Thiel Owners

esprits4s

Gary- please report back after consulting Rob on the prices of new vs. rebuild of those Woofers.  Happy Listening!

3090
Good to see you again. Thank You for the confirmation with Mr. Rob Gillum.  Happy Listening!

rosami

Off of the top of my head- it could have been the natural room acoustics, improper speaker placement or mis-matched Audio gear. Much would depend upon the length of time spent with the CS 3.7 loudspeaker, being unfamiliar to this model.

Happy Listening!

prof
Thank You for sharing that brief from (The) Audio Critic.

Happy Listening!

prof

I subscribed to the Audio Critic for several years, but quit around Issue 16. Pete was quite a character!

rosami,

I have extensive experience with the 3.7 and 2.7 and the older big CS6.

I am betting that the thinness you heard was very likely in the set up of the speakers.  As with many speakers, I found I could dial in the size and richness of vocal and instrumental tone and images via tweaking speaker positioning.  If placed closer together, or if toed in a bit too much,  it could squeeze the sonics down.  Once I had my 3.7s dialed in they sound was HUGE in every way, and extremely big and lush.

I originally thought I'd have to live with some level of disappointment with the smaller 2.7s due to a reduction of "fullness" and size to the sound.However, like the 3.7s, further experiments in placement in my room finally yeilded the type of big, rich presentation I was used to from the 3.7s.


Of course, I can't tell from my perspective that your 3.6s actually *don't* sound richer and less thin than the 3.7s.   It's been a long time since I heard them myself, though my memory is that they sounded thinner than what I got from the 3.7s.   But the 3.7s definitely sounded richer than the CS6s I had.

prof  —  jafant
i tried to contact jserio (selling the black 3.7s) through US AudioMart to ask some questions but he didn’t reply. I question whether the speakers are still for sale. 
One concern I have with the 3.7s (and also 2.7s) is that when I listened to the 3.7s -about 8 or so years ago in my room (a friend dropped them off to me to listen to) the midrange seemed somewhat thin sounding; with vocals it sounded like the body of the singers voice was not as full as in real life. I actually preferred the midrange of my 3.6s over the 3.7s (although I appreciated the improved detail, transparency and bottom end control of the 3.7s) so decided to stick with my 3.6s. But at the 21 year mark now with my 3.6s, I’ve been reconsidering the 3.7s, but my concern remains, especially since I’ve read that same comment in a couple of reviews and heard that same quality in a Bryson-based system (I have Naim electronics). 
I’d think the cause is the new aluminum mid/tweeter design. For any 3.7 or 2.7 owners following this, any comments would be appreciated. 

I was reading an old Audio Critic magazine pdf recently. For those that aren’t familiar, it was run by notoriously critical and cranky editor Peter Aczel who was devoted to repudiating "audiophile myths" via appeal to sound engineering and science.

He would publish sometimes his "White Hat/Black Hat" list of those in the field of audio, distinguishing between the "good guys" who were solid no b.s. engineers (and writers) and the "bad guys" who peddled dubious technology, poor speaker designs, woo-woo and snake oil.

He put Jim Thiel in his select list of White Hats. A quote from the article:

Jim Thiel (Thiel Loudspeakers)


The high priest of the doctrine of coherence through first-order crossovers in loudspeaker systems. I do not even agree with his doctrine but nonetheless admire him for his engineering talent and uncompromising integrity. The man’s devotion to scientific design and quality construction cannot be questioned. On top of it he is a true gentleman.

jafant

"I have heard the BP-26 with and with the separate power supply."

Can't figure out how the BP-26 can function without the power supply.

Gary,

Rob keeps woofers in stock and also rebuilds. I just got a mid-bass driver that it turns out I didn't need. Is it the driver or passive radiator?

Earl

thosb

The Black Satin finish is very fine indeed.  Hope you or someone else here purchases this model.  Happy Listening!

The Des Plaines 3.7s seem like a great deal, is it partly because of the finish (black)?  Wish I was further along in my audio journey to jump on these....

orpheus10And that would not be a faulty decision. There is a model for every Music lover.  Happy Listening!

Gary - you must find a 7.2 woofer solution because all those owners including yourself can't be left stranded. Good luck with Rob.

The 7.2 is on my wish list of eventual upgrades. But the only information I have is the owners manual and product reviews. I would appreciate any information anyone might have.

Thanks, Tom

brayeagle
I guess so, 300B in the case the Alieno 250 LTD have a lifespan of more than 5000 hours, this is pretty unsual.I would love to hear this amp but right now there is only one dealer that carries it in Italy.

thieliste 

Haven't checked in years, but do the 300Bs still need a somewhat  extensive "break in"  period ?

Although I have custom speakers, out of all the speakers I have auditioned, I would choose Thiel if I was to replace them.

Here is a prettry interesting design that would be cappable of driving Thiel speakers with tube refinement but without the drawback of power deficiency

http://www.acusticaapplicata.com/news.php?lang=eng#alieno

tomthiel
Good to see you today. The information that I have read referred to the Classical music genre bring the most affected. It is an interesting subject.
Happy Listening!

I know that there is some polarity jumble out there. In the 1980s early CD period, the BBC did a study that determined "most people" preferred aggressive sounds (trumpet, drums, etc.) to be in reverse polarity so that the cone moves inward on its initial transient attack.

In today's world of large track counts and greater reliance on recording technologies, it seems that more records are made in proper polarity and don't require any diddling.   

Correction: with and with out a separate Power Supply.

brayeagleI have heard the BP-26 with and with the separate power supply. It never disappointed me one way or another. I can report that the SST/SST2 series of power amps respond very well to a Tubed pre-amp.
Much Thanks! for address the reverse polarity query. I suspect that some CD titles out there were recorded with polarity issue(s)?
Happy Listening!

jayant  Not often, but surprisingly, polarity invert makes some of my piano-only CDs sound more forward and sharp.  Also, there are several pieces on Helmut Walcha's  Bach's Organ Works that sound less dense. 
Could be my imagination; however, I think it helps. 
As for the the BP6 and BP26, the separate power supply for the 26 might help, although my reason for switching to the 26 was to get the balanced outputs.

brayeagleOver the years, I have spent the most time with Bryston and Conrad Johnson electronics. In fact, I bought my Thiel loudspeakers from a Bryston lover as well (BP-26 and 4B-SST2 combo). 

Do you find yourself using the reverse polarity function on the BP-26 often?
Happy Listening!

esprits4s
Good to see you again Gary. Keep us posted after consulting Rob to determine if those woofers can be repaired. 

Tom,  Thank you for your feedback on CS5's vs. CS7.2's.  I very much appreciate your thoughts.  FWIW, I ended up buying both pair:)  The 7.2's have severely damaged woofers though, so not sure yet what I will do with them if the woofers cannot be repaired.
-Gary

jafant

I'm a Bryston guy: BP26 - BP17c (two systems), and two 4BSST2 amplifiers.  BD-3 spinner in one system, BDA-2 DAC and a Cambridge CD transport in the other. Magnum Dynalab  FM tuners in both.  (gave upon vinyl). Thiel 2.7 speakers on one system  and Bryston Mini T speakers in the other.

I'm torn between the BP26 and the 17c, but lean towards the 26, as it has a polarity reverse capability. I used a BP6 for years with earlier versions of the 4B amplifier, so I'm  used to the way the 26 handles the music, as both the 6 and 26 employ the same basic circuit layout.    I've listened extensively to both the 26 and 17 using my STAX Lambda Pro headphones, The 17c might be a little laid back, but both are the classic "straight wire with a gain" preamps that let you hear the quality (or lack thereof) of the recordings. Neither one covers up the mistakes made in the control room or the pressings.  "Warm and Liquid," they are not.

The Thiels are 4 ohm, but go down to 2.6 ohm in the circa 100-160 cps region. The 4Bs handle that without a problem, even at very loud volumes.  At low volumes, IMO, the 4Bs are exceptional. 

Disclaimers: My comments about the 4BSST2 amps are based on listening to my classical  and organ CD collections. Further, I installed dedicated 20 amp circuits for each of the 4Bs. (I have an all-electric home.)

Have Fun auditioning those Brystons. 

BTW: Jim Thiel was the person who introduced me to Bryston. 

brayeagle
2nd Note- I plan to audition the Bryston 4B3 a few days after Christmas.The dealer/retailer may have a BP-17 (3) on hand as well. Otherwise, th pre-amp is a BP-26 which I have heard on several occasions.
Happy Listening!

brayeagle
Good to see you. Thank You for the (3) considerations. I know that due to its age, it will require a re-cap and other inspections per Krell in CT.
Other than a little maintenance, it could be a worthy purchase.Which pre-amp would you Krell guys mate with this beast?
Happy Listening!

jafant

If you're considering the KSA-300, I'd suggest three things (based on previous experience of a friend.)

Install a dedicated 20 amp circuit for it. Nothing else on that circuit!

Have two very husky young men to help uncrate, move, and place that beast where you want it. 

Be certain it has very, very ample circulation.

Just some thoughts.   YMMV

George

ish_mail
Thank You for citing your Serial Numbers.  Happy Listening!

jon_5912those 3.7s look very sweet. The state of IL seems to have quite a concentration of Thiel loudspekers. I have been following this trend for several years now.  Happy Listening!

3.7s in Des Plaines.  Just minutes away.  If only I had an excuse.

Guys,
I maybe considering a Krell KSA-300(s) power amp. I know that it dates back to the 1990's. Many of you enjoy and like the Krell FPB series of power amps.  I am taking experiences, impressions and thoughts on this monster of a power amp. The KSA comes from a very good home, avid audiophile that enjoyed Vinyl and Martin Logan, Magnepan, loudspeakers.

Happy Listening!

prof 
Nice Catch! Hope these 3.7s find a good (new) home.

Happy Listening!

A pair of Thiel 3.7s just hit the market:

https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649484143-thiel-cs-37s-satin-black-wtheir-original-spikes-an...

FWIW, I've bought several items before from that seller.  Good guy!

At one show before the advent of surround, we positioned 2 pairs of 3.5s in the normal stereo position - back to back. There was about 5' between the back-firing pair and the wall and plenty of side wall space as well. The effect is magnificent. The bass wave forms a quasi spherical wave front and the transition to upper frequency in-fill is seamless. If you like bi-polar presentation, try it. That's if you have a spare pair of 3.5s, or your main speaker of choice, available.

Not sure if serial numbers for all Thiel models are of interest here, but I have the following pairs:  CS 2 2s: 7599,7600 and 3.7s 131,132. I am the original owner of the 2 2s and (probably) the third owner of the 3.7s.

Just a note to point out that if you like 3.5's otherwise, four or five of them in a room eliminates any need for a sub while anything resembling recommended surround placement generally also eliminates bass room nodes.

Subwoofers are inherently expensive, especially at Vandy / Thiel levels of execution.

Hypothesis: The ear-brain builds its sonic interpretation from the bottom up. It infers harmonic structure and actually creates a 'phantom fundamental' if none is present in the reproduced waveform. My opinion is that the listener can be better off creating his own phantom fundamental than interpolating a scrambled waveform.

But the choices are never that simple. It's always some mixed bag.
Enter amp interaction. As mentioned above, the amp can be drained and strained by deep bass demands, especially into Thielesque low impedance loads, especially as in the CS5. An obvious remedy is bi-amping' where one channel drives the bass and the other the highs.

Thiel stepped away from the bi solution for various reasons, among which was over-all system cost-effectiveness. The customer buys 2 amps. Another was amp and/or cable mix and match - there are many ways to screw up the sound and the almost-adept-enough dealer / audiophile is skilled at doing so. We determined that the straight-forward, vastly more safe, simple and less expensive route of single inputs was the best way forward, especially given Thiel's high performance per price niche.

At this time I am exploring various bi options while providing a high-quality single input option of jumper straps of solid high purity copper with conductive grease.

Happy Friday! All.

@prof
Yes, that’s fair. Richard Hardesty outlined those benefits in his review of the Vandersteen 2WQ and I considered him a highly credible reviewer. Still, at my budget I want want something that crushes it from the mid bass up. Getting quality subs like SS1s or the Vandies pretty much doubles my investment. I’m putting my money into this XO project and am happy with the 2.4 low bass even if it’s not the final word in extension or definition. 

I just replaced my SCS1 with an MCS1 to go with the 2.4s I upgraded a few months ago with Rob’s SE parts. The seller also had an SW1, which I also picked up, so my theater system is now close to the form the theater gods intended. The discussion of subs has been helpful, as the SW1 is my first. It definitely adds to the theater experience, but I do find all the potential options for integrating the sub into the music experience daunting. The MCS1 is very nice, but this one is probably about 13-14 yrs old, and I would be interested in any upgrades that might be possible. I’m definitely in the school of “buy quality stuff, then maintain it”, which many here seem to understand.