I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Hi Tom - I own Thiel 3.6 and have for around 17 years and CS 6 for about 4 years. I switch them in and out every few months or so, right now using the CS 6.
The only amplification I have used are Mcintosh 501 mono’s and Classe CA200, both of which I am intimately familiar with since I have owned both for several years.
Both are interesting, the 501’s have an obvious control over both speakers. The Classe’s also have plenty of control, great midrange textures and are more open than the darker sounding Mac’s. The Mac's might have a small degree of refinement compared to the Classe, perhaps the addition current. Neither amp ever gives the impression of being “taxed” no matter how hard they are driven. And I have been know to drive them with some good classic rock, blues, and jazz.
My room is large, 18 X 40 and I get plenty of Satisfying SPL with both amps. I also switch them in and out every so often.
Pops - What is the power rating of the Macs? Do you use the 4 ohm tap?
The CA200 is rated at 200 into 8 ohms and 500 into 2 ohms, so it is current limited, which interests me. Have you used it in both stereo and bridged mono?
Tom - the Macs are rated at 500 watts from each tap, I have tried all 3 and prefer the 4 ohm tap, interestingly, the 8 ohm tap sounds good too. Bass is a little smoother. The 2 ohm tap does have a little more texture in the midrange - I need to try it again.
I have not bridged the Classe as I only have one. Have always been interested to try it however and flirted many times with buying another one.
The ceiling is the most interesting part of my room. I used Rives Audio to build out my basement, hence the 18 X 42 foot size. We used the floor joists to build a giant diffuser by using blocking between joist bays, blocked at 15 to 40 degree angles in each bay. Over 380 blocks - I think my contractor wanted to hang it up when he read those plans! Then we treated and covered with cloth so the ceiling actually plays higher than 8 ft. There are 3 soffit areas, the first 2 are a combination of diffuser/absorption where the music takes place. The last soffit is geared more for absorption to deaden that end of the room.
I have a pool table back there. Great to lay stuff on and collect dust rather than actually play pool! LOL. The room really does sound great and was the best investment I have made in my system.
Room sounds really nice. That smallest floor to ceiling dimension is a significant limiting factor to normal playback rooms. Good work with your ceiling treatment.
I'll post when I have some feedback regarding bridged mono vs vertical bi-amping performance.
popsYour room does sounds nice indeed. For most basement designs this is not an easy task to conquer. Agreed, good work with your ceiling reinforcement, treatment. Happy Listening!
Pardon my French - I am a long time owner of O3A's; probably the lower end of the Thiel family. I did have woofer cones replaced several years ago by the then Thiel company. Any thoughts on these? I know that CS3's were rated better; how I do not know.
Barry - Your speakers can probably be serviced by long-time Thiel service manager Rob Gillum now of Coherent Source Service in Lexington.
The O3a is second generation O3 which put Thiel on the map. The A generation dealt with baffle edge diffraction via wool felt absorption - very effective but somewhat homely-looking. Your cabinets are made of Finland-Ply (high-end Baltic Birch), similar to the latest CS3.7 and 2.7s curved ply panels. You also got the first dose of styrene ultra-bypass caps. With the equalizer, you can get sub 30Hz sealed box bass from that heavy-duty custom Eminance woofer. The O3b added some driver refinements and more precise time alignment. The CS3 incorporated a curved-edge baffle for geometric rather than absorptive diffraction control and an all new driver complement. The CS3.5 (5th generation Model 3) still stands an an epitome the design family. If parts were readily available, which they are not, I would like to hot-rod the CS3.5 as a tribute to its place in the development of high-end audio.
The point is that each successive model generation applied new ideas, techniques and technologies to stand on the shoulders of its predecessors. The O3a is a true minimum phase, minimum diffraction, extended range Thiel speaker. It is probable Rob can keep them on the road and their performance will embarrass many contemporary speakers.
Welcome! Good to have another vintage Thiel Audio 03A speaker owner here. Per Tom's suggestion reach out and touch Mr. Rob Gillum at Coherent Source Service (CSS) in Lexington KY. Please keep us posted after your consultation. Happy Listening!
I just wanted to circle back and add this, as I noticed a few folks are connecting their Classe amps to switched power conditioners, either for convenience, or because it may sound better to do so.
In my opinion (so keep it in context), putting any legacy Classe, or any high current SS amp for that matter, through a conditioner, power regenerator, or isolation transformer almost always shaves a little off the dynamics. IMO, it is a huge mistake to do so. And it is also possibly accelerating the demise of some filtering elements.
When the transformer primary demands more current in these, they want it right NOW. Otherwise, you are counting more and more on the filter banks to carry the draw until the tranny can catch up. And you are only working those filters harder. And now they are already over 20 years old in some cases.
Many power conditioners incorporate devices in series, and the current has to fight its way through those elements before reaching your amp. What you gain in perceived quiet (and most passive conditioner schemes do not filter much below 10 mhz anyway), you give up in reduced dynamics. While they may work to isolate digital and switching supply noise from surrounding components, they are ultimately no friend to higher current amplifiers.
Unless you are prepared to spend enormous sums on full wave regeneration, and put up with the resulting conversion heat loads, no conditioner can provide current as quickly -- or in the quantity -- that a direct-to-mains connection can.
But these instruments do need some transient protection, for reasons I will point out. So you have to balance those two considerations: mains current delivery and protection.
When I set up mine, I made it a point to go straight to the mains, with only some local transient protection (I also have cascading protection through to the meter, all of it in parallel). The biggest reason these should have at least some local protection is . . . surprise, surprise . . . that all the CA series use op amps in their front ends. In the case of the x01 Series, the BB OPA2134. It is a very nice, warm sounding op amp, with its own separate, independent, supply. I can't speak to the original CA series or earilier DR series, as I have yet to break one down. But I am told that the original and x01 CAs share nearly identical topology. And there are numerous other IC chips across the lower control board on these for circuit monitoring, fault protection and power up sequencing. While the big Motorola outputs are pretty hardy, none of these IC components should be forced to suffer heavy, or too many, transients.
Way back when, when I was first setting this one up, there was one high current cord option that satisfied both concerns, and that was the Tice Infinite Speed. I opted for the Tice cord because at that time, it was the only cord rated for up to 20 amps continuous delivery (not including the connectors which are UL-limited) including protection, and because George Tice was including parallel transient protection in the cord, so it was still a straight wire direct-to-mains implementation. And parallel protection is the key here. And it was after the clock debacle, so I was able to grab one for peanuts.
I'm not a disciple of exotic power cord geometry, other than that it needs to provide a high maximum sustained current. If you feel differently, no problem. But every Classe legacy amp advertised at 100 watts nominal or greater should have at least a 12 awg power cord connection direct-to-mains, with nothing imposed in series. Whether that is a $20 home brew romex cord, or a $5,000 high end exoticord, is up to you.
But besides that direct to mains power connection, paralleled transient protection and noise conditioning is all you need. Because there were no other serious parallel conditioning products available when the CA series was around, I ran with just the Tice cord. And it sounded great, with unrestrained dynamics. That was a long time ago, so the entire issue of general mains noise existed, but was much less profound than it is today.
Fast forward to today, and there is far more noise and interference on the mains. High amplitude wideband noise from a sea of digital devices and supplies everywhere that never existed in the 1980s or 90s. And general mains quality outside at the grid has declined as well. But now there are new products that we only dreamed about that can deal with it.
Using today's line conditioning technology, I recently added the iFi AC Purifier. It delivered an instant and shockingly good sound improvement that everyone noticed, and added some additional transient protection, all parallel to the Classe mains supply. There are higher grade competitors, but the iFi product uses proven wideband out-of-phase active noise reduction (like noise cancelling headphones for your mains), for only $99. I have found this little plastic can to be better than any passive conditioner box I've used in a very long time (some of which cost four figures). And most importantly, all of its activity takes place IN PARALLEL, which does not restrict mains current delivery by one electron. I cannot recommend this new product technology, and its competitors, enough. Again, the key with any of them is IN PARALLEL. With one, there is no need for any further conditioning of the amp's mains supply.
As I mentioned above, I use a dedicated circuit 20A hospital duplex outlet for my legacy Classe. The AC purifier sits in the top outlet, the Tice cord in the bottom one. And that is all you really need to get the very best out of a legacy Classe amp. Full dynamics, ample protection, and very quiet. No conditioners in series around here, ever.
sgmlaw Thank You for posting such a concise and well-written follow up on the advantages of a dedicated line , AC purifier and their advantages with Classe' amplifiers. I concur with your assessment on newer technologies and the devices that utilize an incredible amount of high amplitude bandwidth/wideband noise that did not exist in a pre-internet age. It would be interesting to learn more on the next generation of digital pioneers that will address and tackle this issue head-on. Equally important, will said pioneers build and implement the next great grid? What can the general public expect from such a development? What will it look like in presentation? Interaction? Stability?
^^"...I concur with your assessment on newer technologies and devices that utilize an incredible amount of high bandwidth/wideband noise that did not exist in a pre internet age...."
The final components choice for the CS-2.4 crossover upgrade, it will be made on new larger Jantzen Universal PCB's and soldered with Jantzen Solder, 4% silver
Been contemplating about the degree that various aspects contribute to my listening experience. Although this is rather artificial, I would say say that the recording/performance accounts for 35 %, my speakers for 35%, my room acoustics another 20 % and the electronics perhaps 10% of the listening experience. All of this is contingent on being in the right frame of mind. Music certainly enhances my state of mind but my mind can also be the greatest obstacle to the listening experience. So ultimately, my state of mind is the most important aspect of the listening experience. Your thought on this parceling out of the contributions to your listening experience.
Listening to some speakers at a dealer (a former Thiel dealer) recently, I mentioned that I've owned Thiel 3.6s for 21 years and recently had my amps updated, upon which he replied that Thiels are real "amp killers." The dealer stated that since Thiel speakers are so difficult to drive, they "eat-up amps." I've never heard that comment previously, so am wondering if there's any way a demanding speaker can have a negative affect on an amp's life. Facts (rather than opinions) would be appreciated. Thanks.
holco My pleasure. Thank You for seeing a way to make an excellent loudspeaker- Outstanding! You guys here that are on the D.I.Y side are performing an incredible service for many owners. Very cool and sharp minds. I believe in modifications and the modders that make it happen.
thielrules interesting query and percentage factors for the Panel to ponder. Room acoustics may be the most adjustable factor as some of you guys have a naturally great -sounding space (low percentage). While others, have an inherently unforgiving acoustical space (higher percentage). The same train of thought can be applied to dealers/retailers. IME, I must give props to The Listening Room in Baltimore MD. The retail space had excellent sounding rooms without any additional acoustical treatments (all rooms were contractor carpeted).
Certainly running demanding speakers can cause amps to run hotter and that may shorten the life of the amp. Just another reason to run two amps bridged mono or vertical biamp. You double the available power and you also double the heat sinking. If you play at the same volume you would with a single amp you should ameliorate the heat problem significantly. My moderate current, fairly inexpensive amps will put out 200/400/800 into 8/4/2 ohms when run bridged mono. They’ll put a whole lot more than 200 into 8 ohms but I’m not looking to play loudly enough for the inability to double from 500 to 1000 watts to become a problem. They’ve been operating flawlessly for around 7 years now.
brayeagle I had no idea that Don was a Thiel dealer/retailer at one time. Can you recall his electronics that drove those 3.5 loudspeakers? Very cool story and small world indeed. I was there around 5 years ago and at that time he had Maggies and Sonus Faber.
I have some thoughts on The Listening Room. Don Hoatson was an early Thiel adopter, a pioneer from his opening in 1978. He was going strong with Thiel when I left in 1995 when I lost touch. His rooms were indeed great sounding due to their dimensions, construction, and that he used commercial horse-hair pad under the wool carpets to take the bottom octave absorption about an octave below any of the foam underpadding products. Don died in 2016.
This morning I spoke with his grandson, Michael, who grew up in Don's business and listening rooms. Mike has taken over and moved the business to Chestertown on Maryland's Eastern Shore where he has been open one year, is growing and expects to honor everything his grandfather taught him. He is staking his future on customers like you guys.
tomthiel Good to see you today. I am sad that Mr. Hoatson passed. He was a unique character that believed in entry level cables/power cords only. During my visits we discussed this matter at length. Still, his rooms did sound great- no question about it. Equally important, he has a family member to carry his Audio business forward. Here is to Michael becoming successful on the Eastern Shore. Thank You for the update.
When I ought my 3.5s from Don, I was using a HH Scott preamp and a Scott power amplifier I had built from kits in 1961. I’d been using a series of bookshelf speakers - - ending up with my wife’s pair of AR3a speakers. We had recently moved into our new home with large living and family rooms, and now we could enjoy some floor-standing speakers.
Someone suggested the Listening Room., so my wife and I went there on a Saturday. We both fell in love with the Thiel 3.5s. She said: "Get Them," to which I responded "Yes, Dear!"
Don strongly suggested I acquire a better amplifier; however, finances were strained at that time. I finally had to admit the Scott wasn’t up to the job of filling the living room in our new home. I contacted Thiel, and Jim Thiel recommended Bryston amplifiers.
BTW: Tom’s description of Don’s aversion to esoteric cables is apt. Don ended up steering me to The Audio Critic, and I’ve been a Belden guy since.
Much Thanks for sharing your 3.5 purchasing experiencing. During my auditions Don represented Audio Research, Cambridge Audio, Rega and Rogue Audio. Maggies and Sonus Faber were the loudspeaker lines. Straight Wire cables/power cords entry level, low-tier only. I recall that we talked about his Engineering Degree. I do not believe that he divulged his discipline? I enjoyed his passion for electronics and musical selections.
Guys, can any of you help me with some basic information re the CS1.6? I just bought a pair for the hot rod garage, but won't see them for a couple of weeks - I've never seen a pair. I need to know the dimensions of the slot / port. How wide is the slot and how deep from the inside / back to the start of the flare? Is the inside edge eased / rounded in any way?
Any information would be helpful in developing some ideas around upgrading port performance. Thank you in advance.
From memory, the 1.6 front facing port is about 1.5” wide and maybe a foot tall. Probably about 2” thick and I’m going to guess the inside edge is square. Doesn’t seem like many 1.6 owners post here.
How wide is the slot and how deep from the inside / back to the start of the flare? Is the inside edge eased / rounded in any way?
The slot is about 1/2" wide x 12" long, inside the speaker there’s a about 1" thick x 2.5" height wooden wall around the slot (as port tube?), and yes it is rounded on the slot side. Hope it help.
jab Thanks for the offer ;) but I'll stick with my Thiels - unless I decide to look for a pair of 2.4s/2.7s/3.7s. I still haven't made a decision because I haven't been able to get past the uncertainty of knowing how the newer models will sound with my current setup - which I see no reason for changing. I hadn't listened to speakers for many years but have recently been visiting some dealers to listen to newer models and hear for myself how speakers have changed in 21 years. Turns out I think my 3.6s are better (in what I look for in a speaker anyway) than just about all of the new speakers I've listened to -- and that's in spite of all the sales gimmicks and "creative marketing" which unfortunately is still very much alive and well among too many high-end dealers. What I've learned in my travels: there are tons of speakers out there, but very few that are really worthy of serious consideration, and-after price is factored in-Thiels were and still are unique in combining value and excellent performance. Other speakers just "don't sound right." Who would've known that I'd have made such a good purchase decision over 30 years ago when I bought my first pair of 03a's.
tomthiel Thank You for the follow up and clarification on Don's engineering discipline. Nice score! on those CS 1.6 loudspeakers. You do indeed have a Hot Rod garage. Have fun!
imhififan Good to see you again. Thank You for citing those slot dimensions and measurements. I do not believe that we have many CS 1.6 nor CS 1.7 owners on the Panel.
Fan - Very helpful in deconstructing some performance differences between the round and slot reflex system. When we're finished with the 1.6, I believe we'll have something quite worth auditioning.
It's anecdotal but FWIW: I've run the Thiel CS6, 2.7 and 3.7 on my CJ 140W tube amps, playing soft and loud (I crank them especially when I'm listening from another room in the house, make it sound like a live band).My amps have yet to be eaten by a Thiel speaker :-)
rosami, I feel the exact same about my 3.6s. I have visited numerous dealers when I travel, and I have not heard a newer model that I had rather have in my home.
Yes - it’s kind of amazing given the age of these speakers. My only “want” with the 3.6s would be a tighter bottom end. I’ve had the 3.7s in my room and they had way better base-to-mid-base definition and control, however the vocal range sounded somewhat thin and lacked body. I’d guess the electronics/speaker combination was a big reason for what I heard with the 3.7s but I’m not willing to start changing my electronics. That was the main reason I stuck with my 3.6s rather than getting the 3.7s. I still think the 3.6s are terrific speakers and may do a little experimenting with speaker cables going forward.
rosami they are great speakers indeed, my favorite all-time. My pair are in backup mode right now, I am using my CS6's which do deliver a little more bass and dynamics. I have a rather large room. However, the CS6 is not quite as transparent throughout the frequency range, but just by a smidgen.
I have been through tons of speaker cables and I can tell you that you do not need expensive cables to enhance characteristics of the 3.6. There are several sub 1K cables that have worked better for me than many low to mid 5 figure cables. All depends on your tastes and your amp. Enjoy those great speakers!
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
