I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
scubabird Welcome! Good to see you here. I would say seek out a Vandersteen 3A Signature loudspeaker. This will closely mimic a Thiel CS 2.4, CS 2.7 or CS 3.7 model. Take the time to read throught this thread for additional information on older/vintage loudspeakers. Well annotated per members of the Panel.
Wow guys - I take a break and you all go at it! Unsound alludes to a "problem" in such a long, detailed thread as this one. Lots of information would be redundant for regulars, but helpful to new participants. I appreciate it when someone directs others to where they might access the discussion.
Regarding concrete repair - look for expansive grout at Lowes, etc.
Paradisecom - congratulations on your CS2s. In many ways that is the seminal Thiel design; it took the concepts generated in the model 3 and refined them for a smaller space and source material at a lower price. The CS2 sold more units than any other Thiel product ever - over 11,000 units. All the Renaissance work I am doing on the CS2.2 will be retrofittable to the CS2. Regarding black laminate - what a trip. I wanted to bring a polished lacquer piano black finish into an affordable form. It became sadly clear that was impossible. Material flaws, along with susceptibility to damage in production and/or shipping and use led to price increases and unhappy customers. It remained in the stable at an upcharge, but we never promoted it due to its difficulties.
Thoft - you have a problem. My 3.5s measure 4.8 ohms DC resistance which seems right for their performance impedance curve. Rob Gillum can help you troubleshoot. If it comes to replacing parts, consider the upgrades we’ve been talking about here.
Scubabird - Rob’s answer #3 invalidates part of my previous response about Thiel revisions. Sounds like 3.7 revision 2 was to recalibrate the changes made by migrating to PC boards. BTW: I agree with Rob on liking P to P on Masonite better than PC boards. Go to Rob for any problem - he has made and repaired every aspect of every Thiel product since 1988.
Regarding the Benchmark AHB2 amps. I would appreciate public discussion here driving Thiels. They are in my stable and your collective opinion would help me calibrate their performance compared with other high-performance amps, which I don’t have access to.
Papasmove - good score on Jim’s Krell FPB-600. I was your auction under-bidder - dropped out because I have no business owning that. FWIW, that amp was routinely upgraded. Dan D would send Jim the latest tweaks for his feedback. Rob G was prepared to spend up to $10K for it, but deferred to me who dropped out. Good score.
Back to the lab. I’m getting close to tri-amping, bi-amping, single amping comparison on the 2.2s.
@scubabird I think the KEF's are a bit like the Thiel's with the same type of tweeter and midrange combination (some similar sonic characteristics). I went from the Thiel SCS4 to the KEF LS50 and now to CS3.7. I preferred the LS50 in a smaller room over the SCS4. SCS4 could play better in the larger room.
I got some feedback to my driver replacement questions from Rob Gillium.
1) The driver replacement is fairly easy. Remove, solder , and secure. No sound calibration is necessary, but the drivers do require some playing time for break-in. The break-in time is usually around 200 hours, at a moderate volume level.
2) The CS2.7 and CS3.7 coaxes are $525 each, plus shipping. The woofers for the CS3.7 are $400 each, and the Passive Radiators are $200 each, plus shipping.
3) The newer crossover was added at serial number #882 (rev 2). I prefer the older style crossover which was done with point-to-point soldering on masonite. The newer style (revision 2) was done on a PC board.
4) The cap of the CS3.7 is power coated, however the original versions were an anodized aluminum (smooth). All versions can be touched up with a black semi-flat krypton paint #1613.
@scubabird, I too think the closest model to the legacy Thiel’s currently made at that price point is the Vandersteen 2’s. On the other hand, the attributes that you singled out; ...”exceptional detail and clarity...”...is where they separate the most. The Magnepans previously mentioned share most similarly in transient response and to some degree in coherence (compared to others), but are quite different in other ways. Based upon your previous post, I think you’d be happiest with genuine legacy Thiel’s.
I owned Thiel 7.2s many moons ago but mine had the mineral composite baffle. Don't know if it true or not but a couple of people told me there were a couple of reasons for the switch. One was about 15 pounds of weight difference per speaker and the other was problems when speakers were shipped overseas (e.g. Asia)
I just learned something from Rob Gillum regarding 3.7s.He told me that first generation 3.7s coax incorporated a silver bezel, latest generation have a black bezel instead of the silver one.
Hello I have been a long time reader and fan of this forum. I have Thiel cs7 that have been upgraded to the 7.2 to say that I cheated on the audiophile path would be an under statement. i bought my speakers from a fellow audiogoner appx. 5 years ago, at that time I thought my Krell ksa 100 amp would suffice, but everything I read said 7.2s NEED power and plenty of it. So I started researching and listening to bigger amps. i was just about to pull the trigger on some Mac 501s when I read about the Thiel liquidation auction in Tn. I now have the Krell fpb 600c that Jim used to power his/my speakers. When I bought the speakers the concrete baffles were cracked but everything sounded great. Now with the bigger krell on the speakers I am getting air through the cracks which causes distortion in the woofer of my left speaker. I talked to Rob a few years ago about the cracks and he said there was a small shop near Thiel in Ky. that use to do those repairs but they closed about the same time Thiel closed. My big question is "has anyone repaired a cracked concrete baffle or know someone that can repair a concrete baffle"?
I read things on zobel networks commonly being used with thiels speakers and amps used with them can anyone explain this? As well as the alpha goertz cables people talk about.
If I was looking for something that provided the essence of what I love about the Thiels, and was looking to get hold of something that was in current production, my starting point would be Maggies and Vandersteens. I had Magnepan speakers in my listening space from 1984 to 1996 and loved them. Moved onto Thiel when we needed something more practical to best co-exist with our then toddler. I started with the Thiel CS .5, and then in 2011 moved up to the 2.4. Much easier to work into my listening space than would be comparable Maggies. I have never owned Vandersteens, but in my space Vandersteens would be easier to work with. Also, Vandersteens would be easier to work with from an amp perspective relative to either Thiels or Maggies. Hope this helps.
Hope I’m not going to ruffle any feathers with this question, but would like to know any recommendations folks here might have for a currently manufactured speaker in the range of $2K-$3K per pair that delivers alot of what made the legacy Thiels sound so good. I assume any such product would implement the time coherent design principles and sturdy construction of classic Thiels. Might go somewhat higher on price range but not looking to spend twice that amount. Could look for older Thiels, but for now am wondering if anyone else is currently building new speakers much along those lines. My fond memories of my original 2’s was their exceptional detail and clarity compared with most anything else I shopped at the time. Thanks for any suggestions!
I just finally picked up my first set of Thiels, a minty pair of CS2's. Actually, it was a set of CS0.5's that were my first experience in this crazy hobby over 20 years ago and I never forgot it. I purchased these from the original owner and they're finished in black laminate, which I haven't seen very often. They sound heavenly and I'm having a blast with them, rediscovering music. I have them in my home office, sitting next to my VA Schonbergs that have been my favorite speaker in the house for the last year, or more.
My my wife said I have too many toys....says the lady with 15 purses. I might need to have her committed...
Some (not all) of the above mentioned amps that come at rather high prices (too rich for my blood) suggest low impedance capability but don't actually commit to it in their specs. Curious, no?
I want to ask folks here about replacement drivers for the CS3.7.
I am wondering if I should buy 2 tweeter/midrange drivers and keep in storage for potential future need. I plan to keep this speaker of years.
Does the replacement of the driver just require unscrewing, soldering, and screwing the driver back on? Does it require any audio calibration after replacement to get it to factory spec? I have asked this question to Coherent Source but have not heard back from them yet. I thought I would also ask here too.
Let me chime in on the amp for the CS3.7. I will be getting mine on Saturday and will hook up a single Benchmark AHB2 ($3K) which has 194 watt at 4 Ohms. My room is small. I think the slightly warm top end of the CS3.7 will work well with the very neutral AHB2. If it does I will get a second ABB2 to run in mono since this stereo amp was designed to run even better in mono (or bridged). A long thread on A'gon about this topic.
If the AHB2 is not a good match with the CS3.7. The Luxman m900u and the CODA #8 for $6K or the CODA #12 are what I would consider next. These 3 amps are much more warmer than the AHB2. I don't think I will need to go this route but the CODA's and Luxman amp should be rather good with the CS3.7.
You’re much more trusting, and willing risk taker than I am.
If you’re really looking for an amp to drive the 3.7’s for less than $10K, why not use the main one that Jim Thiel used when developing the 3.7’s: Krell FPB 600 ? You can find one used and have Krell rebuild it for about less than that. If you’ve got a smaller room or budget, you can go with a less powerful version.
A guy has these amps he used to drive apogee scintillas with for sale. custom made by Lazarus whatever company that was. Thinking I might hop on those. Two whopping transformers.
I remembered your previous comments on Morrow cables and was checking out their SP5 speaker cables a couple days ago. Most of the reviews focused on mid and high frequency performance, and there was little mention of bass performance. What's your view of how the Morrow speaker wire handles the low end? Is the SP5 high enough in the Morrow hierarchy to get really good performance or do you need to go to SP6 or higher to achieve sonic satisfaction?
I know that Morrow has frequent sales, but right now they have 50% off on the 5 series cables or higher, which sounds like an especially good deal.
@tomthiel Thanks for your response, a couple of thousand is not bad at all but it is no surprise for speakers that were in the top 20 best speakers of all time and very reasonably priced compared to the competition.Even by today's standard they can keep up with much more expensive speakers.
luxmancl38 Thank You for posting the CS 2.3 loudspeakers. You guys are lucky to have a great Audio shop in Audio Video Therapy Nashua NH. Happy Listening!
Thieliste - Rob Gillum at Coherent Source Service would know. The third New Thiel CEO told me "less than a couple thousand"; but then he was defending the decision to abandon Jim's designs. My impression is that marketing was in disarray after Jim's death in 2009. After taking on Crutchfield, the US dealer base evaporated and so forth. If anyone finds out, I'd like to know.
sdl4 Any brand that does not source to china is my focus. Swisscable, is my first audition sometime in December. I am open to other European or Japanese competitors.
@thoft A used Diablo 300 would be within your budget about $8K.The Diablo 300 has everything a 2.7 or 3.7 needs : high current, organic and full body sound.Otherwise Ayre is great but you won't have the bass of Gryphon amplification.
So my adcom left channel is feathering out. Staticky/hissy. I think I drove it too hard on 4 ohms too soon since the first owner never had it on anything less than 8ohms
sdl4 You own a great system. Good to read that newer Cardas cabling is a sonic match with PS Audio gear. Historically, Audience and Straight Wire are sonic matches with Thiel loudspeakers as well. I am unfamiliar with newer Audience Forte and Front Row cabling options. A few reviews on each line are slowly making a presense into the Audio press. I always advise to trust your own ears regarding cables/power cords.One does not need great spending to achieve great sound. A full loom as well as mixing can yield excellent aural results. Have fun! Happy Listening!
I'm sure your Ayre amp sounds great. It looks like cable choices are the next big item on your agenda. My experience with cables is fairly limited, but I do have a pretty good feeling for what works in my current system. When I first got the PS Audio Stellar M700 monoblock amps and the Gain Cell DAC/Preamp last year, I settled on using the Cardas Parsec balanced XLRs between the DAC/Pre and the amps after trying several other cables. The Parsec does not produce dramatically etched detail in the upper frequencies, but it does provide a good balance between detail and warmth, and the bass is solid with my 2.2 Thiels. I also picked up several Audience Forte F3 power cords and have been using them with all my PS Audio gear. These Audience cords are a bargain, and they help my system provide a smoother sound with a quieter background compared to the stock cords. Some online comments voice concerns that the Forte cords sound a little soft on the high end, but I don't have a lot to compare them with.
After getting the PS Audio BHK Preamp, I've been using it with the Stellar DAC/Pre in DAC-only mode. This meant that I needed another XLR interconnect between the BHK Pre and the Stellar DAC. If I were being more careful with my audio spending, I would have just picked up another pair of Parsec XLRs, but I've been lusting after the Cardas Clear Reflection XLRs so I decided to try a pair. First the good news: I really like the Clear Reflection cables. And the bad news: I really like the CR cables. This is bad news only because they cost a lot more than the Parsecs do. For now, I'm using the CR from DAC to Pre and the Parsec from Pre to M700s. If my self-control dissolves at some point, I may replace the Parsec with CR. But I still like the Parsec a lot, so there's no hurry to change them out. I'm still undecided about power cords, but I will soon be trying a pair of Shunyata Delta NR V2 power cords on either the BHK Pre and Stellar DAC or on the two M700 monoblocks to compare with the Audience cords. My speaker cables are long runs (24 ft.) of Straight Wire Encore. It's really hard to demo alternative cables that long, and super high-end cables are too expensive in those lengths, so I'll be sticking with the Straight Wire until a better high-performance bargain wire comes along.
A few more comments about the Cardas Clear Reflection interconnects may be helpful. This is not a cable for listeners seeking the nth degree of etched detail, although it does have an extended high end overall. Instead, it is a cable that gets the sound of voices, instruments, and music right. It images great, but not by exaggerating transients or shouting for attention. It simply makes recordings sound like music - at least in my system, which can sound a little too bright with the wrong cables. Because it sounds so natural, the CR is a favorite of many listeners, including several Thiel owners on this thread and Angela Cardas, who has many more expensive cables from Cardas Audio to choose from. If you're looking for some of the "midrange magic" from the earlier Cardas cables combined with the increased clarity from the technology used in Cardas' Clear series of cables, then Clear Reflection would be a great choice.
Thanks guys. I sold my SCS4 about 6 years ago and was not expecting to get a CS3.7. However, room treatments and DRC have made the CS3.7 placement seem possible in my office. I also have comfort with how to resolve problems with the CS3.7 from what I learned on this thread.
I do not think there will be a degradation of the sound via DRC, maybe an enhancement due to better room matching. That is getting the frequency curve to best match my room.
This is the guy who I will get to make the optimal frequency curve for my room. This will be implemented as Convolution File(s). The execution of these files are supported in software such as ROON and JRiver. Sort of 2020's equivalent of the old hardware equalizer.
I got a cherry veneer CS3.7 which matches all my furniture in the office. Was not trying to do that but it was a nice bonus.
The Gryphon Diablo should make a nice pairing with the CS3.7 or CS2.7. It will be interesting to see if my gear will work with the CS3.7. My gear is very neutral but the CS3.7 has a bit of warmth on top from what I remember so it should work. My current KEF LS50s sound great with the Benchmark gear. The aluminum coincident driver on the LS50s is similar in intent to the CS3.7.
sdl4 Glad I made you laugh. A tubed pre-amp is suggested in a separates set-up. On several auditions I heard that combination (tubed pre + ss power) and it does not disappoint. The BHK pre-amp is very fine. You will not become disappointed. What other gear including cabling rounds out your system?Regarding AYRE, I dare report that this may be the only brand who's power amp does not require a tubed preamp (Twenty Series). Unequivocally, this special series possess a tubed Soul.
@yyzsantabarbara Congrats on your 3.7s purchase let's see how you like them.I might follow you soon as i'm contemplating a pair of 2.7s and a Gryphon Diablo 300 to drive them.I have to postpone my big reference rig project for the next few years but don't want to stay without a system therefore a pair of 2.7s or 3.7s paired with a Diablo 300 would do just fine.I'll keep you guys posted.
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