Thanks gents.
Tom - that's so phenomenal...I figured from your handle that you'd been part of Thiel at some point, but wow - that's really great. Would love to learn more about the upgraded performance. How would you describe that performance? (I will indeed read further back in the thread...there's a lot there!)
My PP 1.2 LCRs...let's see. This is the second HT I've had them in (moved house some years back and took the whole set up with me). They're really remarkable. I've never really used them as 2-channel monitors because I've always had a separate, dedicated 2-channel rig elsewhere, so I can't comment on their performance as such. But, they provide an amazing HT experience. Crisp, clear dialog, reference levels but never an ounce of fatigue, great at localizing sound when called for in the soundtrack, great at blending/disappearing when a broad soundstage is called for, and of course take up no floor space and don't call attention to themselves on the ceiling above my display. I've had them in a wide, deep room, and currently in a narrower, shallower room. Nary a complaint. Paired with a James sub...can't recall the model, but a beast of a thing with I believe a 15" driver. Weighs a ton. Shakes the house.
In the 1st iteration and much of the 2nd iteration until recently, I drove the Thiels with a 7-channel Theta Dreadnaught (3 of the 200wpc modules, 2 of the 2x100 wpc modules) fed from an Integra pre-pro. The Theta is a monster, but we recently chose to rationalize and prioritize space and aesthetics in the room (I should probably list the Theta for sale). We're down to 3 sources (a TiVo, an AppleTV, and an Oppo UHD player) vs. 6 until recently, and...drum roll please...driving the speakers is a Marantz 8012 receiver.
This may cause outrage, or accusations of being deaf (possible), but, not only would I say that there's no compromise in the Marantz vs. the Theta + Integra, I would say it sounds *better* though in fairness the Marantz has a really great room correction system whereas the Integra had none. And, the Marantz has the latest codecs whereas the Integra did not. So, not entirely apples-apples, but there it is.
Better how? Dialog intelligibility is even stronger, and the sound seems warmer (though was never bright before, so maybe I just like warmer). It's also a simpler set up which helps the family...no triggers getting out of sync, fully up to date front end electronics, etc.
Now, the PP 1.2's are not the "legendarily difficult to drive" 3.6's, so maybe that's why they play so nicely with the Marantz. But in a lot of ways they're my favorites precisely because they're so great but essentially invisible. |
Anthony - You would be well served to survey this long thread for background. The short answer is that I spent a chunk of my life co-developing Thiel Audio, and I want the tens of thousands of supporters to have a better option than jumping ship after the company's demise. I am developing XO hot-rod kits for select models which will upgrade their performance beyond original while replacing the age-sensitive electrolytic caps with permanent foil types. It's a labor of love and this group is performing various teaching, learning and beta-test functions.
I solicit your observations and input regarding your PP1.2 LCRs.
Welcome aboard.
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anthonymoody
Welcome! aboard. Good to see that you found us here. I believe that you will find this thread helpful and informative. There are a few gentlemen who own the 3.6 loudspeaker and other vintage Thiel models. I look forward in reading more about your Audio journey, musical tastes and system.
Happy Listening!
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jafant - thanks for inviting me over from AVS
rosami - I echo your comment about what I've found in this thread, scanning back just a few pages. Great people, great info! As to your comment about your amp being "only" X watts...I have come to agree that quality can easily trump quantity. In my 2 channel set up, I drive KEF Reference 3's with a Pass Labs INT-60 which is "only" 60W into 8-ohms, the first 30 of which are Class A. Lemme tell you, the sound is extraordinary, and capable of volume far beyond levels I enjoy listening!
Tomthiel/folks in general - I see a lot of posts about changing the crossover in the 3.6's, but haven't found a post detailing how and why doing so is better..? Not arguing the point, just asking as a new guy. Please be gentle :)
In one theater I use a pair of 3.6's, the larger center...can't recall the model...MCS1? and 4 Powerplane 1.2s, all driven by Krell.
In another, I use 3 PowerPoint 1.2's for L/C/R, and 4 Powerplane 1.2s. I'll refrain, for the moment, of saying what I use to drive them, though the answer may surprise and anger people :D
Anyway, would be interested to hear (ha!) what the upgrades might yield. |
junzhang10
A very nice collection of SACDs. I own about 200 and a mix of Classical, Jazz and Rock. Happy Listening!
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I caution those that plan to use Thiel floor standers for nearfield listening. All Thiel floor standers need at least 8' from speaker to listener for proper driver integration and ergo time coherence, a classic Thiel hallmark. |
Classical music and chamber music. I have more than 1000 SACDs combined with Netflix 5.1 movies. I am using three thiel 2.2 for the main and two .5 for the rear. Ideal would be five Thiel 2.2s for the complete SACD 5.0 system. But nothing is perfect in real world. So i can live with current setting.
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Bill - I evaluated and graded the models in context of my XO upgrade project. For starters, all the products are worthy; each was Thiel's best work at any point in time. However, some were more successful or more fully realized than others. In general, the more recent products are better due to continual learning. I have chosen models that were technical and market winners. Generally, they are the most recent of each series-type. The technologies constantly evolved, plus more recent products usually have larger quantities and better spare parts availability. All that said, your biggest liability with low-count / older products is driver availability for repair. Check with Rob at CSS regarding driver availability before buying anything.
The 5, 6 and 7 series remain hypothetical in the upgrade project. The 5 has some interest, but
huge upgrade issues and small numbers. No interest expressed in the 6 or
7.2. The XO project is in its infancy, so we don't know what will
develop.
The x.7 series are most recent and parts are available; not many were sold. Best of form and possibly collectable.
In the 3- series, the model 3.6 was an all-time high seller with mature
technologies. The 3.5 has a strong following, but the drivers are no
longer available, so beware. Also, although the equalized bass is
sealed-box / low-order and natural sounding, its single driver configuration
restricts its output. So a modest room and listening levels are
required.
In the 2- series, the 2.4 is the darling. The 2.3 can be found cheap for
reasons including transitional technology. The 2.4 coax driver eclipsed
the performance and reliability of the 2.3 coax. The 2.4 is our first
upgrade hot-rod XO due to its larger numbers and greater finesse.
I am also addressing the 2.2 as a personal favorite of mine, and I have the final prototype pair.
In the 1- series, I have chosen the model 1.6 as the most mature of the series: best drivers, highest count, etc. Earlier 1.xs will work well and can often be found for pretty short money.
I am also addressing the PowerPoint 1.2 as a stunningly effective product with room to upgrade. Its niche was home theater, but I use it as studio monitors. Again, due to my personal appreciation and interest.
Similarly, I have the 02 final prototype pair and will upgrade it.
As a company, Thiel applied the same design goals to every product. The personality of each model is unchanged through its generations. We were definitely product / performance driven rather than market-responsive. Such an approach is unusual; it gives you, the user access to any and all models having essentially the same objectives, albeit with varying levels of success. Welcome to the journey.
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rosami - I cannot commit to a time-line because of managing multiple priorities. I anticipate having something for the 3.6 during 2019, but I can't really predict the future.
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@holco after you factor in extra shipping and VAT, maybe it wouldn’t be too much more to stretch for locally-sourced Path Audio resistors! They are said to be the very best available. |
thielrulesPRAT can also reference Pace-Rhythm-ATtack. Either interpretation is correct. Happy Listening!
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mr_bill
thosb, enjoys the CS 2.3 loudspeaker. Perhaps he will see this post and chime-in on its merits. Happy Listening!
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junzhang10
Nice matching of cables and power cords. I heard DH Labs earlier this year and enjoyed their presentation. Older Kimber is still very good as well.What kind of music/sacd do you like? Happy Listening!
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pops
Good to see you. Hope you are well and enjoying this Holiday season.
Happy Listening!
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rosami
Thank You for citing your cables. Agreed, the Naim DIN cables are very good as well as Nordost products. Either way, you cannot go wrong.Looking forward in reading more after you solve any pending system issue(s). Happy Listening!
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Thanks Beetlemania.
I have send Sonic Craft an email, with there shipping costs the 4 resistors will cost me about 70 Euros!!
Not only doubles the shipping the price off the 4 resistors but the total also triggers the import taxes and VAT:(
Hope they can give me a better shipping rate than the $17.50 |
jafant --
"Which brand(s) of cabling are you using in your set-up?"
Interconnects in Naim systems are pretty much limited to Naim cables due to the din connectors. I use their "standard" interconnects; there are higher-level Naim interconnects available (and custom Chord cables I think) but they're all very expensive individually and prohibitively expensive if I wanted to change all my interconnects. I've upgraded the standard Naim power cords and now use Shunyata Viper Zitrons and noticed significant improvement. My speaker cable is Naim NACA5; Naim specifies use of their speaker cable because Naim amps are designed to work with a specific load. I'd like to try different speaker cables and plan to give it a try, but only after I get my other system issues resolved. |
beetlemania -- It may be possible to use the Virtual Systems link in A'gon to post and update your progress; I'm not sure if there'd be any issues from a'gon though. |
tomthiel -- Thank you. I'm happy to hear that you're working on the modifications for the 3.6s and then plan to offer completed crossover boards through CSS. That's great news for the many CS3.6 owners.
Would you possibly be able to provide a rough estimate of when you think the crossovers would be available? |
thielrules
PRAT is "pace-rhythm-and timing"; it refers to a system that is fast and detailed, with precise stop-start timing of notes. Naim (and other brands) believes PRAT is an essential element of a good system, and put more weight on those aspects rather than the qualities that most audiophiles generally strive for - such as imaging/depth/etc. IMO, Naim's better amps do a better job of providing PRAT than the Bryston 7B STs that I previously owned.
I did try both parallel and series connections when connecting the Brystons to the Thiels; one did sound better - but don't remember which - but the better connection still was inferior to my current setup. |
I have used a link to my Google drive to display any documents or pictures
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@mr_bill All time best Thiels are 7.2, 3.7, and, maybe 5. What is your budget? Keep in mind that Tom Thiel is planning upgrades for crossovers of many models, including 2.4 and 3.6. Could get a superb, updated Thiel at a great price (ie, used speaker plus upgrade kit, tbd). |
I am gathering the parts to start the 2.4 upgrade in earnest, including most caps, coils, and board from Tom Thiel. I plan to post a journal of the process, including pics. I don’t see a way to include pics on Audiogon, though. I might use audioasylum to host those, if not the whole thing. Anyone here have a better idea of how to keep it on a’gon but include pics? |
Kimber 8TC is killer cable and is a great match for Thiel in my experience. Enjoy! |
I am using Kimber 8TC for Main, 4TC for rear and center. DH Labs Silver Sonic IC. I got a
Sony ES TA-P9000ES 1st but later run directly from OPPO to Amp. Amazing sound. I combined HT and SACD system into one. For 2 channel system, it is very hard to position a pair of speaker. For SACD multi-channel. Just draw a circle and use angle to measure the speaker position, super easy, esp if you have five identical speakers.
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mr_bill
Welcome back. I can speak to the effect of the CS 1.6 , CS 2.4 , CS 2.7 and CS 3.7 models. The CS 1.6 is a nice 2-way speaker for the casual listener in a small to medium sized room. A subwoofer will compliment this model nicely if you want a little more low-end response. Great speaker for a near-field application as well. Next, the CS 2.4 is a sweet spot and honey of a loudspeaker to boot. There are several pairs now on eBay. An outstanding 3-way, IMO. Models CS 2.7 and CS 3.7 were Mr. Jim Thiel's last design which featured a modern coaxial and wavy - appearanced drivers. To date, I still wonder the number of pairs built for each loudspeaker. All models feature beautiful and well braced cabinets, sloped baffles, for optimum performance. And do they ever deliver the musical goods!I cannot speak to the CS 1.5 , 2.3 nor 3.6 models. I want to report that the CS 2.2 and CS 2.3 are represented somewhere within this thread. Check out Audio Asylum and AVS Forum, as there are a few owners across those sites. If you have not done so, read this thread starting with post #1 to the present. An incredible amount of information is available.
Happy Listening!
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Hi all you Thiel owners,
What are the best Thiel speakers to look for?
I know 3.7 is at top of list but where does the 2.3, 2.4, 1.5, 1.6 or, 3.6, 6 models fall into line?
Is a 2.4 better than a 2.3, 1.6 and 1.5?
Average or medium sized room.
Thanks, |
rosami
Which brand(s) of cabling are you using in your set-up?
Happy Listening!
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junzhang10
Good to see you here. Another interesting pairing w/ the Lexicon 512 / Thiel CS .5 combo. Which brand(s) of cabling are you using?
I look forward in reading more about you and your Audio journey. I am a SACD guy as well. Happy Listening!
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Rosami - the 3.6 is on my to-do hot-rod list. In fact, I have bought a pair and have created the upgrade schematic and layout. The timing issue summarizes as follows: I began work on this project Spring 2018 when 'New Thiel' closed down its business operations. Much research, preparations and preliminaries have been accomplished since that time. However, I am neither retired nor fully up-to-date in the audio world and considerable reading and interacting have been required.
I am presently building my PowerPoint and CS2.2 upgrades and Beetlemania's 2.4 kit of parts is on its way to him. We will digest what we learn and then I will approach the 3.6 next. I intend to develop and offer through Coherent Source Service an array of products for each product. The least invasive will be fully assembled crossovers which you will install in your cabinets, with local technical help if required.
Your situation illustrates our target customer: someone who loves his classic Thiels and hopes for a significant upgrade path which utilizes his extant, appreciated speakers. It is my considered hope that the upgraded 3.6 will please you very well.
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Also, did you notice a difference between parallel and serial bridged functioning?
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there was a lack of PRAT using the Bryston amp
Can you elaborate what this means, thanks.
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Yes I acquired a pair of Thiel CS.5 for $100, The owner is leaving for UK so I got this small cute. Will used it with my 2.2 to form a DSD 5.0 listening environment. I use a Lexicon 512 (aka Bryston 9B-ST) to drive them, using Oppo 205 as source player. Amazing sound and listening experience. For those only listening to 2 channel, you should try SACD multi-channel. Unmatched acoustic.
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rosami
Thank You for sharing your listening experience with the Bryston, Thiel, combination. Naim is a very fine brand and it is good to learn that there is a synergy on Thiel loudspeakers. You are the first contributor to post owning both brands that I have read across multiple Audio forums to date. If you find that replacing the driver(s) in your 3.6 model, I feel that you may be pleasantly surprised owning the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 speaker.
Much Thanks for the compliments on this thread. On board are DIY guys, Experts and Fans of our beloved speakers. There are many of you vintage owners as well. All of these factors do indeed make for a go-to reference experience. I look forward in reading more about your Audio journey and musical preferences.
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel & jafant:
I'm a relative newbie to forums (so please excuse any forum etiquette faux pas) but a long-time audiophile and Thiel enthusiast (33 years), first with 03a's and now with 3.6's (owned for 21 years).
I've read through many of the forum posts regarding the various Thiel crossover and component upgrades and am impressed with the technical knowledge and capabilities of many of the forum members. Unfortunately I'm not one of those members that possess the technical know-how to upgrade the crossovers in my 3.6s. (I have replaced the tweeters twice in 21 years and they're due again.) Since my 3.6s are in need of updating, I've been trying to decide what my next step should be -- whether l should audition other brands (which I'm reluctant to do) or figure out how to go about upgrading my 21-year-new CS 3.6s. My job would be a lot easier if I didn't think so highly of Thiel speakers!
jafant - you mentioned the availability of several pairs of 2.4s that you spotted, but I value the deep, tight, low-end capability (among many other traits) of my 3.6s (when driven with my Naim NAP300) and think I'd loose some of the low-end if I switched to the smaller 2.4s. The 2.7s look like they'd fit the bill but they're rarely available and I question the logic behind spending $10K on previously-owned speakers.. I spoke to Rob at CCS (very nice gentleman) and he indicated that he could rebuild my tweeters but that there is currently no upgrade for the 3.6 crossovers. I'm surprised by this since I understood that the 3.6s were among the best-selling Thiel speakers, so there are still many of them out there.
tomthiel - Is there a technical reason that there's no upgrade for the 3.6"s crossovers? How would one go about having 3.6 crossovers upgraded with out having to ship the speakers (which even Rob G. said was not a good idea) and not being able to do the work oneself? Is it worthwhile going through the effort and expense of this service and then just replacing parts rather than trying to upgrade the crossovers for better performance? Is replacing and updating the boards and components a job that a good local tech could do?
On a more general note -- I appreciate the positive, constructive and collaborative nature of the Thiel owners thread. This is a great group! Although based on my admittedly limited experience in reading of other audiophile forums, this group seems to be rather unique in that it's a forum for expressions of ideas among members, rather than the apparent battle of wits and unending string of derogatory comments that seem to pervade so many other A'gon forums. I hope this forum continues to be the go-to for Thiel owners!
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Since there have been lots of posts about using Bryston amps with Thiel speakers, I wanted to relay my experience.
I owned Bryston 7B ST monoblocks years ago and while I thought the Brystons did a good job driving my CS3.6s, I eventually became less satisfied with the match-up. IMO, there was a lack of PRAT using the Bryston amps, and I strongly value this criterion in a system. I eventually made the decision to purchase a Naim NAP300 and have never looked back. While the Naim amp is "only" rated at 90/w/ch into 8 ohms (150 into 4), this amp has no problem driving my 3.6s to levels louder than I want to listen, and in my opinion it exerts much better control than the Bryston 7B STs did. I know there have been several new series of Bryston amps since the ST version, and I understand that each generation had improved - however - I currently have no plans to upgrade my Naim components.
Bottom line -- I just wanted to put in a good word for the Thiel-Naim match-up and throw it out there as a possibility for consideration if you're considering updating your amp. |
Sonic Craft has all the values for CS2.4, either Mills or Vishay-Mills. I imagine they can ship to Europe
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Anybody know were I can order Mills 12W resistors?
I need 2x 4 Ohm and 2x 16 Ohm. |
tomthiel
Nice work to you and Beetle as well. Looking forward in reading about your test-build. Happy Listening!
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holco
nice work- Keep us posted on your project and its outcome sound-wise.
Happy Listening! |
serial numbers are unreadable :-(
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holco - your crossover seems to be a transitional form. (I am learning via reconstructing evidence.) Your coil values are those on the point to point Lex-built boards; and they are well-wound. Your caps are polypropylene which also points to Lex-built. It seems that Thiel-Lex must have transitioned to printed circuit boards, before eventually sending manufacture to China or otherwise diminishing parts quality. What are your serial numbers?
So, you have original / good-quality parts. Your coils are likely to be best of form; don't swap them unless you go to ERSE foils in the same gauge (DC resistance equivalent). Beetlemania's previous advice sounds good to me. He / we will know more soon. I am sending his parts kit today for a fairly full-bore upgrade test-build.
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ish_mail
Good to see you. Thank You for sharing a bit of Classe' and Thiel history.
Happy Listening!
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Thanks, Tom. I’ve never had an opportunity to listen to DR-series Classé amps. I think my first Classé amps were the first post-DR generation. They tilted to a warm sound. Maybe that agrees with your comments.
My current-generation CT-2300 has a much more transparent and neutral sound to my ear. From what little I understand, its design is fairly distinct from previous Classé series, including the DRs. |
ish - I can only provide informal remembrances. I would say there was virtually no connection to the B&W / political change. Thiel didn't pay much attention to that stuff. The dealers variously aligned with various manufacturers, but Thiel / Kathy didn't get involved with those dealer decisions unless asked for product-performance / sales success advice.
You're on the right track with product-performance drift. Dave Reich's DR-series amps were extraordinary in performance / price at their time. After he left, the amps kept the basic circuitry, but drifted into euphonic design territory, which didn't serve our needs as a manufacturer. We sought out very linear, neutral, high-performance gear. Bryston continually worked in that direction as well as being rugged and reliable. Jim used Bryston in the lab as his reality check against the big, expensive workhorses.
I personally never felt the Bryston gear provided the nuance and detail that our products could deliver. We used it at shows to demonstrate high performance / affordably priced capability. Reviews and rumor suggest that their present cubed series steps up their performance quite a bit. Good people, good gear.
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Hope everyone had a fine Thanksgiving (for all those here who celebrated that day yesterday or at all). ...
Here's another back story question: Early on, Thiel and Classé Audio seemed to have a close, if informal, relation in marketing and in-house systems (Classé and Thiel were marketed together mid-1990s at my local high-end salon, tomthiel still has legendary DR-era Classé amps). OTOH, the good fit between Thiel & Bryston has been well covered in recent posts. Over time, I heard fewer mentions from Thiel of pairings with Classé and more of pairings with Bryston (the two brands competed in roughly the same market niche). I speculated that this had something to do with Bowers & Wilkins purchase of Classé and their pairing at Abby Road Studios.
Question: How much was this shift at Thiel due to the B&W acquisition vs. technical differences in the evolution of the Classé and Bryston lines.
Side note: The Classé brand was eventually shut down by the conglomerate that purchased B&W. An attempt to resurrect Classé within the Sound United conglomerate is currently underway. In contrast to newThiel, new Classé is trying to retain most of its design team and culture. It will be interesting to see if the Classé reboot succeeds. |
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fitter468
good to see you again. Happy Listening! |
