine at 85.5 and 3.7s were tested at 90.7).  Remember, that some 7.2s could be upgraded 7s (and I'm not sure if all 7.2s had the composite baffle or early ones had the concrete one).  The concrete baffle weighs a bit more (I think about 15pounds or so per speaker so it is about 155 lbs vs 170).

The 7.2s will play a bit lower than the 3.7s (but not tons, depending on the room).  They sound different.  I'd think that some people heavy into classical music could prefer the 7.2s but the 3.7s are smoother.

@thoft  as your comment above is aligned with my recent comments of perhaps finally hearing the reality of coherence for the first time in 20 years of Thiel ownership, I'll of course throw in my 2 cents worth with a long essay :-|

I've been going to the big audio shows annually (Montreal in recent years), auditioning in the better brick-and-mortar stores to assess the latest and greatest at all price points and design approaches.  All components, but ultimately the speakers used are the 'gatekeepers.'

After all these years I can recognize great sound, not-so-great sound, and a very 'different' sound.  And hear the best soundstaging and clarity, primarily, that exceed what I'm used to at home.  But every time I return home with a weekend of high-end audio fresh in my head, there's a certain 'rightness' to the sound in my room that more than makes up for the improved specific attributes of various systems I heard at shows or showrooms.  I can focus on the attributes my rig doesn't do as well as the uber-systems, but that doesn't alter the listening satisfaction.

This does prevent major upgrade fever, and also makes it very clear when I do make a tweak for the better.  Some of this is long-term familiarity with my electronics and room acoustic, but from recent posts, I think a lot has to do with my 2.4s presenting my audio signals out of the power amp more realistically than the mostly non-coherent speakers I'd been auditioning.  IOW I'm not missing the coherence when listening to other speakers, but relaxing back into it when I return to coherence.  

But this seems a long-term thing.  I don't recall the Thiel or Vandersteen or Zu rooms sounding 'relaxed' or even that great, but I also don't hear this coherence 'difference' when comparing speakers back and forth.

Thoft,

I agree with you. When I visit the audio stores, I rarely hear Speakers that I like as much as Thiels. It just seems something is missing. I have listen to some really high-end, high dollar, systems locally and was thinking to myself “my system sounds better“. 
Jafant,
when I moved into my new house, I had a dedicated 20 amp line installed just for the power amp\stereo system. I run the Belles straight into the wall, and the rest of the system through a Panamax power conditioner. The Shandling has a pretty decent power cord, and I ended up with a spare one that I use on the Primaluna. Would like to eventually play with power cords to see if they make a difference in my system.

happy listening 

bellesfan
Absolutely! I have read about Shandling over the years and most fans stay with the stock PC. This is a testament to quality engineering.A dedicated line certainly helps as does a conditioner/re-generator (much will depend on your locale).  Reading this thread all of the way through,
you will discover, that  I am the first to stand up for cables/cords.By all means, experiment and have fun,  in the process!
Happy Listening!

The biggest improvement to my system has been moving into a new room. We have a very large open basement and I made a theater room at one end. The Thiels are 13 feet apart, 3 feet from the rear walls, and 16 feet from my listening seat. The sound stage and imaging is glorious. The vocals are dead center, very holographic, and up into the ceiling at times. A lot of the sound stage improvements also come from the addition of the preamp, and the CIFTE NOS tubes I installed. There is no comparison to the old corner of the basement in my old 900 square-foot house where the speakers were crammed up against the wall and my listening chair was literally touching the furnace. Not ideal by any means, but I made the best of it.

happy listening

Jafant,

now that my system can breathe and function at its full potential, I can justify experimenting with tweaks. In my old house it just didn’t make sense. Perhaps you could make some suggestions to steer me in the right direction, as I am a novice audiophile. As much as I love my Belles hot rod, I have been thinking an upgrade in my amp would make the most sense. If I do upgrade, a power cord would be a must. Thanks,  happy listening. 

Thiel 3.6 is 86 db 2.5 ohm minimum. Thiel 7.2 is 86 db 3 ohm minimum. That’s from this little dealer book one shop would’ve gotten from thiel

@bellesfan, If I may be so bold to recommend (and I offer this without knowing all room dimensions) that you try moving you speakers 3’ in so that the centers are 10’ apart, and moving the speakers further out from the wall behind the speakers so that the speakers are 10’ from your listening position. This could remove more of the sound from the room, providing a greater degree of direct listening, while maintaining ideal driver integration.

bellesfan
I would venture to say that if you enjoy the Belles house-sound, then, move up the amp chain. On the other hand, if you enjoy the Primaluna house -sound, then, add one of its amp to your system.Best practice is to visit local dealers/retailers to demo competition products.I practiced this very advice 10 years prior to assembling my Reference system. It is an incredible Audio journey. Fun too!

Happy Listening!

Bellesfan
I have a Belles Ref 150a V2 on my Thiel 2.4's. I have a wireworld silver electra 5.2 power cord on it. It was a nice noticeable improvement. I paid about 250.00 for a used one. It might be worth trying a cord or two. Two others that were on my radar when I got this one was JPS Labs Power+, Triode Wire Labs 7 +. 

Jafant,
the local dealer that sold me my Belles, Shanling, and Primaluna, let me audition the Primaluna Dialogue HP (high power) integrated at home before I pulled the trigger. It’s a killer tube amp, but I liked the solid state Belles better with the Thiels.  Was looking for a 150 reference or an SA100 when I discovered John at Audio Connection. He pretty much has me talked into a Virtuoso. We’ll see what happens.  

I will have to say. Even with the largely imperfect set up mine is. It does do some trippy stuff. Stuff will sound like it’s coming from behind or right to the side of me. Etc etc. 

Unsound,
thanks for the advice. I did just spend a bunch of time adjusting speaker placement. Its amazing what a 1/4 inch of toe in will do. To be accurate, if you are measuring from the center of drivers, the speakers are 14’ apart.  My room is dual purpose, 2ch and theater. That being said, there is a little wiggle room to move in the direction you recommend. I’ll give it a try. I didn’t mention, the left speaker is only 2 feet from the side wall, and there is no wall near right speaker.Thanks 

Marqmike,
thanks for the heads up, I’ll check out those power cords. That’s a nice sounding amp. Years ago when the first 150 reference came out, I did get to hear it and compare it to the hot rod. I immediately heard the difference. I haven’t been able to hear anything else from Belles since then because local shop stopped carrying the products. Thanks 

marqmike
Good to see you again. Thank You for chiming in to assist bellesfan.You own a killer speaker in the CS 2.4 model.I enjoy a Wireworld Silver Star 5.2 HDMI in my tv/video set up.If you have an opportunity, upgrade to the Silver Electra 7 PC.
Happy Listening!

@bellesfan, Being so close to a wall is all the more reason to move them in closer, which should also make for a more solidly imagining center fill. At some point, you might want to consider some absorptive room treatment on the close side wall.

I contacted Rob at Coherent Source and he no longer has upgrade kits for cs7’s to 7.2. He also informed me that the coax drivers in the 2.3s were upgraded near the serial number 4567. The upgraded one has two magnets. My question to those in the know, what else besides the passive radiator and crossover was changed or upgraded in the 2.4? Can any improvements be made to the 2.3 ?
my serial number is 5313, so I already have the updated coax. Thanks, 
happy listening

bellesfan

Thank You for the CS7/7.2 update per Mr. Rob Gillum via CSS.

I suspect that the CS 2.4 has an updated cabinet with an Oval passive radiator. Outriggers to match. Possible newly designed crossover (XO)?

Regarding the CS 2.3, it is good to read that your pair has the upgraded Coax driver(s). I wonder if this model has Outriggers to match?

Happy Listening!

bellesfan

As above, try spacing the CS 2.3 10 feet apart instead of 13 feet.
Listen to the change for a few days and report back here for any sonic difference(s) noted.

Happy Listening!

@bellesfan  I still have my 2.3s and have been listening primarily to my 2.4s since 2006.  I can tell you despite the similar external appearance, there are MANY changes between the two speakers that make them very different.  Some tweaks may be made to the 2.3 XO, but you'd be nowhere near to a 2.4.  If you want the full list of changes I can PM you, but it might depress you...

I'm still going back and forth between the borrowed Bryston 4B3 and my CJ premier 12 tube monos (140w/side).

Basically the same impression every time.  The Bryston has a bit more grip from top to bottom, a bit more tonal precision and clarity (well...tough call about clarity...both sound clear, the Bryston just a little bit more informative).

But the CJ is no wilting wallflower tube amp.  It has at least as balls-to-the-wall energy and punch as the Bryston.  And it has that "breath of life" tonality, where instruments and voices sound more texturally filled out and present, airy and "there" like I'm seeing through the electronics to the real event.

My dream is to try something like the Conrad Johnson ART amplifiers (e.g. original ART 275W/side, or the new ART 300 monos or ART 150 stereo amp).  As I understand it those give the closest to the best of SS and the CJ sound.

I'm also currently playing with a JL Audio 110e subwoofer with my Thiel 2.7s.

Buried way back in this thread, 3 years ago, I was talking about integrating these subwoofers.  Yes they have actually been sitting around that long because THAT is how much I dislike subwoofers!  :-)

Anyway, it's getting interesting.  I've been unable, as was the case last time I tried. to fully keep the midrange and upper frequency character I love about the speakers when using the subwoofer.   I have a Dspeaker anti-mode I'm going to use today to see how that helps.

OK, sounds like you officially have a homework assignment. I was just listening last night, and decided not to move the speakers because I was very happy with the soundstage and imaging. But, I guess it can’t hurt to try. It may take me a few days, but I will report back what I find.
also, I do have some treatments on the wall and a very thick shag rug on top of the carpeted floor. Also, I believe the open rafters help break up the sound as well.
I do notice when I said closer to the speakers, the imaging is still good, but the realism is not as convincing.