One area in phase that you is always left out is the phase of the midrange cone during playback. If you look at the Wilson midrange it's out of phase as it's not a true pistonic driver. That's not marketing hype by Vandersteen.
I have no idea, but I wonder if the pre 2000 cones were phase correct for any speaker? There are break up's when they aren't pistonic and it throws things out of phase.
On the flip side of phase, not everyone is effected by it. Some folks don't even notice it, but they may notice soundstage depth and pinching in the rear. Those who don't notice phase anomalies may be more aware of stage size etc... We all hear differently.
I'm the first to say that I couldn't listen to Wilson speakers until recently. They have done a great job of making a dynamic speaker, that is non fatiguing, but to MY ears lack the micro and macro details that I am aware of as my Vandersteen's don't smear. It effects the leading and trailing edges per say.
All speakers have to have compromises. It's who's compromises you like best or who's marketing you buy into. Makes it fun. |
Hi @unsound,
All multi-way speakers employ crossovers, and the phase must align correctly or there will be frequency response anomalies and lobing effects.
What I suggest you do is look at the Stereophile reviews for Thiel and Vandersteen speakers and compare them to say Monitor Audio or Wilson. your answer is there.
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As I understand it; a speaker might be phase correct but not time correct, where as a time correct speaker will be phase correct. |
I can promise you that to MY ears there are differences for sure. The deal with all digital is that it's so room/house dependent. That's mostly for power cords and conditioners and grounding. Ethernet and USB do make a noticeable difference to me though.
Dave is a great guy and really knows his stuff. He's fascinating to talk to. |
yesterday's HiFi Chats via YouTube featured Dave Gordon of ARC.
Fast forward to around 30:15 where Dave said "not all USB cables sound the same". I am sure a lot of people will have issues with that :-) |
tomthiel
Thank You for another Thiel Audio history lesson. Hope you are well this early Summer day.
Happy Listening! |
Add Brinkman to that list and you have zero feedback designs that work BEST with TRUE time and phase correct speakers like Thiel and Vandersteen. Many speakers will claim they are like Wilson, but only the adjustable Wilson's are time correct, but are in no way phase correct as they claim.
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Cool history regarding Dave Gordon! I’m an A-hole: my favorite electronics are Ayre, Aesthetix, and ARC. |
And it may interest you that Dave was Thiel's national sales manager from the late 80s to 90s. He moved his family to Lexington to help Thiel navigate their rapid growth into compatible and excellent dealers that he knew from ARC and Magnepan. He eventually went back home to ARC, and everyone was better for the experience.
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All
yesterday's HiFi Chats via YouTube featured Dave Gordon of ARC.
We have many members of the Panel who own ARC gear for their Thiel Audio loudspeakers.
Happy Listening! |
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@stspur
I don’t think you’re going to find a 630V EL. If you’re swapping for fresh ELs just match the voltage rating. The high voltage *film* caps are for critical feed path placement in which higher voltage = thicker film = better sound.
Now, if your 3.6 is like @vair68robert CS2.7 and you have ELs in the feed path and you want to upgrade to film caps then you might need to go to an outboard solution. And be prepared to $pend.
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I want to update my statement about stereo vs bridged Benchmark AHB-2 use. I spoke with John Siau today who said they updated their software to allow current to 1 ohm at full power, with no sacrifice of noise or distortion performance. Any Thiel model can be used either stereo or bridged. I listened today and found very slight subjective differences. Stereo produces slightly more 'air' and sense of harmonic detail. Bridged produces slightly fuller bass lines, probably due to the halving of damping factor from 370 to 185. Bass still sounds clean and tight. JS does not relate to these subjective differences. I will change from bridged to stereo, using one channel of each amp per speaker for a slightly better 'I am there' presentation, since 100 watts provides more than enough volume in my space.
I'll also correct my statement of limited audiophile acceptance. My impression was wrong, they're selling like hotcakes. I love mine.
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Many thanks for all the responses towards my 3.6 XO project. This is proving to be such fun already and so glad to have the history along the way! With regard to the Claritycaps: I see 250v and 630v option. I know that the 8.2uf version will be used as recommended by Tomthiel however, I can't seem to find 630v versons of some of the remaining ELs if required. The original Solen VersaTronics are rated at 400v so I'm a little stumpted here. I'm checking out Madisound and Partsconnexion for all components. Any other referrals would be greatly appreciated.
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4 @ 100uF is what Jim always used. People here have recommended Mundorf's lytics. Or ask Jeff at Sonic Craft.
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Thanks Tom
I am have a hard time finding " replacements " for the Topmay caps ,
I found AVS makes tantalums in the values needed and the are low
ERS , so I was just wondering .
We talked about using 4 100uf
Rob
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Rob - I knew Tantalums from Bryston's 1980s designs, and checked them out. Not as good as our stock caps. Bryston abandoned them also.
Taking the woofer XO closer to the midrange driver would not be good.Some models would benefit from moving the XO to the cabinet floor, but the bottom is glued in. I've been running around this bush quite a bit. I will say that outboarding the crossover is having wonderful results. In addition to the gain in distance from drivers, add absence of vibration and freedom to mount components in free air, and lower ambient temperature for XO and for drivers, since the XO itself generates heat.
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2 questions
Has anybody had experience with Tantalum electrolytic capacitors ?
And would moving the bass crossover on the 3.6 ( or other models )
up to the chamber of the passive radiator have any effect ?
Thanks
Rob
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The Accuphase E-800 might be something to consider with 3.7s.This beast doubles its power down to 1 ohm !!
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Pass Int-250 is a perfect match for CS 3.7s juste like the Diablo 300.
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Thank you all for your comments and recommendations on my recent posting. I will be following up.
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@tomthiel I was reading a lot of posts all over the internet on Benchmark because I am currently buying some of their gear, including a couple of AHB2's. From what I read, I think the AHB2 gets a lot of respect in the HiFi community. Some people do not like it saying it is too dry for their tastes. Personally, I do not feel that way and love it (I owned it before).
Today, I was speaking with Mike Siau (maybe the son of John) of Benchmark on some issue with my HPA4 preamp. An incredible sounding unit which I am now wondering if I should buy a second unit. There was some minor issue with something and he did some somersaults to make sure things would get resolved ASAP without me missing a second of music. I feel good about supporting companies like this. |
BTW: Benchmark's designer John Siau reviewed the XO schematics and specs and fed back the following:
CS7.2 stereo or bridged, CS5, 3.7, 3.6, 2.4 stereo mode only. That said, I use bridged nearly exclusively without problems. Seems that class H amps hit a hard wall at high current into low impedances. As I've said, I sometimes see flicker, but have never shut one down. |
My amps for comparison include an Adcom 555II, a pair of Classe DR9s bridged and not and a pair of Benchmark AHB2s bridged and not. I do not find the Adcom very musical and use it mostly to drive speakers under test. I like the Classe, but the AHB is my go-to amp. It drives the CS2.2s to beyond my loudness tolerance. Its ultra sensitive overload lights tell me when I'm pushing it, which is almost never. I'd call it just the facts, and all of them, more so than the rebuilt and optimized Classe pair. The ABs are class H with a patented THX topology where the class H regulated power supply drives small class A output stages with feed-forward distortion correction. It got class A from Absolute Sound, and seemingly no cred in the hi fi community. I love 'em.
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The QSC I heard a while back was 2000 watts per chn...and it wasnt class D it was class H. Class H from the late 70s and early 80s was somehing terrible we had from a vendor maybe Hitachi and then even before that Soundcraftmen..The QSC was on Legacy speakers. Tom |
I would avoid Spectral with 3.7s, not a very good match.Hegel H30 is awsome paired with 3.7s, a used Gryphon Diablo 300 is also a great alternative.
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Tom and 'tweak,
Yes, as a matter of fact it was QSC model USA 850. My only critical observation was that it could have had a bit more "filling out" or saturationof the colors. But even so...
Tom, I remember you posting here a while back re the Benchmark AHB2. Do you think this could drive the 3.7s, either bridged mono or single unit?I've been looking into amp upgrades and the shortlist includes Hegel, Ayre, maybe Spectral. But the Benchmark looks very intriguing, especially since that unit would do two things that make me very happy: save a bundle and get better sound. I've spent my life in and around acoustical music in orchestral halls, chamber halls and studios. All I need and desire is (as Jack Webb famously put it) "just the facts, ma'am."
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Often pro audio gear is looked down upon..QSC has made some fine sounding amps..I suppose they could be improved upon with the addition of a few "audiophile parts"..Tom |
Pray tell, what is the amp?
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Just an aside in response to the amp mini-thread that preceded Tom's last post:I've had Thiels in my system since the mod-90s. First the 2 2, now for the last three years, the 3.7. Recently, the sound from the speakers has been breaking up. It sounded like an amp problem (Classe ca-300) but just to make sure I called a friend who works in pro audio to see if he could lend me an amp to swap for troubleshooting. He supplied a 400 watt amp that he uses for PA systems. I thought, oh boy, what will that sound like. But it was a revelation. First, it is my Classe that is going. But ... the sound. At first it sounded a little "thin" but after a few minutes, it was obvious that this was a much better presentation of the material. We listened to Boulez' cummings ist der dichter from the excellent Erato recording and some tracks from the equally excellent new Innova recording of pieces by Jeremy Beck. Everything was in its place and just as it should be, no added warmth or profiling. Timbre, stage, dynamics, transients, balance and placement of instruments in the orchestral sound field all spot-on faithful. That from a nuts and bolts pro audio machine. Quite a few implications here.
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stspur - I second what Beetle says, and I'll add my personal perspective. I haven't lived with 3.6s, but I picked up a pair, thanks to this forum, which I measured and listened to and as mentioned was thoroughly impressed. Regarding upgrade in general, be very careful. Hundreds of man-hours went into selecting and voicing those particular components for the job. You could spend a lot and do worse. But, on the other hand, there are some better components available. First, let's survey what's in there.
The coils would be hard to beat with the exception of foil. But foil might require value tweaking of the circuit, since the resistance to inductance ratio is different for foil. The wire is CDA-101 aerospace grade OFHC with first-class winding.
The resistors were developed in-house and are very good within their budget constraints. But Mills MRAs are better. Safe swap. Consider doubling in the signal path.
Caps are upgradable, especially the lytics. Those VersaTronics lytics are stellar, industrial, long life caps. BUT, film is better. The "S" is indeed Solen. In the day it didn't get any better. Depending on your vintage, they are either made in France or Canada from French film, which was considered tied for best of form with a German film. Later, North American consumption was wound in Canada with same equipment and specs. Great caps. Those yellow caps are a foundation of Thielness. We found and bought a best of form German cap starting with the 2.2 in 1990. They are styrene film on Tin foil @ 1uF (usually within 1%). When the German company went out of business, we bought the remaining foil and film and contracted a California aerospace cap maker for what produced 60,000 caps. When that stash was gone, ERSE made a clone from a world-class Japanese film and foil. Eventually (we found from Beetle's late 2.4SEs) the cap was cloned in China with not necessarily lower quality.
An interesting experiment (which I haven't yet gotten to) would be to replace the 4 parallel yellow 1uF tweeter feed caps with a 4uF CSA or CMR. Clarity's ("C") copper alloy end caps are a game changer. That swap should have no circuitry implications. We would all love to hear the outcome.
As stated, electrolytics may drift over time and their sonic signature is less than best. In Thiels they are always bypassed by the yellow styrene / foil 1uF. But you could upgrade to CSA in the series feed circuits - the parallel shunts are meaningful, but less important and harder to justify for space and expenditure. The midrange feed has 2 parallel 100uF lytics. If you can fit CSA's, try it. The tweeter feed has an 8.2uF which I have targeted for a 630volt Clarity CMR.
There are various upgrade stragegies, I have 3, but most require additional real estate, which is why I am migrating to outboard crossovers. They also require the ability to tweak values, especially in the parallel shunts which are tuned to driver resonances. It would be easy to make things worse. My personal perspective is to be cautious, heed the advice from this thread, and make any changes incrementally. Swapping resistors would be a safe start. If you are a cable guy, you might consider dual inputs. And if so, and if you're my kind of crazy, you might take the woofer XO out of the cabinet and 3-4' away from the electromagnetic soup, as my 2.2 experiments have suggested.
Of course I and others here would appreciate your feedback. I gave this public response to reach more people than a PM would. But, we must beware of overwhelming those with less technical interests.
Does anybody remember the original Thiel motto? "For the Love of Music".
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@jafant Yes i like the Dag build quality, sound is phenomanal, very refined and a little warm just what we need for Thiel speakers.Also Dag is knowned for it's power delivery doubling all the way down to 2 ohms.I can see driving the Dad S250 directly from a Totaldac d1-direct + d1-driver.That would be a simple and very neat system.Cheers.
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last_lemming
One of my fave demo tracks that will reveal the 2.4's capability- Pearl Jam "Oceans". Incredible dynamics for a 90's Rock recording. The passive radiator really enhances the bottom end.
Play it LOUD!
Happy Listening!
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@last_lemming I haven't found Thiels to be particularly power hungry. I'm sure some are but some definitely aren't. I've had my 2 2s hooked up to very moderate amps and they've sounded great. |
last_lemming
2nd note- good to read that you re-considered against selling the CS 2.4 loudspeaker. Big mistake, IMO.
Happy Listening!
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last_lemming
Right On! Yes- the CS 2.4 can absolutely play well with as little as 60wpc. Your 12x13 room provided the icing on the cake.
My 1st encounter with the 2.4 was in a small room (not exact on actual dimensions?). I always go into any demo with my living room in mind and Soundscape's room was smaller indeed. In reflection, the presentation and sound was perfect. And to think, a small Creek integrated amp was provided the aural pleasure. I was and am hooked!
Happy Listening!
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stspur
I will concur w/ beetle- "S" most likely means Solens.
Great job!
Happy Listening!
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So today, just on whim, I decided to move my 2.4’s in my secondary rigs small 12 x 13 room to see how they would fare on the ARC Classic 60 amp/Herron 1a preamp. The amp only has 60 watts a channel, and I thought it would be anemic on the power hungry Thiels.
In short, I was waaay wrong. Not only did the ARC drive it, but 2.4’s sounded better than they ever did with the Parasound A21/BAT preamp combo. The bass was outstanding, but I think that had more to do with the smaller room. Its so good I’ll be moving the Thiel’s permanently in there. And to think I was thinking about selling them.
Anybody else have a similar experience? |
@stspur
The “S” are probably Solens. Those were probably pretty good for their time but the Claritys should be notably better. Pretty cool to see “Thiel” on those resistors just like Tom wrote. Still, I would upgrade those to MRAs, especially if direct feed to the driver. Also, those coils look high quality, again “Acousta-coil” like Tom has written. I would leave those although tempting to try a foil inductor if on direct feed path to midrange or tweeter. As long as you’re in there you should replace all the electrolytics. Ideally switch these to film caps but if space and budget don’t allow at least put in fresh ELs.
$0.02
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thieliste
The DAG is certainly a sonic match for Thiel Audio speakers.
Beauty and Power in a single case. You owe it to yourself to find an audition.
Happy Listening!
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Jafant if you are in NYC go hear Mimas at Johnny Rutan in NJ
and yes the Ayre is fantastic amp |
dhoff01
Excellent! I do believe that you are the first to mix/match Accuphase and Ayre (similar to mix/match Accuphase and Cary). Those are pretty exclusive Audiophile brands. Good to learn that they are a sonic match w/ our beloved Thiel speakers.
Happy Listening!
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stspur
Thank You for the XO update. There are several 3.6 owners on the Panel that can benefit from your upgrade project. Keep up the excellent DIY work!
Happy Listening!
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tomic601
Good to see you again.
Only if I can obtain a demo in Atlanta. I really enjoyed the synergy of Ayre amp and universal player. Very tough to beat.
Happy Listening!
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Just wanted to update you guys on my XO progress with my 3.6s. I removed the woofer and was able to confirm my ability to remove the XO. I originally thought it would be a more laborious process but, fortunately, all seams pretty modular and accessible thanks to the Thiel team's ingenuity. My goal is to have an end result as close to original spec as possible unless an upgraded set of parts would clearly enhance the sound without changing the overall character. To this end, I would like to select parts accordingly. So far I have Claritycaps CSAs and Mills MRA-12s on my list. I do have some hesitation, after reading Tom's historical background on Jim's resistors, to consider leaving them in place if they would stilI be in good working order. I'm also probably going to leave the coils alone. I need some advice on the remaining XO parts which I am unable to identify. Any chance I could get you guys to check out this photo (below) to identify the large yellow capacitors and what their values might be? I couldn't find any markings. Also, beetlemania, I stand corrected that the electrolytic caps are NOT Claritycap SAs as I originally posted. I thought on my first exploration, with bad lighting, that they were. After further investigation, they look similar but have a big "S" printed on them. Any of you guys have an idea what brand they are? Also, in general, which parts would still be worth keeping in place? https://photos.app.goo.gl/bUctYBhfecLYzWdi9 |
Jafant is the Aesthetix Mimas on your audition list ? |
Pops - most of my Lexington time was on Georgetown Road, where we started Thiel Audio, around the corner from the Kentucky Horse Park, where I rode my bike nearly every decent day. Secretariat was exemplary of his Bold Ruler line in being interactive and playful. His grandson that I bred added a dash of mischief. He would do things like untie the girls' shoe laces or pick them up from their belt, and could unlatch a safety gate latch. Lovely and capable family of horses.
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Hi Tom Thiel. Thanks for your insight on the 3.6. Btw, I lived in Lexington in the early 80’s on Georgetown Road a couple of miles from the Horse Park. Nice living and beautiful country.
Lived across the street from a horse farm no surprise. I still have an 8 mm film of Secretariat running towards us while visiting Calumet Farms one day. He came right up to the fence for a nice rub. We were in shock that he was so accessible! |
jafant - they work quite well together. Ayre’s output was measured by Stereophile at 150 ohms (balanced), whereas the Accuphase has a balanced input of 40k. The Ayre was much lower than the Cary, which tested higher than the specs showed (again according to Stereophile).
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If i ever decide to get a pair of 3.7s again i'll most likely try to find a demo Dagostino Momentum S250 stereo amp to drive them.
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