papasmove
The Panel has posted some information within this thead about cracked baffle(s) and corresponding concrete applications. I will review back and attempt to recover an answer or general consesus regarding this important matter. Rob and Tom are our resdient experts. Read over their opinions as well.
Happy Listening!
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andy2
when you read this query- chime in for papasmove.
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@tomthiel I will have the following audio system on Saturday with an almost pure Benchmark setup.
Thiel CS3.7 | DAC3B | HPA4 preamp | single AHB2 amp | 2 tuners | SACD | 15 foot StarQuad XLR peamp-2-amp | Audience AU24 SE XLR and RCA | Benchmark speaker cable.
I went with the all Benchmark setup because I thought the HPA4 was the best piece of audio gear I ever heard and wanted to hear this gear in what Benchmark considers the optimal setup. They recommend professional StarQuad XLR. A lot of documentation on their web site.
The system today sounds very clear and neutral with my KEF LS50’s. No fatigue or harshness whatsoever. It definitely does not have that warm detailed glow of the Luxman m900u amp I heard and would not mind buying. It is more like a peek into the recording studio with this gear as compared to something like the Luxman.
I think the neutral Benchmark stack sounds even better than the most neutral system I have demoed in the past, a SimAudio stack with $15K-$20K pieces. I also like it much better than my old Bryston 4B-SST and 7B-SST gear I owned with Thiel SCS4 and KEF LS50. There is less harshness and fatigue compared to these 2 others.
My SACD player is a 20 year old modified Sony SCD-1 that sounds much warmer than my Benchmark DAC3B. I have started to play the SCD-1 again with increasing regularity since it sounds so incredible through the noiseless Benchmark stack. You can really flavor the sound with different types of sources since the Benchmark does not add anything to it. Some may not like this character but for me it is a revelation and the fact that is cheaper than the other options I was considering is icing on the cake.
I am not sure if the 4 Ohm CS3.7 will work with the single AHB2, pretty sure 2 AHB2’s will work. My room is small and i do not play that loud in my office. However, if the AHB2 is not a good match, the CS3.7 goes to another room and the AHB2 stays.
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I believe that it is the opposite. One ahb2 works fine but the mono. Ahb2 has a higher impedance and won't work. Check with benchmark. |
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@unsound I saw your prior post on this and do have some concern that the amp may not work. Not a big deal if it does not, the CS3.7 is not going anywhere nor is the Benchmark stack. I plan on setting up 2 rooms once things get back to normal. The Magico A3 speaker I demoed at a store with my old AHB2 sounded closed in with a single AHB2. I actually sold it after that demo since I was thinking I was going to get the Luxman. Though that changed when I bought the HPA4 and then re-purchased the AHB2. I will find out soon enough. Unfortunately I do not have funds available to buy a second AHB2 in the short term. BTW - Did you read the Benchmark designers comments on the links I posted above? https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/running-benchmark-ahb2-in-bridged-mode-and-4-ohm-speaker/post...This is his profile on A’gon. https://forum.audiogon.com/users/gearbuilder |
Unsound - I agree that the proper rating for the 3.7 would be 2.5 ohms. Nominal impedance is by convention stated at or near the minimus after the bass anomalies. If that trough is deep and steep the rating can be upped a little, but the 3.7 does not bounce back and indeed stays below 3 ohms to 500 herz, where lots of power is required for mid-bass output.
I find Jim's adherence to low impedances misguided and limiting. Not many amps perform well into such a low impedance.
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Regarding the cracked concrete baffle. The chicken's way out (easy and little danger) is to smear concrete caulk on the inside to stop the airflow. Then dribble thin epoxy or cyanoacrylate into the crack from the front and either finish the show face or not to cosmetic taste.
Like ultra-low impedance, I judge the concrete baffle to be an inadequate solution. It was changed to a stone x polyester substitute, which required considerable ventilation of fumes - the joys of manufacturing. I've mentioned my preference for the Hydrostone solution that ended up in Hales counterparts.
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YYZ - what a system! Thanks for chiming in. I landed on Benchmark for my use and love it. thielrules is correct that low impedance loads are harder to drive when bridged. John Siau, the designer. evaluated all Thiel performance curves and chose only the early models plus the 7.2 as suitable for mono. But so much depends on particulars. My (odd) room is effectively fairly large; I listen in the 85dB range max (except for short bursts of stress testing.) The AHB-2 has excellent protection and excellent LED monitoring. I overdrive far more in stereo mode than mono on the PowerPoint, SCS4, CS2.2, 3.5 and 3.6 (all I have.) Additionally, the internal protection is so good and so fast that there is little if any danger of a distorted signal passing through. They are a different type of amp entirely. I land on bridged mono to stay out of clipping almost entirely.
Awhile back some of us on this forum (perhaps behind the curtain, I don't remember) compared AHB-2s in mono vs stereo and agreed that stereo sounds somehow purer/more delicate - subtle difference. John Siau is convinced that we are hearing the halving of damping factor in mono and that halving the cable length would make them 'sonically identical'. I'm skeptical of identical, but he has a valid point.
Today's tri-amping experiment hasn't lifted off, but I hope to be ready for Natasha's visit tomorrow afternoon. We'll be comparing different amp setups through the outboard crossover. I'll report after I've gathered some experience.
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There is one amp that has all the qualities required by 3.7s but unfortunately way too expensive for most Thiel owners it's the Gryphon Antileon Evo.1200w into 1 ohm pure class A.
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thieliste - what's the price tag?Anybody tried the new PS Audio 1200 watt monos? They state 2ohms as suitable for musical transients, so I donno.
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I have the 3.7 speakers. This past summer
I introduced two AHB2 amps to replace my Classe ca 300 which was having problems. They sounded so good I moved to an all Benchmark system soon thereafter: DAC 3B (replaced a Berkeley Alpha DAC Series 2, smoked it), LA4 pre and AHB2 with all Benchmark cabling.
I ran the two AHB2s in bridged mode at first, then tried just one amp. I have to say, the single amp sounds better -- better harmonic purity, focus and all the volume I need for massive orchestral music in my 19 x 20 room. I've had it as loud as anyone would want, and no clipping.
So that's my system: Thiel 3.7 and all Benchmark along with an Aurender N10 server. It sounds _fabulous_ . I've had a life as a professional classical musician with constant interaction with venues and ensembles large and small. The Benchmark AHB2 has an extraordinary purity and depth, no coloration, just the music, with instruments placed perfectly in the stage. No problem hearing into dense tone clusters in, say, Messiaen's orchestral music. Dynamics, transients, timbre is just as it should be, or rather, as it is. I feel at this point that that's it, no need to look further.
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I should add that most of the listening in our house is not "massive orchestral music," more solo instrument or small ensemble of one sort or another. But the power is there if you need it. That, from a single 100 watt stereo amp.
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I'm on a roll...Benchmark has a free 30 day trial for all components and the people are well informed, helpful and personable. Plus the product price presents extraordinary value. There you have it.
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And, yes,Tom, I remember discussing this with you via email this summer. We both thought the stereo setup was better as I recall.Todd
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thieliste - what's the price tag?Anybody tried the new PS Audio 1200 watt monos? They state 2ohms as suitable for musical transients, so I donno."
Not using the PS Audio 1200W monos. It uses the IcePower AS1200 modules with their own custom (12AU7) tube input buffer. I have an EVS 1200 which has two of the same mono input modules with a custom mods and buffer designed by Ric Schultz. No problems driving my Thiel 3.7s to insanely loud levels and they are between two and three ohms over much of the band (there were a couple of magazine tests that measured the minium impedance of 2.4 and 2.3 ohms). Before that, I had an unmodded (Mivera Audio) AS1200 stereo amp which easily drive the 3.7s better in all respects to a well know Class A/B amp (and I had another well know Class A/B amp before that). Those are no my opinions alone, as I had others over who heard the prior amps.
The module spec sheet says 2.7s ohms minimum, but that is there for people in large concert venues piggybacking speakers, and, while I'm sure they have a limit (I'd be hesitant to try them with old Infinity Kappas which I believe went down to something like a minimum of 1.3 ohms). I'd imagine the PS Audio amps are really nice. I don't really have the space for monoblocks (have an integrated A/V system) so it is really not something on my wishlist but I'm sure they sound great. |
@tomthiel @tmsrdg A big thanks for the posts about John Siau’s analysis and the hands on experience with the AHB2 + CS3.7. You guys just saved me a whole bunch of hassle. I can just concentrate on the single stereo amp and it sounds like I have a good combo for the CS3.7.
I think I will keep my eyes open for whatever Purifi comes out with. They are supposedly looking to delivery a new much more powerful Class D amplification module. I have not heard the first gen Purifi amps yet but they seem very similar to the AHB2.
BTW - @tmsdrg I also tried the StarQuad XLR's on my sources but found that the Audience Au24 SE XLR was preferred. I happily use StarQuad for preamp-2-amp.
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There are several posts on the PS Audio forum stating how well the M700 monoblocks work with Thiel speakers, including the 3.7. If the M700s work well, then the more powerful M1200s should work even better. Both models are spec'd as solid down to 4 ohms and stable at 2 ohms, which still leaves a few questions about driving a 2.4 ohm speaker like the 3.7. However, one poster commented on how replacing a ML 533h amp with the M700s restored the powerful bass performance that had been present earlier when the 3.7 speakers were demo'd with mono Krell amps.
Just further food for thought. |
tmsrdg
Thank You for the follow upon your current system- very nice!
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Thank You for the opinion and follow up to papasmove query.Reading back in this thread, I found, a similar discussion and opinion back in October 2018.
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papasmove
read back over the discussions started in October 2018.There is a brief over-view of a concrete baffle talk.
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tomthiel
I wanted to circle back around on Cabling. Add Acoustic Zen, Mogami and Synergistic Research to your list.
Happy Listening!
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I’m friends with Ted from synergistic audio On Facebook. Cool guy. |
@thieliste, at some point it all becomes academic, no Thiel goes down to 1 Ohm and the there is only so much power coming from the wall. But, you do realize that Gryphon Antileon’s impressive 1 Ohm spec is the equivalent of 150 Watts into 8 Ohms. If one had a large room, they might be served powering their Thiel’s with a larger amp that could double down into 2 Ohms. Probably cost less too. Lovely sounding amps though! |
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thoft
Thank You for the follow up. I do not know if Ted is building his Cable systems 100% here in the U.S. ?
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@jafant all American 100% and no plans to move his operations to a different country EVER. |
thoft
Right On! These other so-called U.S. Cable companies could take a lesson or two from Ted.
Happy Listening!
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JAFant - thanks for the cable tips. Too many variables, too little time.I have direct experience with Mogami from the pro world. It's considered by many pros as best of form for mic, interconnect and speaker cable. Their best is quite good, but direct comparison to Swiss Vovox mic, or Morrow interconnects leaves Mogami sounding pleasantly veiled to my ear. I would gladly adopt some Acoustic Zen or Synergistic Research into my rotation if they come my way.
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Gryphon Antileon Evo is 34k in Europe so probably a little more in the US.I think it's overkill for CS 3.7s but it would be interesting to try out this amp on 3.7s.IMO a used Diablo 300 at around 8k is unbeatable to get the most out of 3.7s most likely better than PS Audio BHK.If i purchase 3.7s in the next few months i will look for a used Diablo 300 for sure.Cheers
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tomthiel
My pleasure to assist. Absolutely! too many cables/cords, so little time!And to think most of the better products are over in Europe. Japan is not far behind the EU.
Happy Listening!
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Hi Everyone. Still dropping by every Friday to check out what’s happening in my favorite Audiogon thread.
Really good to read about the AHB2 experiences. I have been considering trialing one of these with my 3.5’s.
Previous experiences with bridging other amps (using the 3.5s) also revealed that the single amp option was preferable.
I currently run a VPI 299D tube amp with huge success, but the AHB2 has been calling to me for some time, not least because it would make a great partner with my Benchmark DAC2 HGC, of course. I also have a super pair of 1978 Quad 57’s and I gather that the AHB2 is a nice match for those also.
I decided to take my old B&K AVR202 surround amp off the shelf earlier this week. The two channel performance is amazing and you have so much control over gain at both source and output levels. A lot of fun and incredible sound.
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I have had several pairs of Thiels over time. They present some challenges to drive them well to higher volumes as they have low impedance and are not so efficient. But their sound is beguiling and it is worth to the trouble to find amplifiers who can handle the load. |
catalysis,
I was happy to see you mention your B&K amp. I'm still using an AVR507 to power five 1.2 Powerpoints and a Thiel sub in a 5.1 set-up in my basement home theater system. The B&K has great sound for a multichannel receiver, and it works very well with the Powerpoints. |
I conquer Thiels need some serious high current amp to drive them, i would avoid the analytical ones and prefer the ones that are full body and organic.
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ronkent
when you see this post- chime in on the PS Audio BHK gear.
Happy Listening!
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bighempin
when you see this post- chime in on the BHK gear.Your system is maturing and settling in nicely.
Happy Listening!
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troidelover1499
Welcome! good to see you here. Can you tell us the current and other Thiel Audio models owned? I look forward in reading more about your musical tastes and system.
Happy Listening!
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IME, at least with the earlier >4 Ohm Thiel’s, the B&K M 200’s can compete with much more expensive competitors,
without embarrassment. |
I've said it before but if some of you are looking for great amps that are perfect match for Thiels look for Sugden MP4 monoblocks 165w of pure class A, great mucality.
5k used.
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All
I wanted to give a special shout-out for an Audiophile that has not yet joined us. He can be found over on Audio Asylum- Mr. Abe Collins. This Thiel owner (CS 2.4 for many, many, years and counting), is directly responsible for sparking my initial interest into the brand. For years, I read over his posts and systems both tubed/solid-state with eyes wide open. He can advise on tube-rolling as well. Although I would not have my personal moment w/ the CS 2.4 in early 2012, I had a strong sense of the loudspeaker's personality.Indeed, on that fateful day in Baltimore, MD., the CS 2.4 presented itself as advertised! I would continue to follow this particular model until I found the CS 2.4SE. My search ended that day in Raleigh, NC.2nd Note:Earlier this week I procured a cherry Accuphase DP-65v from Mr. Abe Collins. I have been chasing his spinner for upwards of 10 years now.This player is a BEAST and weighs in around 50 lbs. Japanese disc-spinning goodness at its finest. Pics to follow as soon as possible due to work schedule.
Happy Listening!
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Hello all!
Want to chime in on the amp topic, using my personal experience: while they don’t get enough love when compared to their tube-based brothers, I have to say that the solid-state models from Audio Research make ideal amps for our Thiels, no matter how difficult to drive. I don’t believe there isn’t a solid-state AR model that doesn’t double down from 8 to 4 to 2 power-wise. I had no problems driving my 3.5’s with one D240 MKII amp...getting a second one to run them in monoblock configuration pretty much confirmed that one can never have too much power or current when it comes to Thiels. The best part though: Audio Research solid-state amps are a relative bargain compared to their tube amps as well as many other “vintage” offerings from Levinson, Krell, etc. Match these up with AR tube pre-amps like I have for system synergy and you’ll have some of that tube-warmth with all the power and dynamics solid-state offers.
Just my $0.02 worth. Hope everyone’s doing well!
Arvin |
Tom I am a precision millwright with over 30 yrs of experience we normally use epoxy grout for our motor and pump bases. The millwright trade has changed a lot over the last 10-15 yrs we no longer pour our own grout. We usually set a piece of equipment on elevation and maybe do an alignment, but the "civil crew" will do the grouting.
I like the concrete caulk idea. I've tried 2 types of concrete sealers on the cracks. I used duct tape on the bottom to contain flow but the sealer would always leak. I am going to try a new sealer from the job with the concrete caulk.
I will take pics and keep you posted.
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arvincastro
Good to see you again. Thank You for suggesting another solid state option in ARC products. Enjoy Fall and the Music!
Happy Listening!
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papasmove
keep us posted as you try a sealer for the concrete baffle.
Happy Listening!
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catalysis
Good to see you here. Thank You for suggesting the Benchmark products.There are plenty of positive reviews across the other Audio forums. Most Audiophiles like their DAC. Hope you are well and enjoying the Music.
Happy Listening!
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sdl4
I have not thought about B&K for a long time now. Good to read that there are owners still enjoying these products.
Happy Listening!
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^Though I’m confident that most already know not to over generalize a brands different product models comparabilities, it might be even more so the case with B&K’s and Thiel’s. Most B&K’s aren’t particularly suitable with most Thiel’s. But, there are some notable exceptions that work particularly well on their own merits, and just so happen to offer very good value while doing so. |
^erratum: the second sentence, fourth word should read: compatibilities. |
