There's a lot more bass in a 6.5" driver than most of you think
One topic of discussion I often see new audiophiles touch on is whether to get larger speakers for more bass.
I usually suggest they tune the room first, then re-evaluate. This is based on listening and measurement in several apartments I’ve lived in. Bigger speakers can be nothing but trouble if the room is not ready.
In particular, I often claim that the right room treatment can make smaller speakers behave much larger. So, to back up my claims I’d like to submit to you my recent blog post here:
Look at the bass response from those little drivers! :)
I admit for a lot of listeners these speakers won’t seem as punchy as you might like, but for an apartment dweller who does 50/50 music and theater they are ideal for me. If you’d like punchy, talk to Fritz who aligns his drivers with more oomf in the bass.
First, I used to work in cinema sound, so thanks for sending me something so interesting, but the paper does nothing to contradict the earlier posts I made.
Toole is questioning and providing data for measuring and calibrating theaters, while comparing home and cinema speakers.
The issue of taming bass modes via bass traps and EQ is not exactly what he’s pointing at here, so much as the trouble with using steady state measurements which had dominated cinema measurements, which I’m very much surprised is still being done.
Let me jump into a section you quoted here:
It is a bold assertion that a single steady-state measure-ment in a room—a room curve—can reliably anticipatehuman response to a complex sound field. Such measure-ments take no account of the direction or timing of reflec-tions within the sound field. Time-windowing the measure-ment is useful to separate events in the time domain, butthese too ignore the directions from which sounds arrive
100% True!! But again, he’s addressing the overall timbre balance, not the taming or elimination of room modes which others have written of, which is very cost effectively handled by bass traps and EQ. However, making that sound good is my hobby and pleasure. :) Do so with two dozen woofers if you’d like to do it that way for yourself.
So what are we left with? Personal taste to attempt to assess how to set things, and that IMHO is really what makes a great room correction system vs. not. The two companies I know do a great job at this, fire and forget, are JL Audio and Dirac. I haven’t heard Anthem’s, but given they and Dirac allow for hands on customization I’m sure they’ll do.
And while this is all rather technical, and therefore fun, for me, I also want to follow Toole’s lead and jump out of the techncial to the subjective. Properly set up, a single sub with EQ and bass traps is nothing short of glorious. So not only have I read up on this, experimented and measured, but I experience stunning life altering bass without more than 1 subwoofer. This is why I’m so confident that the science and practice works.
What does suck is I’m not really sure how many other audiophiles can take this approach without an automated system. In that sense, the simple formulas for using 4 subs seems a lot easier for most.
>>When you EQ one sub, what you effectively do is ameliorate the modes situation at one spot (eg. your listening position) and make it worse elsewhere. It is easier to place the sub next to your armchair and delay it.<<
This is only partially true. With room tuning, you can take care of it all at once. Please read up on the proper use of EQ in partnership with bass traps.
And adding 3 more subwoofers to me is complexity. Three more subs than you would need otherwise, in addition to the signal cables. That’s definitely not for me and my home.
To be clear, I’m not advocating that there is only one possible truth to good bass. I am saying, religious fanaticism about swarms prevents us from looking at other very good alternatives. I worry that the fans of Swarms have gone from 1 bad subwoofer, to 4, and jumped all possible steps in the middle, so they discount them as inadequate, which is a shame in my view. "
Never said that distributed bass is the one possible truth. I use it in home theater applications. I listen to music on dipole speakers with dipole bass. The whole issue of "room EQ" is for a longer discussion. One thing is to EQ the shortcomings of a speaker ("flattening the anechoic response"). Totally another is trying to EQ the room reponse. Let me quote Floyd Toole, in this AES paper:
"For decades it has been widely accepted that a steady- state amplitude response measured with an omnidirectional microphone at the listening location in a room is an important indicator of how an audio system will sound. Such measurements have come to be known as generic “room curves,” or more specific “house curves.” That belief has a long history in professional audio, and now it has penetrated consumer audio with stand-alone products and receivers in- corporating automated measurement and equalization capabilities. The implication is that by making in-situ measurements and manipulating the input signal so that the room curve matches a predetermined target shape, imperfections in (unspecified) loudspeakers and (unspecified) rooms are measured and repaired. It is an enticing marketing story. "
"2.4 “Room Equalization” Is a Misnomer
It is a bold assertion that a single steady-state measurement in a room—a room curve—can reliably anticipate human response to a complex sound field. Time-windowing the measurement is useful to separate events in the time domain, but these too ignore the directions from which sounds arrive. Human listeners respond to these cues, in some detail, and they exhibit skills in separating room sound from the timbral identity of loudspeakers, and in adapting to different circumstances. This is, after all, what happens at live, un- amplified, musical events. This means that not everything measured is perceptually important, nor can our reaction to such sound fields be constant, we adapt . The simple measurements therefore cannot be definitive. "
"Description of the Magnepan subwoofer accompanying the "condo" 30.7.
"The bass unit was about 3 feet tall and about 1 foot wide. The cabinet or structure consisted of a V shaped open baffle with 8 total drivers—4 vertically mounted dynamic cone woofers on each side of the V. These woofers were approximately 6.5 inches in diameter. Though there has been several dynamic cone dipolar designs attempted before, Wendell commented that this was a unique design that utilizes DSP and would eventually be patented. Yes, I said DSP!
Though Wendell used the term "dipolar" for the bass units, I was told that the key design elements were the dual array and open baffle mounting along with the use of DSP. With this in mind, he also used the term "dual-dipolar" for the entire system to reinforce that this is a unique overall configuration and yet it still has the ability to be competitive with an all magnetic dipolar design."
The bass solution decribed by Magnepan's top salesman as "unique" is not really so. All dipole speakers need EQ and since the cost of DSP fell down, it replaced discrete electronics. Siegfried Linkwitz (RIP) was a great proponent of dipoles, both in his corporate audiotech guru capacity and later as the "people's constructor". Go to linkwitzlabs.com His last design LX521 is a four-way and DSP controlled dipole. You can still buy the license and plans for $150. Total materials cost, if I remember correctly, ca 2k. His bass is a two-way V-frame, with two 10 inch dynamic cone drivers working in opposition. The phase is inverted on the back one, so the drivers work in push-pull configuration. That's what Wendell probably describes as "dual-dipolar". The LX521 is 10x cheaper and likely also 10x smaller than the 30.7 Magnepans. I would love to hear them in direct comparison.
When you EQ one sub, what you effectively do is ameliorate the modes situation at one spot (eg. your listening position) and make it worse elsewhere. It is easier to place the sub next to your armchair and delay it.
This is only partially true. With room tuning, you can take care of it all at once. Please read up on the proper use of EQ in partnership with bass traps.
And adding 3 more subwoofers to me is complexity. Three more subs than you would need otherwise, in addition to the signal cables. That’s definitely not for me and my home.
To be clear, I’m not advocating that there is only one possible truth to good bass. I am saying, religious fanaticism about swarms prevents us from looking at other very good alternatives. I worry that the fans of Swarms have gone from 1 bad subwoofer, to 4, and jumped all possible steps in the middle, so they discount them as inadequate, which is a shame in my view.
There is no complexity to distributed bass. Place three similar subs randomly along the walls. The flatness of frequency response is irrelevant under 20Hz. Actually 18Hz is often a safety cutoff point for infrasounds, especially if you use vinyl. Good sub amps (like Dayton SA1000) have this feature. Sound traps need to be very very big to be effective at low frequencies. Anechoic chambers measure them in half wavelengths, and 20Hz wave is 55' or 17 meters. When you EQ one sub, what you effectively do is ameliorate the modes situation at one spot (eg. your listening position) and make it worse elsewhere. It is easier to place the sub next to your armchair and delay it. But of course everybody is free to choose his bass ways. In the end it is in the ear/brain of the listener.
@pirad Description of the Magnepan subwoofer accompanying the "condo" 30.7.
"The bass unit was about 3 feet tall and about 1 foot wide. The cabinet or structure consisted of a V shaped open baffle with 8 total drivers—4 vertically mounted dynamic cone woofers on each side of the V. These woofers were approximately 6.5 inches in diameter. Though there has been several dynamic cone dipolar designs attempted before, Wendell commented that this was a unique design that utilizes DSP and would eventually be patented. Yes, I said DSP!
Though Wendell used the term "dipolar" for the bass units, I was told that the key design elements were the dual array and open baffle mounting along with the use of DSP. With this in mind, he also used the term "dual-dipolar" for the entire system to reinforce that this is a unique overall configuration and yet it still has the ability to be competitive with an all magnetic dipolar design."
Distrubuted bass addresses room modes, probably with more success than other solutions.
Well, definitely not without it's own share of complexity and cost.
Not sure what we are discussing here with respect to infrasounds (<20Hz).
My statements about being able to get a sub flat to 16 Hz go back to something you said earlier:
The Swarm, when sealed, goes down to 18Hz
Meaning, again, a swarm is not the only solution to great bass in a room. I can solve the room mode problem, and get wonderful bass in the same scale as you claim for the Swarm with a single sub, bass traps and EQ.
Distrubuted bass addresses room modes, probably with more success than other solutions. Not sure what we are discussing here with respect to infrasounds (<20Hz). People can’t hear them, unless they are pure sine waves at big volumes. No concern for music, really. The movie theater experience of simulated earthquakes, explosions or thunderstorms is best served with bass shakers, like Clark Synthesis. There is also a niche in crowd control, where infasounds can be used to incapacitate people. A controversial and dangerous method, never really used in democracies (resonances in the respiratory tract that make breathing difficult).
Please answer technically. Anybody can make any statements on facts. I am not trying to be omniscient here, but prefer to separate facts from opinions.
Yes, mics can "hear" under 20Hz and visualize the measurements. How does a "boomy" or "not boomy" infrasounds are visualized in magnitude curves?
I can answer this question technically, but before I do, it seems to me that you feel like you are qualified make statements about the quality of bass, and the depth of the bass but I can't??
Yes, mics can "hear" under 20Hz and software can visualize the measurements. How are "boomy" or "not boomy" infrasounds differently visualized in magnitude curves?
agreed, smaller drivers can output impressive bass especially with the right amplifier and enclosure design. the spendor D7 has a transmission line enclosure and that single 6-3/4" woofer sounds amazing. most ported speakers do well but often it's quality that matters- not extension or quantity. a bigger woofer can produce better quality bass more effortlessly.
Impressive! I’ve gotten flat response to ~ 16 Hz with a single sub. Repeatedly. Not boomy. "
I wrote before, that I stood once next to the 16Hz organ pipe and all I could feel was wind. I added a PS to my previous post above, repeat here:
"PS. I should add that if you can hear sounds under 20Hz, you are likely to be an elephant. The human experience under 20Hz is rather vibration permeating various body parts. If you play test sounds under 20Hz and insist you hear them, then something is wrong with your subs. They play harmonics where they shouldn’t be. This test actually shows faults in the construction. Try these tests: The Ultimate Bass Test | Ultra Low Frequency Range Test "
@noble100 Thank you. I started the audio journey as a hobby several years ago. I bought licenses from Linkwitz to build his LX521 and from another source to build the distributed bass. Then I moved to my own designs. It is still a hobby, but my systems play at some interesting places. I don't think I'll be quitting my daytime job yet ;)
I have built both dipole and distributed bass systems. Dipoles are great for any kind of music down to the bass guitar low E (40Hz). Under 30Hz the experience is not impressive. The Swarm, when sealed, goes down to 18Hz. With the ports open even lower, but it gets kind of boomy. The sound is powerful but not so clear and natural as from dipole bass. I would say if classics, pop and jazz are your thing, go for dipoles. If you are a basshead or need to shake your home theater, distrubuted sealed boxes will deliver. PS. I should add that if you can hear sounds under 20Hz, you are likely to be an elephant. The human experience under 20Hz is rather vibration permeating various body parts. If you play test sounds under 20Hz and insist you hear them, then something is wrong with your subs. They play harmonics where they shouldn’t be. This test actually shows faults in the construction. Try these tests: The Ultimate Bass Test | Ultra Low Frequency Range Test
I was so impressed with your knowledge and posts on this thread, that I looked at your profile and read many of your previous posts on a wide variety of other threads and subjects. They were equally impressive, demonstrating an equally substantial knowledge of the science of the subjects combined with an obvious good measure of practical experience on the wide variety of subjects. I'm fairly certain my very high opinion of your posts as very high quality are influenced by the fact that I agree with the vast majority of your well worded opinions. I was just curious whether you're associated with an audio industry company or just an interested consumer hobbyist?
One more interesting concept is dipole bass, proposed by Siegfried Linkwitz in his LX521. The subs are v-frame dipoles and the side wall modes are minimized by cancellations. The bass is incredibly clear and tight. Finally, one can put the single sub next to his listening position to get at least one good spot with it.
The author has no idea how distributed bass works. Both Geddes (PhD thesis on bass) and Welti (Floyd Toole’s Harman lab) found in their research that key to distributed bass is asymmetric placement. Geddes believes three sources is enough: one in the corner, two others haphazardly against other walls. Duke LeJeune, Geddes’s coworker and constructor of the Swarm, adds the fourth source. There is no point adding more sources. Phase switching is not really part of the concept. Digital corrections of the whole system can be applied, but already the haphazard placement does most of the job. Digital corrections using counterwaves, such as those used in Kii3 or D&D, don’t really work below 50-60 Hertz. To battle complex phenomena like room modes, randomness is the most optimal way. Here, one can see easily, what problem room modes can be computationally: hunecke.de | Room Eigenmodes Calculator
apologies if you have mentioned it. back to your original post. I wonder how big is your room?
The total acoustic space is about 12.5’ x 30’, divided lengthwise into a living room and a second kitchen/dining area.
6.5" may be good enough for a medium room, but might be a bit lacking if there isn’t enough travel to move enough air to energize a large room.
So, again, the point of the post is not that everyone will be satisfied with a small woofer, but to help buyers understand that even relatively small speakers can put out quite a bit, and that room acoustics matter a great deal. For my modest apartment, with the couch 9’ or so from the speakers this is plenty of high quality bass. Which brings me to another point:
Good room treatment can make speakers sound BIGGER. Going with larger speakers in a bad room may in fact be a bad idiea.
The standard procedure for installing a 4-sub DBA system such as the AK Swarm, includes the final step of inverting the phase (simply by reversing the pos. and neg. connections on the sub) on each of the 4 subs sequentially to determine if any individual sub's phase inversion positively effects the overall bass performance in the room of the 4-sub DBA system as a whole. In my 23'x16'x8' room, currently without any bass room treatments and without the use of any DSP or electronic room control/equalization of any type, I noticed no improvements in the overall bass performance in my room of inverting the phase on any of the 4 individual subs comprising my 4-sub AK Debra DBA system. However, this does not mean that phase inversion on a particular individual sub in other 4-sub DBA systems would not be significantly improved in overall bass performance. I believe only a brief audition of a good quality 4-sub DBA system would be sufficient to convince the most ardent skeptic of this concept's near state of the art effectiveness. I have no stake in this concept except the $3K I spent to adopt it, my intention is solely to spread the word of how amazingly well it worked for me and will work for anyone else guaranteed, regardless of room or main speakers utilized.
@erik_squires apologies if you have mentioned it. back to your original post. I wonder how big is your room? 6.5" may be good enough for a medium room, but might be a bit lacking if there isn't enough travel to move enough air to energize a large room.
Schroeder’s frequency does vary from room to room. In general, the larger the room, the lower the Schroeder’s frequency and more directional bass is.
for a typical concert hall, it can be as low into the teens if not lower. So everything is directional, even double bass and the lower/lowest registers in the organ.
And I wonder if that’s why we are never able to reproduce concert hall acoustics in our relatively tiny rooms
To appreciate what constitutes a good bass, one needs to experience a distributed subs system like the Swarm. Four relatively small boxes with 10 inch drivers placed against the four walls.
Good post with very accurate and useful information about how we perceive sound at various frequencies in our domestic sized rooms. The Schroeder frequency of a room typically being about 200 Hz , the fact that we can't localize bass frequencies below about 80 Hz, the knowledge that humans can’t even perceive the exitance of sound tones in their rooms until the complete full cycle (fully formed) soundwaves exist in the room to be detected by our ears and processed as a perception of sound at a certain pitch/frequency, volume and duration and it takes several full cycle soundwaves to be presented into a room for changes in pitch and volume to be perceived; these are all very useful concepts and facts to be familiar with for all of us home audio enthusiasts. Okay ladies, now we're having a meaningful discussion about attaining good bass response in our uniquely sized and shaped rooms. Science and facts are our friends, boys and girls.
Here's a quote from The Absolute Sound reviewer, Robert E. Greene, that I find very relevant to this discussion:
"Audiophiles tend to be very concerned about the upper half of the musical spectrum. “Female vocals” are the standard test material for many. Perhaps this arises precisely because it is the upper-frequency material that does not change so much from one room to another. So, if one thinks of audio as mainly about a system of equipment rather than about the combination of that system and a room (as is really the case), then it becomes natural to concentrate on the part that is affected least by the room.
Unfortunately for this view, the lower frequencies are a truly vital part of music. They are harder to deal with in a domestic environment than are the upper reaches, but deal with them one must."
Dealing with the lower frequencies via the utilization of 2-4 optimally positioned, good quality and optimally configured subs are the best solutions I've ever used to date and that I'm currently aware of. The more subs deployed in a room, the better the lower frequencies are dealt with.
As you mentioned, there is a phase change, but as with most things, it is not sudden and the lower it goes, the less directional. Try this exercise, have a tone generator to put out 40Hz, and then try locate the speakers, I bet you cannot. at 150Hz (lower than most Schroeder Frequency), you probably can. Also different room size has different Schroeder frequency so everyone's observation / experience might be different.
I had some computer hardware issues that are now rectified but I was unable to continue following this thread as closely as I was over the past 3 days. Catching up today, I was disappointed to discover that a few posters have been attempting to debate some facets of how deep bass soundwaves behave in smaller domestic rooms and how our human ears and brains detect and perceive these deep bass soundwaves as deep bass. I just want to restate and remind thread readers and posters of a few things that have been scientifically proven by acoustic experts and are generally considered to be true by the vast majority of them. In other words, facts that we should not be wasting our time and effort by debating or misleading others about:
1. The vast majority of humans are unable to localize bass sounds/tones below about 80 Hz. This means an inability to determine where these omnidirectional deep bass soundwaves/sound tones are originating from and, therefore, means there’s no need or sense to operating deep bass drivers (including subwoofers) in any other mode than mono since there is no such thing as stereo deep bass. This is why virtually all commercial music recording engineers sum the bass at about 80Hz or below to mono on their recording mixes. Even if a system were configured for stereo bass below 80 Hz, it would be useless since there’s virtually zero music source content material to play on it. If you doubt this, try to name even a single exception to this statement. It’s very important to note, however, that most individuals will still be able to perceive the deep bass sounds/notes as directional and properly localized within their system’s soundstage illusion. That is, deep bass sounds/tones will be perceived as coming from the proper instrument position within the stereo soundstage. This is due to the fundamental deep bass tones, being below 80 Hz and coming from the bass drivers, not being directional but the overtones/harmonics of the fundamental bass tones, being above 80 Hz and coming from the main speakers, being directional and our brains being able to associate the directional overtones/harmonics with the omnidirectional fundamental deep bass tones and thereby perceive specifically where in the soundstage the deep bass tones are coming from. I utilize 4 relatively small, 12"x14.5"x28", subs with 10" long-throw aluminum drivers in a distrbuted bass array (DBA) in my room operated in mono mode from 20-40 Hz with my main speakers run full range with bass extension down to 35 Hz. I can attest that I definitely perceive the deep bass as coming from the appropriate soundstage location. I not only perceive the increased bass extension and dynamics as seamlessly integrated within the soundstage illusion in my room, this high quality bass also provides the perception that this soundstage is wider, deeper and more open with individual images that are more solid, stable, palpable and natural. I’m able to focus in on individual mages/instruments and follow their musical notes, beat as well as volume and pitch changes. This high quality audio reproduction is easy to perceive in the midrange and treble frequencies, but extending this perception all the way down to the deepest bass frequencies is unique in my experience and something that really enhances my involvement and enjoyment of all the music I play.
2. Humans can’t even perceive the exitance of sound tones in their rooms until the complete full cycle (fully formed) soundwaves exist in the room to be detected by our ears and processed as a perception of sound at a certain pitch/frequency, volume and duration. It also takes several full cycle soundwaves to be presented into the room for changes in pitch and volume to be perceived. This is simple, matter of fact and routine with the relatively short and highly directional midrange and treble frequency soundwaves in a room but becomes more complex, less matter of fact and routine with the relatively long and omnidirectional frequency soundwaves in a room. As I’ve stated previously, a 20 Hz soundwave is 56’ long, a 30 Hz is 28’, a 40 Hz is 19’, an 80 Hz is 14’, a 500 Hz is 2.7’, a 5,000 Hz is 2.7", a 10,000 Hz 1.4" and a 20,000 Hz is a fraction of an inch long. It’s easy to see from these soundwave length examples that as bass frequencies get deeper, their complete full cycle soundwaves at some point may exceed the physical dimensions of an individual’s typically sized domestic room and inevitably it requires the soundwave to reflect off of at least one room boundary (floor ceiling or walls) for the entire soundwave to exist in the room. These long deep bass soundwaves continue to reflect off room boundaries until they’re are absorbed, diffused or run out of energy and invariably collide with other reflecting and more direct bass soundwaves which cause bass room modes. These room modes are perceived as specific room spots at which the bass sounds exaggerated, attenuated or even non existent. Without using at least two independently and properly positioned deep bass drivers reproducing frequencies below about 80 Hz in a room, there’s no ability to ensure your listening seat position is bass room mode free.
The above are proven facts and realities that need to be accepted and taken as givens in any meaningful discussion concerning the attainment of very good bass response performance in any room and with any pair of main speakers. If you just positioned your main speakers at specific room spots, in relation to your listening seat, to optimize the midrange. treble and imaging performance and are also getting very good bass performance there as well without at least a pair of external and independently positioned subs, then consider yourself very lucky since you just happened by good fortune to avoid any serious bass room modes. Of course, there could also be bass room modes at your listening seat and you’re just unaware of them.
Today is a paradox for audio systems. Back in the day when sub woofers only existed in passive systems with large cabinets we were still happy. Purests in that time of the late 60s, 70s, 80s tried to sell systems with no tone controls as they do today. We were told it would "color the sound" people liked the loudness, bass and treble controls. Today if you want bass you are told to buy a sub woofer after spending a anywhere from $500 -$1000 for a pair of speakers. Guess what? The sub woofer colors the sound. I have a relative the worked as a speaker builder for paragon a acoustics back in the 80s. He built himself a pair of 6" driver towers. They used 6" woofers. Why? They not only got the bass below 30z, but were two way because the smaller cone could also get good midrange. Also, smaller drivers are easier for a power amp to control because of less moving mass. They are fast a d respond quicker to changes in music dynamics. Also because of that, less distortion. No sub was needed. They still sound great
Your existing mains, (6" driver or two): Probably in cabinets or stands to get the tweeter at seated ear height. No way to get a directional pair of woofers matched with their l/r origin.
Cut your tall enclosure, reseal the bottom, put it on a self powered sub-woofer, same l/r. Or, toss the stands, put them on the pair of sub-woofers.
Of course you need to figure out vibrational connection/isolation, but that’s easy isn’t it. Hah.
Mains with tall cabinets ’shortened’ will have less volume, BUT, the 6" no longer trying to produce bass, so, larger volume, or disruptive or non-directional port not needed.
french_fries:"
IMO outboard Subs are for movies anyway, unless your room is enormous."
Hello french_fries,
I suggest that your belief that outboard subs are only for movies, is a very clear indication that you've never heard a high quality 2-channel music system with well integrated subs or that you lack the knowledge to properly implement subs seamlessly into your own system, perhaps both? My intent is not to overly offend you, my intent is to suggest that you may not be aware of what you're missing. It's been my experience that the main characteristics that differentiates listening in person to music played live (I'm referring mainly to a smaller type settings and not to large arena type settings) and listening to music on most home audio systems, are the the accurate, detailed and highly dynamic reproduction of the bottom 2 octaves of deep bass (about 20-32 Hz)that is experienced as being felt as well as heard. Sure, the bass can still be perceived as very good without the bottom 2 octaves but it's not the same powerful, dynamic experience that is felt as well as heard and closely resembles the deep bass of music heard live and in person. There's also the issue of, even if one utilizes large main speakers with large woofers (or even multiple large woofers) and the speakers are rated as having accurate deep bass extension down to about 20 Hz, this does not mean this deep bass is necessarily perceived at your designated listening seat. This is due to what I mentioned earlier in this thread; basically that the main speakers are precisely placed in the room with the midrange/treble transducers positioned in relation to the listening seat for very good midrange, treble and imaging performance. The major problem is that the woofers are affixed in place in the same cabinet, typically below the midrange/treble speakers, and cannot be independently positioned in the room and in relation to the listening seat which is required to optimize bass performance at the listening seat. It's highly unlikely that the optimum performance room positions for the main speakers' midrange/treble and bass drivers, in relation to the listening seat, all just happen to be at the same exact floor spot in the room, with all speakers vertically aligned in the main speakers' cabinets. Outboard subs, being capable of being independently placed in the room and in relation to the listening seat, are ideal solutions for attaining high quality bass response performance at the listening seat. Using large speakers with large woofers and the midrange/treble drivers in the same cabinets, there's no guarantee that room bass modes (causing bass peaks, dips and nulls) won't exist at the listening seat. Outboard, independently and properly positioned subs will guarantee there are no bass modes at the listening seat. French fries, if you'd like
I can describe exactly how to utilize 2 subs in your system/room to attain very powerful, dynamic, detailed, fast, smooth and natural bass performance at your listening seat that integrates seamlessly with whatever main speakers you have. If you're open to using 3 or more subs, I can describe how to get near sota bass performance throughout your entire room, not just at your listening seat.
I have a highly-damped bedroom with a pair of (terrible?) inexpensive speakers with 6 in. woofers (vented). The highs aren't great I'll admit - as in not very smooth. THAT is the real challenge- the upper mids and higher frequencies never sound "just right" without some major technological effort (and the associated expense). But the bass coming out of my cheap speakers is remarkable. Jazz bass is very clear, and pipe organ is pretty good as well. In the "other room" I have a very large pair of speakers with built-in powered 15in. subs, so I think after 30 years of listening and upgrading I know what bass is by now. I agree- an 8 inch (or larger) driver is quite a bit better, but your room and your choice of music will either make your listening a relaxing experience, or you'll be reading "Magico reviews" and saving up for the day you can afford a pair. IMO outboard Subs are for movies anyway, unless your room is enormous.
Reminds me of a debate between Paul Klipsch and Edgar Villchur at a national meeting of the Acoustical Society in NYC during which Klipsch said something like "I don’t care if you push it with a broom, you still have to move the air" arguing radiating surface v excursion.
In the process of setting up my subs I was surprised that the display revealed the in-room response of my KEF Reference 1s extended to 30 Hz before dropping sharply. I supplement them with a pair of Velodyne HGS-15s crossed 4th order at 40 Hz.
@jfuquay, Magnepan is indeed using multiple small woofers in it's 30.7 For Condos model, eight 6.5" per side to be exact. But they are mounted not in a sealed or ported enclosure, but in an open baffle frame. Can't wait to hear 'em!
I love the bass that comes from the dual 2.5 way 6.5" drivers in my ProAc Studio 148s. Additionally, using some foam bungs to tune the downward firing ports and Soundocity outriggers really puts out the experience I've been looking for before I got these.
I think it’s worth noting that the prototype Magnepan “30.7 for condos” recently shown uses multiple smaller woofers for its bass component. All the options available and that’s what they chose. You can argue that the company is trying to keep up with the speed of its ribbon driver, but that responsiveness strikes me as a plus itself.
I agree with Erik, not based on measurements, but my own ears. I do all my listening via a complex desktop audio setup. I've had 5-6 different powered speakers + passives here, and the top of the heap is the ATC SCM12 Pro passives.
These have 6" woofers and easily the best tweeter I've ever heard. The bass is astounding, also the volume and fullness of sound. I do have a sub (always did) which handles notes below 70 Hz. But down to that cutoff, the bass is concussive & very detailed. The mid-bass in particular is rich & full, just like real music.
Until the ATCs I wouldn't have believed bass this good could come out of a 2-way.
My pair of EPI Model 5s agree with you. If you set a speaker up right, usually explained in the owner's manual, you get what the speaker was designed to do.
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