I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
@thoft, Hold on. You might not actually prefer these to the 3.5’s. The 3.5’s will actually play deeper in the bass and do so with greater cohesion. The 3.7’s are better at dealing with the lobbing issues, both are more dynamic, especially the 7.2’s. The cost of amplification will certainly go up with either. On the other hand, replacement parts are much more available than are for the 3.5s.
@Thieliste has given excellent advice recommending some of the best amps for these speakers. The Momentum amps jump to mind as well. The Gryphon’s are probably the best amps I’ve ever heard, but the are not inexpensive(!), and the US distribution has been inconsistent in the past, new ownership seemingly following the originators design philosophy might change that, but the possibility of having to ship these heavy amps back to Denmark is a bit daunting to me. The Krells seem to need to be recapped a bit more often than some others and that’s not cheap either, though IMHO worth it.
It might be true. But, you know what they say about opinions. Unless, one really knows the listener and their perceptions and their experience, or there is consensus from an adequate sample size, I suggest prioritizing the objective information first. If an amp manufacturer can deliver the goods into a low impedance, they will brag about it. On the other hand, specs and measurements are only prerequisites for narrowing down the suitable prospective choices. After that, there are elements of the sound that at this time escape those criterion. I suggest dealing with what we do know before venturing into the unknown. Not doing so is tantamount to traveling to an unknown destination in the dark.
BHK300 will be ok with 3.7s but a good used Diablo 300 is still the best option IMO.Gryphon has now very good distribution in the US with Philip O'Hanlon.
^i hope you’re right. But, even if I had the budget, due to their past history, and the risk of the alternative process, I’d personally wait and see if they can keep their legs under themselves. I really wish them luck. Absolutely terrific products!
thieliste Thank You for the kind words. The AX-5 / AX-5 Twenty is a musically superb Integrated amp. 2020 has been a Hell of a year for integrated amps! Happy Listening!
2nd Note; thieliste- read back in the early pages of this thread for direct comparisons between the CS 2.7 and CS 3.7, well annotated. Happy Listening!
i've owned my pair of gently used cs.5 minitowers for about 4 years now, i wouldn't own any others, they were the only speakers i tried that would work in my 14' wide tin can listening room, they image like just about no other speaker in a small room. the speakers themselves are not immediately apparent as sound sources for anything i play on them. their mono specificity is the best i've heard of any speaker in any room. best of all, unlike the bigger thiels, these are MELLOW! but still accurate, i can still "hear into" dense recordings about as well as with the last pair of maggies i heard. on the best recordings their stereo imaging is wall-to-wall with almost palpable instrument placement. they are power-hungry just like their bigger thiel brothers but not as tough a load for non-audiophile amps to power. they have the cleanest purest deep bass i've heard on anything less than a megabuck system. they pass the "sit-down-stand-up test with flying colors. wish i'd found these decades ago.
@thieliste Thanks. Can this be easily done or would the speaker need to be shipped to Coherent Source Service?
Years ago I bought a cool car instead of the Thiel 3.7’s. I sold the car 2 weeks ago on Facebook, it was crazy, sold in less than an hour. I am thinking of getting that CS3.7 that got away all those years ago with the car sale proceeds.
emrofsemanon Welcome! Good to see you here. What other gear and cabling is in your system? I look forward in reading about your musical tastes. Happy Listening!
@yyzsantabarbara Not really worth upgrading, what you mostly get is the speakers are a little easier to drive therefore more amp choices other than that it's not night and day.If you really want to do it most ex Thiel dealers can do it for you
YYZsantabarbara - here are some thoughts about Thiel product versions - upgrades follow this general pattern. A product is introduced with components, especially drivers, being prototypes and early small production runs. Within the first year it becomes obvious through 100% production final testing that some tweaking would better center the speakers (made of real, settled production parts) within their window of acceptability. This first revision is generally not announced, since no real circuitry or specifications are changed - merely subtle improvement of more speakers. At some later time, after ongoing feedback from dealers, reviewers, users, staff listening and Jim’s own scrutiny, a second revision is made which is often more significant and serves to upgrade the perceived shortcomings of the product. Sometimes this second revision carries a price increase. In other words the cost / performance plateau is adjusted toward optimum. In some cases the upgrade is significant such as the CS5i (improved); in some cases it is more subtle, but always more optimum, what the product wanted to be when it grew up - the mature iteration of the design.
In the case of the 3.7, here is what I found. In January 2007 the CS3.7 was introduced (original version - I have no layout or schematic.) On Jan 12, 2008 revision 1 was introduced at approximate serial number #517,18. On October 4, 2008, revision 2 was initiated at approximate serial number #881,82. Revision 2 is the current, mature layout. The changes in revision 2 over revision 1 are significant: 3 changes, all in the tweeter feed section - addition of a bypass resistor, and changes in coil and capacitor values. These changes affect the shape of the roll-in of the lower tweeter to optimize the blend with the midrange roll out, cleaning up frequency and time-domain coarseness in the upper midrange. Note that the 3.7 UMR got some criticism and someone offers an after-market kit to address it (I’m not recommending that kit.)
All in, I would suggest you consider the upgrade if your speakers are under #880 and upper midrange "rightness" is a concern. Note that many rooms with hard surfaces or dimensional problems exacerbate upper midrange glare and ringing. A problem in a ’bright’ room can go away in a ’sweet’ room. Note also that if you're in there making changes: the added 20 ohm tweeter feed resistor and the existing 12 ohm should become Mills MRA-12s, and the feed cap and its bypass should be upgraded to a ClarityCap CSA 16uF at as high a voltage as you can fit and afford ($25-$35 / each). Just my opinion from my hot-rodding experience.
tomthiel Thank You for the history lesson on CS 3.7 loudspeakers.I hope that you are well and enjoying the Fall season there in New England.This is a good reminder for cite your Serial Numbers (S/N) on all Thiel Audio models here. Happy Listening!
yyzsantabarbara not long ago a pair of CS 3.7 were listed on U.S. Audiomart. Watch that site often, as well as, Audio Asulym, Audiogon, eBay and Craigslist. Keep me posted on your hunt.
I have to laugh after you (and others) encouraged me to get a tube preamp for my Thiel 2.2's and then you picked up a tubeless Ayre integrated amp to drive your Thiels after I broke down and bought a BHK preamp for my system. My BHK still needs more burn-in, but it already sounds great. It adds body to reproduction of instruments and broadens the sound stage in a very pleasing and natural way, but it never sounds flabby or loose the way some tube amps/preamps can sound.
Just bought a pair of CS3.7's. Going to drive and pick it up on Saturday.
It has been 12 years since I demoed and wanted to buy the CS 3.7 and the stars aligned quickly this past 3 weeks. I was going to buy the Yamaha NS5000 for the office but the CS3.7 will fit better (less bass) and I love this model.
I am going to be putting this in my office which is way too small. However, I did demo them long ago in a small room (with subs no less). I also have the room acoustically treated and I am going to call up Mitch Barnett of Acoustic Sounds in Canada to develop a few convolution files (DRC) to run my digital via ROON.
My analog only SACD player may not work with the CS3.7 in this room since I won't be able to do DRC with that, but I also like headphones for that player.
I do have a much larger room downstairs for this speaker if I cannot make it work in the office, but my toddler has that as his play room. I can share with him once he goes back to school. Pretty sure this DRC exercise in the office will be successful, especially with the CS3.7.
My gear is an all Benchmark stack, HPA4 preamp | DAC3B | AHB2 amp | Benchmark Speaker cables | Benchmark StarQuad XLR between pre-amp and amp | Audience AU24 SE on 3 sources to the preamp.
I believe this should be a good sounding setup. If not the CS 3.7's go downstairs. I will likely get a second AHB2 to run in mono.
Congrats on the 3.7s! What finish are they? I'd love to have a pair of those speakers, but my 2.2s look and sound so good in my living room that it's hard for me to justify newer and larger speakers.
And don't let your toddler run the house! If the the 3.7s don't work in the office, just switch rooms with your son and tell him it's about time he got to work and started paying his own way.
@yyzsantabarbara Congrats on your 3.7s purchase let's see how you like them.I might follow you soon as i'm contemplating a pair of 2.7s and a Gryphon Diablo 300 to drive them.I have to postpone my big reference rig project for the next few years but don't want to stay without a system therefore a pair of 2.7s or 3.7s paired with a Diablo 300 would do just fine.I'll keep you guys posted.
sdl4 Glad I made you laugh. A tubed pre-amp is suggested in a separates set-up. On several auditions I heard that combination (tubed pre + ss power) and it does not disappoint. The BHK pre-amp is very fine. You will not become disappointed. What other gear including cabling rounds out your system?Regarding AYRE, I dare report that this may be the only brand who's power amp does not require a tubed preamp (Twenty Series). Unequivocally, this special series possess a tubed Soul.
Thanks guys. I sold my SCS4 about 6 years ago and was not expecting to get a CS3.7. However, room treatments and DRC have made the CS3.7 placement seem possible in my office. I also have comfort with how to resolve problems with the CS3.7 from what I learned on this thread.
I do not think there will be a degradation of the sound via DRC, maybe an enhancement due to better room matching. That is getting the frequency curve to best match my room.
This is the guy who I will get to make the optimal frequency curve for my room. This will be implemented as Convolution File(s). The execution of these files are supported in software such as ROON and JRiver. Sort of 2020's equivalent of the old hardware equalizer.
I got a cherry veneer CS3.7 which matches all my furniture in the office. Was not trying to do that but it was a nice bonus.
The Gryphon Diablo should make a nice pairing with the CS3.7 or CS2.7. It will be interesting to see if my gear will work with the CS3.7. My gear is very neutral but the CS3.7 has a bit of warmth on top from what I remember so it should work. My current KEF LS50s sound great with the Benchmark gear. The aluminum coincident driver on the LS50s is similar in intent to the CS3.7.
I'm sure your Ayre amp sounds great. It looks like cable choices are the next big item on your agenda. My experience with cables is fairly limited, but I do have a pretty good feeling for what works in my current system. When I first got the PS Audio Stellar M700 monoblock amps and the Gain Cell DAC/Preamp last year, I settled on using the Cardas Parsec balanced XLRs between the DAC/Pre and the amps after trying several other cables. The Parsec does not produce dramatically etched detail in the upper frequencies, but it does provide a good balance between detail and warmth, and the bass is solid with my 2.2 Thiels. I also picked up several Audience Forte F3 power cords and have been using them with all my PS Audio gear. These Audience cords are a bargain, and they help my system provide a smoother sound with a quieter background compared to the stock cords. Some online comments voice concerns that the Forte cords sound a little soft on the high end, but I don't have a lot to compare them with.
After getting the PS Audio BHK Preamp, I've been using it with the Stellar DAC/Pre in DAC-only mode. This meant that I needed another XLR interconnect between the BHK Pre and the Stellar DAC. If I were being more careful with my audio spending, I would have just picked up another pair of Parsec XLRs, but I've been lusting after the Cardas Clear Reflection XLRs so I decided to try a pair. First the good news: I really like the Clear Reflection cables. And the bad news: I really like the CR cables. This is bad news only because they cost a lot more than the Parsecs do. For now, I'm using the CR from DAC to Pre and the Parsec from Pre to M700s. If my self-control dissolves at some point, I may replace the Parsec with CR. But I still like the Parsec a lot, so there's no hurry to change them out. I'm still undecided about power cords, but I will soon be trying a pair of Shunyata Delta NR V2 power cords on either the BHK Pre and Stellar DAC or on the two M700 monoblocks to compare with the Audience cords. My speaker cables are long runs (24 ft.) of Straight Wire Encore. It's really hard to demo alternative cables that long, and super high-end cables are too expensive in those lengths, so I'll be sticking with the Straight Wire until a better high-performance bargain wire comes along.
A few more comments about the Cardas Clear Reflection interconnects may be helpful. This is not a cable for listeners seeking the nth degree of etched detail, although it does have an extended high end overall. Instead, it is a cable that gets the sound of voices, instruments, and music right. It images great, but not by exaggerating transients or shouting for attention. It simply makes recordings sound like music - at least in my system, which can sound a little too bright with the wrong cables. Because it sounds so natural, the CR is a favorite of many listeners, including several Thiel owners on this thread and Angela Cardas, who has many more expensive cables from Cardas Audio to choose from. If you're looking for some of the "midrange magic" from the earlier Cardas cables combined with the increased clarity from the technology used in Cardas' Clear series of cables, then Clear Reflection would be a great choice.
sdl4 You own a great system. Good to read that newer Cardas cabling is a sonic match with PS Audio gear. Historically, Audience and Straight Wire are sonic matches with Thiel loudspeakers as well. I am unfamiliar with newer Audience Forte and Front Row cabling options. A few reviews on each line are slowly making a presense into the Audio press. I always advise to trust your own ears regarding cables/power cords.One does not need great spending to achieve great sound. A full loom as well as mixing can yield excellent aural results. Have fun! Happy Listening!
So my adcom left channel is feathering out. Staticky/hissy. I think I drove it too hard on 4 ohms too soon since the first owner never had it on anything less than 8ohms
@thoft A used Diablo 300 would be within your budget about $8K.The Diablo 300 has everything a 2.7 or 3.7 needs : high current, organic and full body sound.Otherwise Ayre is great but you won't have the bass of Gryphon amplification.
sdl4 Any brand that does not source to china is my focus. Swisscable, is my first audition sometime in December. I am open to other European or Japanese competitors.
Thieliste - Rob Gillum at Coherent Source Service would know. The third New Thiel CEO told me "less than a couple thousand"; but then he was defending the decision to abandon Jim's designs. My impression is that marketing was in disarray after Jim's death in 2009. After taking on Crutchfield, the US dealer base evaporated and so forth. If anyone finds out, I'd like to know.
luxmancl38 Thank You for posting the CS 2.3 loudspeakers. You guys are lucky to have a great Audio shop in Audio Video Therapy Nashua NH. Happy Listening!
@tomthiel Thanks for your response, a couple of thousand is not bad at all but it is no surprise for speakers that were in the top 20 best speakers of all time and very reasonably priced compared to the competition.Even by today's standard they can keep up with much more expensive speakers.
I remembered your previous comments on Morrow cables and was checking out their SP5 speaker cables a couple days ago. Most of the reviews focused on mid and high frequency performance, and there was little mention of bass performance. What's your view of how the Morrow speaker wire handles the low end? Is the SP5 high enough in the Morrow hierarchy to get really good performance or do you need to go to SP6 or higher to achieve sonic satisfaction?
I know that Morrow has frequent sales, but right now they have 50% off on the 5 series cables or higher, which sounds like an especially good deal.
A guy has these amps he used to drive apogee scintillas with for sale. custom made by Lazarus whatever company that was. Thinking I might hop on those. Two whopping transformers.
You’re much more trusting, and willing risk taker than I am.
If you’re really looking for an amp to drive the 3.7’s for less than $10K, why not use the main one that Jim Thiel used when developing the 3.7’s: Krell FPB 600 ? You can find one used and have Krell rebuild it for about less than that. If you’ve got a smaller room or budget, you can go with a less powerful version.
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