Thiel Owners

I was looking at Hegel H590, would be interesting to try this one out with 3.7s.It also has a buildt in DAC for people who want a very simple rig.

Does anyone have any info on the woodwork on the CS3.7? Is it solid wood or is there a veneer on it? I will talk with Rob Gillum next week or the week after Thanksgiving. In the meantime does anyone have any info on the wood panels. I would be interested to hear some feedback before I get too deep in the restoration work I am doing.

I am in the process of refinishing the wood. Rob told me to use 220-320 grit sandpaper to clean up the existing lacquer. I forgot to ask him about the composition of the wood.

Part II - This internet thing is so useful. 
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/thiel_audio_carries_on.htm

All

thieliste and Tom brings up excellent points- why does one need (2) Players? In Tom's case, the older Philips is still viable now.
The newer PS Audio, will serve well for SACD playback and other modern duties. There is something to be said about these older, reference, Cd players. All do compact disc playback very well.

Happy Listening!

thieliste

I have been chasing the Accuphase for 10 years now. Seller finally decided to sell. The Ayre mates superbly with my Integrated amp.
Once I heard the combo, I was enlightened.

Happy Listening!

@jafant  Why do you need two cd players for ?

tomthiel

I am looking forward in your comparison of the Sony ES and PS Audio PerfectWave spinners.  Have fun!

Happy Listening!

thieliste

I am fortunate to own a reference CD player (Accuphase) and reference universal player (AYRE). No streaming in my future anytime soon.

Happy Listening!

@hifi28

My 3.6s are in a room 24'x13' and with proper acoustic treatments, they work to perfection. You should be able to accomplish similar results.

See virtual system https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/6163

@hifi28 In my even smaller room I got the CS3.7 to work very good and this was with a nightmarish COAX situation (slowly resolving). My room is acoustically treated. I know almost all the posts on A’gon say the CS3.7 requires a fairly large room, I think there are ways around that. I have photos on my virtual system.

Yesterday, I thought I would see how loud I could crank the CS3.7 for 1 complete song (without lowering the volume). I only got to 85 dB on my iPhone meter. In a larger room I know for sure I would have had it much louder, based on past experiences with other speakers in bigger rooms. Makes me wonder if I should be happy with a single AHB2 (something like 292@2 Ohms) . I have not tested out if more wattage is helpful in low volume scenarios. That is last on my ToDo list.

As an update on my journey.

1) Today I fixed the broken COAX screw thread on the frame using the RECOIL kit recommended by Rob Gillum. Great stuff.

2) I bought 2 black COAXs from Rob yesterday. They may arrive before Thanksgiving but I will use the time to do #3.

3) I just bought some water based stain to put on the speaker. Now that the COAX are removed it was easy to carry the speaker to the garage to sand it down and then add 3 coats of the stuff I just bought.

One of the COAX’s was first out-of-phase. I fixed that and it sounded much better. Then today after testing the circuits with an Ohm meter I am almost 100% certain that the crossover wire for the midrange was connected to the tweeter and crossover wire for the tweeter was connected to the midrange. I have not confirmed with Rob Gillum yet. The second situation is supposed to be very very bad. I am assuming the tweeter on that COAX is damaged. The measurements did show that there was a problem on the high frequencies. This was not the fault of Thiel it was a DIY issue.

Getting close.

OK, not petty. I'll look into it.

@tomthiel, at the risk of appearing petty, it think the AudioScience review you’re referring to was by the author who goes by "amirm" not John Atkinson of Stereophile.

Unsound - thank you very much for your links to PS reviews. I will certainly wait until I read reviews on their upcoming PerfectWave SACD player.

Furthermore, I have now read John Atkinson's technical review in AudioScience of the Stellar GainCell DAC/Pre that I own. Disappointing, to say the least. Thanks again.

CS 3.6’s present a tough load on amplifiers. You would need to look at amplifiers spec’d to a minimum of 400 Watts into 2 Ohms.

My room is 12x19 would a 3.6 work?

@hifi28, For a small room, yes for:
Thiel CS 1
Thiel CS 1.2
Thiel CS 2
Thiel CS 3
Thiel CS 3.5
Vandersteen 2ce

Many years ago I'd heard several Thiel's (2's and 3.6) at CES and local dealers, I was very impressed with their sound but they all were driven but high-end high power amps. At this time I have a pair of Mark Levinson ML-11 and ML-12 power/pre amp with a pair of bookshelf speaker and a pair of subwoofers with a 200W amp. They sound good together but if I get a pair of Thiel would the ML-11 (50w into 8 ohms and 100w into 4 ohms) be enough? What about for a pair Vandersteen 2ce annually signature comparing to the Thiel? 

@tomthiel, while I truly appreciate many of PS Audio's approaches to their DACs, like the use of updateable FPGA's and I2S connections, some of there digital products measurements can give cause to pause.: 
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-ps-audio-perfe...
https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-perfectwave-directstream-da-processor-measurements

jafant - I bought the SCD-1 because it is an iconic product, it had been Thiel Audio's, and it had been upgraded. The few discs I heard on it were wonderous. I'll keep it until I get PS Audio's new PerfectWave player early 2021 and ascertain it does everything I need. The Sony machine is devoid of soft source inputs, which are becoming commonplace these days.

@jafant  Are you considering any streaming device for Qobuz or Tidal in the future or are you going to stick to your Accuphase CD player ?

tomthiel

I would like to see you revive your SCD-1 player. It is quite nice to have a dedicated CD and SACD player.  Hope that you are well and looking forward to the fast-approaching holiday season.

Happy Listening!

Happy Friday! All

unsound - the rubber pads were to add mass to lower the resonance frequency. Turned out that the center plugs did a better job of that. There were also some motor improvements. That's when Jim was getting his legs with FEA for motor geometry and all that.

I would imagine that the CS5i’s woofers without the added pads on the original CS5’s would help in that regard. I thought the “i” version was a nice improvement.

And he used the Goertz flat wire, which has the lowest characteristic impedance, which is a requirement for very low impedance speaker loads.

thielrules.  Thanks for sharing your experience removing the waveguides. 

Dspr - CS5s are a tough nut to crack. Their impedance drops to 2.5 ohms at 150Hz and keeps dropping to 1.5Hz by 20Hz, and lower at 10Hz. It devastates most amps. I don't remember for sure whether the 'improved' woofers raised that impedance a little. The CS5(i) did not prosper in the market because so few amps could drive it well. As you know, Jim used Krell, ending up with the FPB-600 which could drive a tank.

dspr - Rob at Coherent Source Service could check your serial numbers for whether yours were upgraded to the "i" status. The difference was upgraded woofers and possibly an XO tweak to compensate.

I communicated with Rob and shared pics. He confirmed that my Thiel's are CS5i's.

Makes them that much harder to give them up.

Guess I will try moving them around again and start by placing them a bit closer together although I recall I tried that and did not like it.

Thanks for listening,

Dsper

Waveguides are attached with a 3M plastic adhesive and usually come off readily. I can't recommend any tricks. The rubber goo surround fix is good. The original goo was silicone.

yyzsantabarbara

Thank You for suggesting Warren Gregoire for SCD-1 repairs.
This is a special spinner since introduction. It is pretty cool to read over the history of this player and all of the Modders that had a vision to improve upon digital playback.

Happy Listening!

bonedog

My pleasure. Take the time to read through this thread, as it is a plethora, of valuable information. We have a great Panel of experts to address your needs and requests.

Happy Listening!

tomthiel

The Sony ES SCD-1 is also coveted by Audiophiles. Perhaps it is worth the effort to repair? Keep me posted on your decision. Have fun!

Happy Listening!

My waveguides came off easily. Don't remember any difficulties separating them from the driver. To the best of my knowledge, Rob does not included the waveguide as he told me to reuse the guides. 

@thoft "I wasn’t able to free mine and gave up. They’re just in as flat"

Got it - I figured separating it would not be easy.    

I am not certain about wave guided being available from Coherent Source. I had read somewhere that he sold complete driver assemblies for  $250-$300 apiece and just assumed those included the waveguide.

Unless I hear from him soon I may just order those Madisound M13 replacements and perhaps at some point,  have a wood-turning buddy try and lathe - carve some wave guides out of  hardwood that matches the cabinets. 

'no luck so far' on the 200wpc bargain Manley I meant

Interesting discussion re. tube amps driving the 3.5s.  I just upgraded my solid state amp from and Adcom 555II to a Classe CA300 and havre been luxuriating in the power and glory.  The 3D palpability approaching tube magic - but . . . .

I keep waiting for that crazy garage sale find of a 200 wpc Manley or VTL at a price I can justify to 'She Who Must Be Obeyed' - but luck so far.

I do have a Jolida integrated tube amp on the shelf that needs service- and now  I'm wondering what that'd be like on the 3.5's at lower volumes, perhaps with the bass eq removed to lessen power demand.   

Meanwhile I'm crossing my fingers that my rubber dope temporary fix on my bad mid surround will hold until A more permanent fix is installed.

tomthiel

Excellent gear! The Philips CD-80 is still coveted by Audiophiles.
Some older, vintage pieces hold up well in 2020 moving forward.
PS Audio has a beta-tester program. Perhaps you could contact Paul for the new PerfectWave SACD player? Did Jim and Paul have any business relationship?  I am looking forward in reading about your next high resolution spinner! Have fun!

Happy Listening!

My own take on using tubes with 3.5s (I’ve used a VPI 299D integrated with mine for about three or four years now), is that component quality is as important as lots of power.

There were only 100 299Ds ever made (it was a vanity project around the time of Harry Weisfeld’s retirement) so it’s a fair bet that I’m the only guy out there who has ever used one on 3.5s.

However, Steve Leung, who hand built the 299D and designed it in collaboration with Harry, used a lot of the same internals as Primaluna deploys, including the same transformers, resistors, capacitors, point to point wiring, triode/ultra linear switching etc, so a Primaluna amp would be the easier comparative audition.

The 3.5s are great at exposing any weakness in the system, of course, but even with four EL34s in the 299D, there’s more than enough power to control these speakers really effectively.

In fact I nowadays much prefer the 34s to the optional KT150s that I occasionally install for kicks and giggles. The 150s are, of course, about as powerful as audio tubes get, but the 34s are way more musical and I find there’s no shortage of clout when using them.

I have Adcom and B&K solid state amps waiting in the wings for the most part and neither of them bests the tubes. In fact it’s really not even close.

The point of writing this is to reinforce recent comments made about how well 3.5s work with tubes. I do believe, however, that a reasonably modern design with robust wide bandwidth output/toroidal transformers is probably critical.

I wasn’t able to free mine and gave up. They’re just in as flat. I didn’t know rob machined/made new wave guides.

Interesting, FWIW, as of today TMR now has two pairs of maple CS 2.4 speakers listed for sale (having just listed the first pair yesterday, see my previous post).  For this pair they are asking $1799 + $299 shipping, with condition listed as 7 out of 10.  serial#  3601, 3602

https://tmraudio.com/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/thiel-cs2-4-floorstanding-speakers-maple-black-...

@thoft
"Bone dog my thiel 3.5 have the scanspeak 10f in them I think they sound great"

Do your 10f mids have the waveguide (shallow horn?) flange on top of the 10f's.   I thought I had read that Rob of Coherent Source had assembled mids complete with that flange for a premium price - but I have not been able to reach him.

The Madisound '13M Replacement" has a flat flange that brings the diameter to the original's I believe, but does not include the waveguide.

Does anyone know if/ how that waveguide - which appears to be epoxied or bonded to the original driver, can be removed?   It would be nice to bond it to the Madisound 13m replacement. 

The color of the foam (to my eye) does indeed match the color of the paper.

bonedog - you have the right driver. I'm working from memory of 35 years ago and I have 2 originals here. Light gray surround matches paper cone color. 13M Thiel-8521.

Thank you thoft for your taker on the 10f,   
jafant thanks for the welcome.

tomthiel Thank you for your input.  
FWIW   I have pulled the drivers and they are  labled "scan-sperak 13M Thiel  
code: 8521" .  

When I sent one back to Thiel years back they 

Those are what most everyone says are the original spec mids.   The surrounds sure look like foam to me - and gave out with tears like old foam.  Not black rubber but gray foam.

I examined the rear after pulling drivers and it also looked like foam glued to the paper cone.

@tomthiel I also have a Sony SCD-1. I had it modified by this guy,
https://sublimelistening.com/

His work is amazing and I think he could be a great person to contact for you to see about repairing your SCD-1. The Vacuum State Mods he also does take this unit to an amazing level. I still use my player and it is great.

I am planning on using my player until it dies. I was considering buying some spare parts but then you do not know who will be round to fix it. The main issue with this player is usually the sled motor. You may have a backup of that part. I suggest you give Warren G a call and see if you can get your machine up and running. It is really worth it even after all these years, especially with the mods.

The mods are described in this review.
https://www.dagogo.com/vacuum-state-electronics-sacd-modification-and-sony-scd-777es-cd-player-revie...


I have the original packaging still but the foam is no longer functional so packing it for shipping will be a chore. I imagine this would be the same for all of us with the original packaging.

Thieliste - I don't have 3.7s, but can speak in general to your listening angle question. I believe the biggest factor is the room. Jim designed all the floor-stranders to be fired straight ahead if the room can support that. Their cross points are unusually low to better balance the in-room power response with the on-axis direct response. Add the fact that drivers usually have some hot-spot beaming directly on axis - their smoothest response is around 15° off axis.

That said, nearly everyone uses them with the focal point somewhere behind your head, perhaps 5 to 10° off axis. Notable exceptions include the Thiel listening room and Tom Jung's mastering room with CS5s. Thiel speakers with their long, slow roll-offs exhibit less than perfect FR graphs, which are decidedly smoother and flatter at 15 to 20° off axis. I believe the discrepancy is that most rooms have side walls too close and too reflective to properly support Thiel's wide polar pattern. Those reflections are more onerous than the FR hot-spots on axis.

I suggest that you might try bringing the speakers closer together, perhaps 7' or even 6' C to C, and fire straight or nearly straight ahead. A 10' from baseline listening distance puts your listening angle at the 15 to 20° sweet spot. If the sound is less harsh when toed in, try instead putting some absorptive or diffractive material on the mirror-spot on the side wall. At best you can get greater image width, solid center fill, and smoother frequency response with no down-sides.

I realize I'm going against common wisdom that the wider the stance the better. In a large room like Thiel or DMP, you can get both. 9-10' spread and straight ahead with 12' listening distance approaches ideal in my experience. But smaller rooms reduce possibilities. In my opinion, most people toe in when the might be better served by narrowing the stance.

JAFant - Nothing very fancy, but chosen for neutrality and high value.I did indeed buy the Thiel Audio Sony ES SCD-1 at auction. It played a few discs beautifully and then failed. Long story shortened, I want to sell it with its upgraded internals and a back-up NOS laser to someone who can deal with it. PMs welcome.
My workhorse is a PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC/Preamp which accepts digital and analog inputs, with balanced, RCA or headphone output. Nice, flexible, affordable unit.

My CD player is Thiel's original Philips CD-80 which was their flagship in the (1985?) day. I use both analog and digital output. It holds its own in comparison with some newer, pricier stuff - and it's what I have and have known since 1985.
My turntable is a Rotel LP900 with a decent Ortophon MM cartridge. The Classé DR6 has a decent MC/MM phono preamp. 

I store downloads on a SS memory card and play through iTunes or Audacity on my MacBook Pro using USB out to the PS Stellar. Audacity supports up to PCM 24/192kHz. These days most of my production session evaluation takes arrive in the form of emailed files or on a USB stick at 24/96.

The lion's share of my everyday source material is RedBook 16x44.1 CDs. Part of that is because I track producers, recordists, mixers and mastering houses to have a better idea what I'm listening to. I make notes on the jacket. And the CD-80 has good remote control and time code for easy A/B and recall.

I know this old-school and entry level stuff is less than impressive to most audiophiles. But it works for me, and I've never been embarrassed when comparing against other gear. But of course, there is something in the works. PS Audio is introducing a PerfectWave SACD player that plays everything listed above plus SACD as raw DSD out via their I2S cable to the Stellar converter. That will give me universal high resolution capability, which I have wanted for years.

tomthiel

in your hot rod garage and studio, which sources (CD, Downloads, Vinyl) are you using to test the speakers?  I recall you bought a Sony ES SCD-1 reference player at one point.

Happy Listening!

jazzman7

Nice catch! I hope those 2.4 speakers find the next good home.

Happy Listening!

dsper

Nice room dimensions and set-up.  

Happy Listening!