Thiel Owners

beetlemania

my pleasure. I am really looking forward to the next session with an Ayre spinner. Alan did remark that any Ayre amp would not mate well to a Thiel CS5 nor 7.2 speaker. Much more current is required for those models specifically. I will try to get closer to "40" during next demo.
I rather enjoyed the presentation and sound yesterday.

Happy Listening!

Pretty sure I once heard a V-1 with the CS7.2, no issues just music. CS5 I’ve not heard ever but agree that most Ayre amps probably not be the best match. The “40” on the indicator is for my specific combo of amp and source! I can probably calculate the typical clipping level for the combo you have below.

Cool Jafant - sounds like a great day!  I still have my Classe CA200 amp and meridian Digital player I bought from HiFi Buys around 22 years ago when I lived there!

thanks stevecham, you're making me a believer!

jafant - nice review and hope to read several more from you!

my compliments on this most excellent, civil and collaborative thread ! Many thanks Jafant.

I am working a trade for a pair of 2.3 with some updated drivers ( mid/tweeter and xover ) , dont have them as yet but will post when I do. I worked at a Thiel dealer in late 70’s early 80’s ( Audio Connection Huron, Ohio ) so I certainly appreciate the brand, history and especially Jim T and his engineering and principle driven approach. I am certain I met Jim while at CES in Chicago, probably at the Drake.
While I am a big Vandersteen fan, I do look forward to having a pair of Thiel in the arsenal !

Jim

also, appreciate the review of Alan’s great HiFi Buys in Atlanta. I have over the years bought a bunch of gear there and have always been spoiled by him and his team. 
best

Jim

Thank You! Panel. It was a very good day indeed. The factor that impressed me most - Alan did not down-sell the Ayre integrated.
On the other hand, Alan did not try to up-sell the regular separates nor Twenty separates for a substantial monetary margin. We all know this is a rarity among dealers/retailers. A few of you guys have contacted me via PM to report a previous connection with Mr. Alan Jones going way back, in some instances. One thing is certain, this gentleman knows Thiel Audio loudspeakers.

Happy Listening!

tomic601
Good to see you here again. I look forward in reading more contributions from you soon.  Happy Listening!

brayeagle

I have not forgot about you. I am still attempting to procure a Bryston 4B3 audition with a dealer/retailer north of Atlanta. Hope you are well today and enjoying your system. Stay tuned.

Happy Listening!

pops 

my pleasure. We know that Classe' is a favorite match with Thiel speakers.  Meridian remains a digital favorite among many Audiophiles at large.  Happy Listening!

thosb

stevecham is a subwoofer reliable source, as is, John Ellison over on Audio Asylum.  Happy Listening!

tomic601 - I would be most appreciative to learn the nature of the 2.3 upgrades. Beetlemania and I are working on the 2.4 and I have heard rumors that some folks have plugged in 2.4 drivers and XO to the 2.3 cabinet. If you have first-hand information about such an undertaking, it would help me assess the territory.

@tomthiel. i also meant to thank you and pass on my admiration for the great work you and brother did. And condolences. So very happy to hear you are reinvigorated and moving the ball forward again - rebirth is possible !!!!

my understanding is they are factory supported updates w dual magnets and related xover changes. I take delivery sometime Mid February and will get you serial numbers, photos, then.

My brother still has a pair of 02 circa 1979 ish..running strong !!!!!!

best !

Jim

jafant,

I’m patiently waiting. :-) :-) :-)

Meanwhile,we’re awaiting for the polar vortex to hit us. (Forecast for minus 7 wind chill tomorrow.)
I grew up in the Sonoran Desert, where the two most-hated four-letter curse words were Cold and Snow.
George

Jim - please keep us apprised of how the 2.3s do for you. The original 2.3 coax was the pioneer coax. Do you know when its upgrade happened?

My original prototype Brazilian Rosewood O2s from 1976 we given to our parents as an early appreciation gift for their support. They are in storage at my youngest brother's house in Virginia; I'll get them this summer and, of course, soup them up a little. The O2 actually started the audiophile ball rolling. The O1 was a 10" 2-way Rock-n-Roll Boogie Machine with 3rd order slopes and huge magnets for high efficiency and the EQ for 30 Hz bass . . .  but not much finesse. Some early supporters asked if Jim could design something more refined, which became the O2 6.5" ported 2-way with second order slopes. Quite lovely for its day. I will apply the boundary-layer airflow technology under present development to the port and driver circumferences, add some absorption to the baffle to reduce diffraction and upgrade the passive components. And I bet we'll have a sweet little bookshelf monitor.

Thank you,
Tom

@jafant Looks like either a qx-5 or dx-5 into an ax-5 will clip at about “40” on the indicator, assuming full output CD such as most rock recordings. Only a small difference between the models. This is for XLR connections. RCA will be more like “44”. This also assumes a stock AX-5. Apparently, there is a version with 6 dB gain resistors, so that will modify accordingly. Keep in mind this is not an exact science and other factors can influence the onset of clipping. 

@tomthiel I can’t wait to hear your airflow technology. I’m wondering how that might modify image density.

You guys facing inclement weather -stay safe and warm out there.

Beetle - patents are in the works, so no substantive news yet. I am beta-developing the technology using the CS1.6 as my test mule. The 1.6 / 1.7 slotted port is unusual in its airflow dynamics. Ports care where they are placed in their enclosures. The 1.6 long slot side-steps some of those placement issues by being placed in the lower chamber at large. So its airflow dynamics are more complex than usual, since the broad placement creates a gradient of interface parameters with the enclosure resonances.

I can report first-hand that the slot works.
I can also report that the interface technology will improve it as well as improve speakers in general - a fluid dynamics solution for fluid dynamics problems.

Plenty more to tell when I can.

Beetle - I have heard A-B comparisons only with Tannoy speakers in a good large room with decent sources. These demos were professional, not high-fi. I would not say there was any particularly tangible imaging involved. What everyone including myself heard was a cohesive solidity in the harmonic structure of the sound field - natural detail and realness entered the scene, akin to the proverbial lifting of the veil where none had been evident. I would call the effect extraordinary and surprising.

Within the month I expect to have a customized kit of materials to apply to the 1.6s for direct A-B comparison and SpectraFoo analysis in my studio.

beetlemania

Thank You for the hot tip. The reading tells us that a 301 ohm resistor can switch out to a 619K ohm resistor. Is this where the extra 6db of gain results? Have you made this particular change to your AX-5 Twenty?
I plan to consult Alan about this matter during my next visit.

Happy Listening!

brayeagle
I am patient as well. I had planned a Bryston audition during the holiday stretch, but the dealer/retailer (Engulf Audio) did not show? Onward and upward. Stay safe and warm.

Happy Listening!

@jafant I have the stock resistors. I suspect the 6 dB gain version is for people with low gain phono setups. I have a TT but my cartridge and phono stage work well with my amp albeit the gain is plainly down compared to my DAC (and with hirez I rarely listen to vinyl anymore). Regardless, the stock version works well with my 2.4s.

@tomthiel That is very interesting and I look forward to reading your report. Do you imagine the technology will eventually extend to the other Thiel models or just those few with a slot port?

beetlemania
I see. I will combine a CD/SACD player which ever way I go.
I do not own any Vinyl. I wonder where the clipping point lies with Ayre separates? I will consider shooting out both integrated and separates on the next demo.  Keep up the excellent XO work!

Happy Listening!

Happy Friday! All.

Beetle - the airflow technology addresses any and all airflow situations. A high-impact situation is port flow; in a sense that is low hanging fruit. There are many other situations that apply to all speakers. I am looking at back-wave implications for the passive radiator and all drivers. Bass frequencies move more air, but all frequencies have potential. The flair around driver circumferences may come into play, especially at coupling frequencies where the driver transitions from constant velocity to constant acceleration. Air viscosity and turbulence are prevalent in such transitions. We're looking at the rim between the tweeter and coax mid in my newly acquired MCS1, which shares the 2.3 coax, similar to the 2.4. The 1.6 has a significant tweeter wave guide in conjunction with an acoustic loading device to suppress the oil-can resonance peak. Hmmm, what if that interplay might be settled. 

Short answer is yes, many potential applications. The only audio implementation to date is a round port in a Tannoy monitor and augmentation of a B&W golfball textured port. My first application is the 1.6 slot to see what we learn in the higher resolution Thiel CS platform. By the way, the 2002 CS1.6 is better than I thought possible at $2K retail.

the Vandersteen aerodynamic driver patent has expired, reflections do matter
Bryston has a unique port shape also....at least in the mini-A

happy Friday to all !!!!!

For the visually inclined among you I have posted some photos on the diy audio forum.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/332679-thiel-cs2-4-xover-schematics.html#post5683434

I really enjoyed my years with the CS1.6. I had them well away from the rear wall and there was no meaningful output below 50 cycles. I gave serious consideration to adding Vandy or Thiel subs but ended up moving on. Outside of the lack of bass, my only complaint was an irritating distortion with a subset of songs from certain female vocalists. Had me reaching for the volume control. But the overall transparency and resolution was exceptional at that price point.

@holco thanks for the pics. Looks like you still have the stock 0.72 mH coil on the woofer board. Is that the one too far out of spec?

Were you able to compare SQ with and without the foil coil on the coax board?

Thanks Steve, very insightful. I gave up on my CS6's years ago.  I've gone thru a few really good amps over the years and felt something was always lacking. I still have the 6's w/ss1 but only use them maybe a week every year or so.  Class D may be in my future or get off my rear end sell them.

I've gone thru a few really good amps over the years and felt something was always lacking

I am not sure there is a perfect component.  You could spend a lot of money on something but it won't be perfect.  Every design is a compromise.  I like the CS2.4 very much but I always feel like there's something it could do better, but of course this is also true for any speakers in the world regardless of cost.

@jafant I did try the Bryston cubed series with my 2.4's and wasn't pleased with how the played together.  The build quality was superb on that amp...it really was like audio jewelry if you will.  But in my room I needed to warm up the Thiels and fill out the midrange and lower midrange and the Pass Labs amp (X series, not the XA or XS series - I was specifically told by Pass that the X series would mate better with the Thiels than the XS).  I had the 7bcubed in my house for about a week.  Couldn't get it to work well with the 2.4's at all.

beetlemania,

There are still questions about the Wax coils values, my LCR meter indicates that they are too high in value, they are sent to Jantzen and according to them they are within the specs, next week I get them back and can tell more.

For the time being they have not been in the woofer crossovers yet.     

Regarding the Jantzen foil coils on the coax board (which were part of the last total upgrade), I can not say anything specifically about what only the foil coils do in the whole picture, but the entire upgrade gives a significant improvement in SQ!! the key points that I hear are even more air than before, now it is as if the space embraces you and takes you to the room where the music actually plays out, also the width of the spatial image is now more outside the speakers and also more forward , the naturalness is also very impressive !!

All in all, I was already very happy with the CS2.4 but after the upgrades I now have speakers that I never thought I could own :-)

what strikes me is that if you press the passive woofer the active woofer (of course) comes out but then almost immediately it will slowly return to its neutral position, so there is some air leakage, is that intentionally also the intention or do I have to look for the leak?

Holco - thank you for the report.
Regarding leakage - ideally you want none, but practically a small woofer enclosure leak doesn't do much. Are both channels the same? Of serious concern is if the woofer enclosure leaks into the midrange sub-enclosure. Push both the woofer and passive and see if the midrange moves. If so, troubleshoot.

Regarding foil coils. I await your comments on that change. News from the research front: foil alloy is considerably purer than wire alloy. As I've mentioned, Thiel used 6-9s ultra aerospace wire from 1978 onward. By 1995 that wire was no longer available and we used 4-9s specified as C10100plus. That seems to be the best wire currently in use, except for specialty boutique producers such as Cardas. I have learned that ERSE, Jantzen and other high-end suppliers now top out at 3-9s C11000 @99.9% with higher oxygen allowances. Jantzen specifically disclaims audible benefits beyond this C11000 grade, etc. etc.
My personal experience is to the contrary, having spent the summer of '78 comparing wire. Some auditory brains hear the difference. I am currently exploring a solution strategy.

Beetle - your FST coils and hookup wire meet the C11000 spec. But your FST coil winding was less than best. I await your experience with Cardas hookup wire.

Audio inductor foil meets better than C10100. It is as good as the original ITT 6-9s aerospace wire that I secured in 1978. So the generally accepted higher performance of foil coils might be attributable to some combination of  foil skin effect reduction, tighter wrap and purity of alloy.

Lotta mystery.

Great that there are subjective improvements noted with the upgrade. Can we agree on objective measurements that would capture such an audible improvements and continue the Thiel tradition of both objective and subjective substantiation of improvements?

From Jim Thiel in Soundstage review of 2.4SE
http://www.soundstageultra.com/equipment/thiel_cs24se.htm


How were the improvements measured? Jim Thiel again: "The improved resolution is not the kind of thing that shows up well in measurements; the magnitude of the difference between the CS2.4 and the CS2.4SE is more easily heard than discerned from graphs. The new capacitors allow more nuance, air, detail, and decay to be reproduced by the coaxial drive unit. This was especially evident to us when listening to recordings that contained realistic reverberation, as well as recordings where the instruments were not processed heavily."

Rules - if an engineer with today's tools put his chops to it, the differences could probably be verified. It takes a lot of doing and my experience is that measurements only verify what we already learn through listening. I suspect the Klippel analysis system could show some relevant information. I don't know who might be working at such a fine level of analysis.

For the record, what Thiel would do is discern the improvement by ear, then subject the change to objective measurement. If anything could be determined to be harmed then it's "back to work". If no objective change could be measured, then it's down to cost / benefit discussion among the team.

@tomthiel 
Not that I’m an expert or professional but that approach sounds “right”. Measurements are useful for identifying problems but not necessarily helpful for indicating superior SQ. How is it that amps, for example, with similar measurements sound so different? The improvements I’m hearing in terms of resolution and transparency are undeniable but I’m doubtful there would be any meaningful difference on a frequency response or waterfall plot.

Beetle -  the measurement that would likely reflect on what you are hearing is a radical zoom-in on the onset transient impetus. The shoulder will be cleaner / sharper. Similarly the top shoulder before decay will be cleaner and simpler. Deep knowledge of the interactions between capacitance, inductance and impedance reactenances and reflectances might predict what measurements might reveal - thereby guiding measurement and evaluation strategies. But when a company is developing products on less than a one per year cycle, such measurement luxuries must be budgeted. Over the course of tens of thousands of hearing / measuring cycles, we learned what to trust and what required further verification. Note that such engineering verification was directed toward analysis for future projects and products more so than optimizing the present product. Note the systematic thematic progress from 1976 to 2009. Lots of learning, standing on one's own shoulders, so to speak.

beetlemania
Thank You for posting the CS 2.4SE review by Jeff Fritz.
It serves as a reminder on my decision to purchase the SE above all other loudspeakers I auditioned from 2011 to 2014. To my ears, nuance, was the deciding factor. Hope you are having fun today with the XO project. Keep up the outstanding work.

Happy Listening!

tomthiel
Good to see you. Hope you are well and like beetle, having fun in your Hot Rod garage/studio, with your XO projects.  Keep up the outstanding work!

Happy Listening!

A pre and post measurement with Rew is not that much work and could give something tangible to support the subjective improvement or lack of deterioration. As I gain experience and understanding of this powerful tool, I'm less reluctant to pair my observations with measurements.

FWIW, I measured freq response of a tone sweep pre and post on axis and from the listening position. Now, the microphone was simply my iPad but both channels had the same handicap. All good. Well, there was a detour but not worth typing out the story :)

Tom has more sophisticated tools but his upgrade is not as far along as mine.

what is Rew?