utrak
Good to see you here again. Thank You for the update and confirmation via Rob's help regarding your 3.0 loudspeakers. 36 years and going strong is incredible!
Happy Listening!
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utrak
glad to hear that your 3.0s are now back to full life, as they deserve.
I guess that Rob Gillum at Coherent Source Service is the only one that can provide the right spare parts nowadays. I purchased a full set of spare driver for my 3.6s because my intention is to keep these speakers lifetime, no other Jim Thiel in the view for the moment, he was not one among others, he was a unique talented engineer that we miss, a lot.
Luckily we still have Tom, his brother as part of living history of this amazing brand, thanks Tom being so active here, thanks Tom being so active here, your competence is great as your humility. Even if I gonna to buy another pair of top speakers in the next future, something based on trasmission line with 18" woofer Thiel will remain with me.
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Hi Everybody, About a year ago, I posted about a problem I was having with my Thiel CS
3.0s that had not been used for many years.
The soundstage was off and it seemed to follow the speaker. It wasn’t obvious whether it was the
crossover, midrange, or tweeter. Well,
after a lot of help from Rob Gillum at Coherent Source Service, I was able to
determine that it was the tweeter. I
also verified that the 36-year-old crossover was in great shape and all of the
caps were in spec.
The rest of my system now consists of a PS Audio PWD II
w/bridge, Dodd battery tube preamp, and a Pass X150.8 amp, which replaced a
pair of ASL Hurricane tube monoblocks. My
acoustically treated room is small (11’ x 16’ x 10’) so I’m not using the bass
equalizer. I also use REW room
correction software. After installing the tweeter that Rob sent, I think that my CS3.0s sound amazing, especially considering
the fact that they are 36 years old and 5 of the 6 drivers and the crossovers are
original.
I also wanted to thank whoever brought up the OCOS speaker
cables earlier. I have a 30-year-old triple run
pair that I wouldn’t have considered using had it not been for this thread. I installed them and they are definitely better
than the off-brand cables I was using. I
guess that I’ll have to throw in the Magnan Vi interconnects next 😊
I was trying to find a pair of 2.4s but the 3.0s sound good
enough for me for now.
Thanks again everybody,
utrak
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dsmarschall
welcome into Thiel's family, you will be pleased by your "new"fantastic 3.6 as I daily do.
If I can, and whether you plan to keep these jewels for long time, I suggest to purchase some strategical spare driver as I did, one tweeter and one mid, they are the most critical parts in this wonderful project and the "real" original drivers start to be very hard to find due to the poor stock available nowaday, furthermore keep in mind that only the original part number will assure the sound performance as intended by Jim Thiel.
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Looking at Tomthiel's virtual system page is like to jump in one of the best dream you can have: Thiel loudspeakers factory operating at its max, well alive and the feeling of a lot of love for music in the air.
Compliments Tom!
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dsmarschall
Welcome! Good to read that you found us. What other gear including cabling rounds out your system? I look forward in reading more about your musical tastes.
Happy Listening!
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I bought a pair of 3.6 and have a pair of prima Luna mono blocks powering them , sounded really good and added a pair of rel sh/5 subs. This package sounds incredible. |
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vair68robert
Nice score on the amp. This leaves plenty of money for the next upgrade via Steve and company.
Happy Listening!
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@beetlemania
I have thought of a way to connect the wiring with faston connectors ,
I'll attach the female end to a 14 gauge solid wire that is soldered
in/on the soldering rings and the male on the wire .
This will allow me to install the wires first and be able to remove the boards as I replace componets .
I'm also thinking ( again ) of using the 15.5awg , partconnexion has
Cardas wire on sale $1.95/ft
( I buy it from Michael Percy with price matching ) .
you can contact me by e-mail ( from page 155 ) .
So far it looks like the total cost would/should be $600 max to be spread out over 3 or 4 months ,
not bad considering that over 8 months I spent $1300 on the amp .
Rob
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beetlemania
Thank You for your continued DIY approach towards improving our beloved loudspeakers. Your hard work has not gone un-noticed.
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Thank You for the follow up. Your room/space is pretty close to the image I had pictured- a cool lab of sorts. Hope you are well this Spring day.
I look forward in reading about your continued experimental successes.
Happy Listening!
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@vair68robert Sounds like you have a solid plan for an upgrade path and Tom might have some ideas for you. Here’s my two cents. Do you have the schematic? If you’re on a budget you should target the parts in the feeds, rather than shunts, and prioritize the coax filters over the woofer (CS2.7 has electrical XO for the coax, right? CS2.4 coax is mechanical). That said, I was able to hear a difference among two voltages of otherwise identical capacitors in the woofer shunts, so *everything* should be assumed to make at least some sonic difference. I recommend replacing as many resistors as possible on both boards as this makes a nice sonic difference for relatively little cost. Some of the CS2.7 values cannot be matched directly with MRAs, you will have to get creative with parallel and series replacements to get the correct resistance and power ratings. I noticed that PartsConnection has better pricing than Sonic Craft right now. Clarity Cap CSA is a great sounding cap and a good value. Higher voltage has thicker film and this is desirable for the midrange where our ears are most sensitive. The downside is higher voltage caps are larger and more costly. CMR is said to be a step up from CSA but I haven’t heard these. You might also consider a bypass (1% or less total capacitance) on coax feed caps. I used Multicap RTX and heard an improvement in transients and, maybe, improved resolution. I was curious to also try CMR (Tom offered that as an option), Audyn True Copper Max, and/or Jupiter copper foil as bypasses. I dropped those plans after I put in the Cardas which just put the “cherry on top” of all the sonic improvements I heard along the way. A couple of other things you might consider . . . 1) electrolytic capacitors will drift with age and this type is sonically inferior to film type, even if in a shunt position. The downside is replacing ELs with film is costly and requires far more space. You would need to make an entirely new board to replace that 400 uF EL with film caps. 2) Foil inductors are said to be an improvement over coils. I have ERSE FoilQ in the feed paths for both the coax and woofer boards. I did not make this particular sonic comparison, however, because I replaced the caps and inductors together.
Finally, Tom had cautioned me that such wholesale replacement of parts could upset the sonic balance in unpredictable ways and that one check was to compare the total resistance of the circuit before and after. I didn’t do this until after I replaced all the resistors but my final boards are within 2% of both the OEM boards with Mills MRAs and the values on my copy of the CS2.4 schematic (the CS2.4 woofer filter is almost a flow through, <1 ohm). |
Rob - try me at tom thiel at sign worldpath dot net.
Tom
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@tomthiel
Thank you for contacting R.G., I've called a couple of times without an answer and no I haven't received your e-mail ( darn it ) .
Please tell us more about your wire experiments .
@beetlemania
Thanks for the idea about replacing the 25 watt resistors .
I will be using Mills resistors , replacing the ERSE caps
with Clarity CSAs and one CMR and am concidering the 68uf Topmay caps with Clarity CSAs .
I have decided to use Cardas 17.5 awg chassis wire for speaker connections while increasing to 15.5 awg to the crossover boards .
I have been inventoring and pricing the parts ( that I can see the values ).
I took out the Mid/tweeters ( and seperated the wires ) and one woofer
to see how easy or difficult it would be .
And have you made your finial determination about speaker cable connecting ?
@jafant
I understand the idea of keeping it stock because of it's uniqueness ,
but since I started looking into the quality of the componets I want to improve what I have , besides I think there are 8 other pairs out there .
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unsound
Geared toward home theater or 5/7.1 audio systems- Yes.
Happy Listening!
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beetlemania
Modding unique (only) -yes.
I would keep that particular pair (stock unique).
Happy Listening!
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I would consider keeping your CS 2.7 loudspeakers as is, experimental/unique Swapping that multistrand for Cardas would also be unique, no? |
^Geared for the home theatre crowd. |
unsound
I have heard many PP owners report that this speaker was made for a challenging/difficult room or space. Keep us posted on your project.
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Thank You for the follow up on Rob Gillum. Good to read that he is well and (hopefully) working during this down cycle.
Happy Listening!
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vair68robert
I would consider keeping your CS 2.7 loudspeakers as is, experimental/unique. It would be interesting to learn if there are other Nashville models that exhibit the same wiring configuration?
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Thank You for posting pics in Virtual Systems. Very cool !
Happy Listening!
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vair68robert
We contact each other by personal email/phone outside of Audiogon's personal message (PM) system.
A'gon's system can act tricky at times. It helps to spell out the words to your personal email address and/or phone number.
Hope this is helpful.
Happy Listening!
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Rob - I suspect that the only substantive difference between your 2.7 XOs and KYXOs is the wire. There may be small component value differences to compensate for the wire. Rob G. says all the 2.7s were built in Lex under his supervision. So your Tennessee Thiel's seem to be experimental. Let me know if you got the private email I sent to you.
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Question: What was the outcome of the electrical drain off the driver baskets. Awhile ago someone (Thieleste?) did a comparison. All comments welcome.
Background: I am working on thermal stabilization and that might interface with electrical draining if it is beneficial.
ThanksTom
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@vair68robert
Looks like at least one 25W resistor on each board. That 2 Ohm on the coax board could be replaced with parallel 4 ohm Mills MRA-12s. That would yield a 24W rating. Close enough, I think. The CS2.4 has a 30 ohm resistor on its coax board. Tom had me use parallel 60 ohm for more surface area and improved thermal management. I bought mine from Sonic Craft. Had to mix and match from the older Mills and newer Vishay Mills to get the proper values at each position. Mine are all 12W versions, OEM sandcasts were 10W, so I gained a spot of headroom.
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I suggest checking with Rob G re spare parts . |
@tomthiel, speakers must be placed on built in shelf.
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Beetle and Rob - I got an answer from RG that all pre-sale (2013) CS2.7s were made in Lexington, with PtP, parts like Rob's, etc. but with standard 18 solid twist hookup wire. We think this pair was a trial at New Thiel and we're investigating whether any parts values were changed to accommodate the different wire configuration.
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Unsound - Problematic rooms and PowerPoint 1.2s seem to be made for each other.
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@beetlemania
Thank you for the compliment ,.
It was the wiring and my attempt to advise other 2.7 owners about a tweek ( seperating the wires ) that Tom informed me that I own
FrankenThiel speakers !
My next project will be to replace the wires , first I would like to
replace/ upgrade and increase awg to the crossover boards .
But it looks like I would have to disassemble the speaker ,
so I would also replace/upgrade the wires to the speakers ,
that is where I am at a crossroad ( with plenty of time to think about it ) ,
to use Cardas 18.5 awg to all the speakers , to increase that to 15.5
or to have 3 different gauges like you've done .
Resistors might be next , depending on how difficult the wiring project turns out to be .
Mills does not manufacture 25 watt resistors , so only the 10 watt
ones can be replaced by Mills .
I am really suprised to here that you see that the parts quality
is higher that your OEM 2.4SE !
But very happy about it .
It would be great to be able to see Kentucky crossovers and compare them to my Tennessee crossovers , maybe the only difference are the wires .
Rob
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@vair68robert Thanks for posting pics of your CS2.7 crossovers. Fascinating to see that compared to my FST (China)-sourced boards that were OEM in my CS2.4SE. Yours are point-to-point on Masonite compared to my PCB (@tomthiel says PTP was the Thiel protocol for most of the company's history). Also, your parts quality is definitely higher than my OEM boards. Other than the excellent Clarity SAs on the coax feeds, I had CYC MKT (polyester!) caps, loosely wound coils, and unlabeled resistors. But I was probably most surprised to see that multi-strand hookup wire on your boards (reminds me of what I used for speaker cabling when I had a mid-fi system). My OEM hookup wire was solid core (18 ga) the + and - wound to 3 twists per inch. Tom told me that was the Thiel standard. Your boards seem to be a quasi Frankenstein of classic and new Thiel (mostly in a good way!). I wonder if yours are typical of all CS2.7.
But my Tom Thiel-designed boards are a whole 'nuther level! If you're inclined, you might play with upgrading the parts quality on your boards. An easy and affordable place to start is to replace those sandcast resistors with Mills MRAs. I replaced all of my resistors for about $100 - that was my first upgrade before the full rebuild.
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@tomthiel, Thanks! Looking to help a dear friend set up a system in a rather problematic room.
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Virtual system - I posted some photos of my unique setup.
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Unsound - the SCSs seem fairly invisible here. My slight experience might help a little. The SCS is essentially a grown-up O2 - 6.5" ported two-way with polarity correct second order crossovers. They produce a decent step response and frequency response and can handle more power more easily than first order XOs. The SCS designation began with Thiel's first coincident / concentric driver in 1989. The specs and general performance of any generation will be similar with more modern iterations having more serious driver technologies and improved port loading, with more sophisticated performance.
I have 3 pair of O2s and a single SCS4. Side by side, the SCS4 has greater detail and nuance, but its overall musical impression is fairly similar to the O2 from 1976. As models progressed, the ports migrated from single to dual to rounded outlet to flared horn outlet which gradually reduced port air velocity and chuffing, creating better room coupling.
The ear-brain does an interesting thing with the fundamental frequencies. Any distortion there serves to slur the upper harmonics - the auditory brain interprets all sound from the bottom up. I am working with a very exciting technology, modeled on shark skin, that organizes the wave launch from the port, thereby cleaning up the entire spectrum to an unexpected degree. Not ready to show, but will upgrade any ported speaker, including Thiel O2, O4, SCS (all), CS1, 1.2, 1.6 and CS2. Stay tuned.
FYI: I picked up a single SCS4 for a couple hundred bucks and looking for another one to make a pair.
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jafant
I beleive Tom was stearing me to you about setting up the virtual system page .
Thank you for the positive praise .
Can you advise or help us to contact each other outside of Audiogon ,
I am not an insider .
Rob |
tomthiel
how is progress with Virtual System going?
Happy Listening!
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What is the value sweet spot generation for used THIEL SCS’s?
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tomthiel
PM sent. Happy Listening!
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vair68robert
A very clean, nice looking room and system on your Virtual page.
Well done.
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
directions to Virtual System set-up;
Click on your avatar/pic above this post.
Click on marketplace feedback (gray box) under your profile page.
Click on Explore (top of webpage-yellow banner under the word Audiogon.
Click on Virtual Systems -center page white/gray speaker image.
Click on Create System - again yellow banner top page under the word Audiogon.
I am sure there is another way or two, this is how I set mine.
Off duty tonight. PM me for assistance and have fun!
Happy Listening!
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vair68robert
Thank You for the additional information on your unique CS 2.7 loudspeakers. Being in Oregon, you are not too far from beetle as opposed to Tom in the northeast and me in the deep South.
Happy Listening!
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Tom
I posted my e-mail address on page 155 ,
I'm not an insider so if e-mailed I can send pictures . |
Rob - JAFant or others here know how to create a virtual system page for all to share. I'll PM you to try to connect behind the curtain.
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Tom , jafant and all Thiel owners .
I just created a virtual system for all to see and comment on .
Tom how can I get pictures to you ?
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Robert - you might be right about assembly. Rob G. said that all 2.7s were built in Lexington, but he was not in the Tennessee loop after they moved. The brands you state are Classic Thiel brands, except Topmay, which I don't recognize (but I'm not in the loop either.) The inductors are most probably Thiel inductors. Thiel bought quantity high purity wire and made small inductors in house and farmed larger values out to custom winders including ERSE who bought long-term supplier AcoustaCoil.
Can you please describe your internal wiring scheme? I'm curious what they tried, and also if they made any component value adjustments to compensate. Good pix of your XOs and/or values for me to compare with the stock schematic would be helpful. But, only if you are diving in anyhow.
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Thaks Tom
I didn't want to speculate until I was able to talk with R.G. ,
I was thinking that somehow the last speakers being assembled
were shipped to " ThielAudio " in Tennessee unassembled and they were using this wire for thier new line of speakers .
There were 9 2.7s and 9 1.7s sold by them on E-bay .
I live in Eugene Oregon so comparing them would be great if there are any 2.7 owners around .
I would love to exchange pictures of the crossovers or at least see what they look like having come from Kentucky .
Mine have Erse , Topmay and Clarity caps including one made for Thiel ,
with Erse and Xicon resistors ,
I can't see who makes the inductors .
While I have been second guessing myself on re-wiring the speakers ,
this uniqueness or oddity might give me the incentive to go ahead with the project .
jafant
When I was looking to replace my Carver M1.0t
Arye and Pass labs were considered but still way over my budget
even in the used market , maybe someday.
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Robert - oops, I forgot where you got them. Nonetheless, they are unique, and were modded after New Thiel went to Nashville. I can speculate that New Thiel was experimenting with different internal wiring. I know they were experimenting with ultra-caps, etc. I wonder if your 2.7s have better than stock XO parts.
Dennis Crossen, the development engineer, was quite experienced and talented. I suspect that whatever you have has merit. Considering my present exploration of wire configurations, I certainly would love to learn how your 2.7s compare to stock. Can you arrange a comparison and give us a report?
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