Since I got a new cartridge (Clear Audio Virtuoso) i’ve rediscovered the Sheffield and RR Direct Disc albums in my collection. Wow! they put everything else to shame. I picked up about twenty Sheffield D2D’s when Tower Records went out of business for a song (no pun intended.) I’m just now listening to them and find there’s nothing that sonically compares. They’re just more real sounding than anything else. Not spectacular but realistic.
@rauliruegas Not sure what racing drivers and their abilities have to do with this discussion?? BTW, "Now if in your system you can't detect that big difference in between then could be maybe because your room/system has not yet the resolution to be aware of." so IF you don't hear the differences when you go back to 'some digital recordings'...then maybe look no further.
@rauliruegas I totally agree with oldears, the Opus 3 Lp’s are superb on many levels. They do NOT have a hyped up sound that a lot of D to D’s do. I think my system is perfectly capable of hearing the differences between the two formats, which is why I stated how great the Opus 3 LP’s are, and how slightly more dynamic the Flamenco Fever is...BUT I am certainly NOT saying, as you did that the two are " in a different league". Now OTOH IF you think that a digital recording can compete with these labels and formats, well that may say something about your posts. IMHO.
OPUS3 is recorded with a single point Blumlein microphone. they will not have the hyped dynamics of many D2D recordings which may have been multi-miked through a mixer with the microphone right at the instrument. They do convey IMHO the sound of real instruments in a real space often better than most D2D. The notes for the set up discs explain the space in which they were recording, details about the instruments, and what you should hear. I have found them to be very useful tools in evaluating changes in my system. They are now very difficult to find as LPs, but as they were recorded to tape, most of them have been reissued as CDs, and a few SACDs. Again the quality is very good, and I highly recommend them.BTW the microphones and placement by Doc Johnson make the RR recordings, for me often more realistic and enjoyable than all but a few D2Ds, and again, since recorded to tape they are available digitally. The 45 RPM LPs are really good.
Dear @daveyf : I think you have the answer but let me explain a little.
First I named the Opus 3 label as one of the great tape recordered labels ever but that does not puts the label at the Flamenco Fever D2D levels and is very easy to know why.
The Flamenco Fever recording just does not touched a tape recorder and I think that I don't need to explain you all the degradation to the signal that any tape recorder makes.
Now if in your system you can't detect that big difference in between then could be maybe because your room/system has not yet the resolution to be aware of.
Unfortunatelly does not exist the tape recorder version of Flamenco Fever as in the Sheffield D2D Dave Grusin sample.
As I posted before the only tape recorder LP I experienced that can be along the well recorded D2D LPs is The Power and the Majesty but even this can't compete with the top D2D LPs as Flamenco Fever.
I posted too that the only LPs that can compete bis a bis with the best D2D ones are some very well recorded digital LPs where the tape recorder just does not can degrades the 0,1 information in there. One very good example of those digital recordings is the one I posted Paramita ( 24/96 ): astonoshing with MUSIC compositions using instruments that we normally are not accustom to other than female voice and some of the kind of drums used there.
@rauliruegas Interesting post that you said about the Opus 3 LP's not being in the 'same league' as the well recorded D to D's. Maybe you could elaborate on why you think that. Owning a large number of both D to D's and Opus 3's, I think that the best Opus 3's are competitive with the average to better D toD...not quite as dynamic as the very best D to D's...but I certainly would NOT state the Opus 3's are 'not in the same league'. For instance, I was recently listening to the excellent M&K LP 'Flamenco Fever' which is IMO one of the best D to D's that I own...I then compared it to my copy of Opus 3 Yuyachifca. The M&K is more dynamic and has a slightly deeper soundstage, but the recording SQ of the Opus 3 is extraordinary...and is certainly close to the M&K!
Dear @rvpiano and friends : I need to fix my mistake on what I posted on that D2D 45rpm LP of my last post.
"
Very good indeed. "
No, it's not that way. The player performance is mediocre one but the sound is not good even that is a D2D 45rpm recording. The sound is lifeless, that Steinway instrument sounds just bad and this could be because the engineers choosed four Neumann microphones and they chossed that at least 2 of them were at only 5cms. above the strings and did not let the instrument possibility to breathe. All instruments needs its own minimum space to performs at its best and that did not happens in this recording.
Dear @rvpiano and friends: I wasn't aware that this 45ropm LP is D2D and I'm referring to the Toshiba/EMI Jun Fukamachi at Steinway ( Nocturne Chopin . ) recorded in 1976. At the front LP jacket is the picture of the face of a black cat.
Very good indeed.
In the information page inside the jacket we can read this:
"" a cartridge is required which can handle a much higher dynamic range.....sometimes it migth not be able to track correctly the grooves which has been recorded at such high level. Distortions, vibration, or, in some cases skipping of the stylus migth occur....... """""
Yes, they are totally rigth: the self tracking cartridge abilities is very important and makes a paramount differences in the quality sound when we are talking of these kind of LP D2D recordings. Several times at micro levels the stylus tip is skipping and we not even be aware of. So the cartridge is the must important link in the room/system to achieve and honor the very high quality sound levels that many of the D2D recordings have ( obviously along a good tonearm match. ).
Cartridges with high tracking abilities is the name of the game here and with well recorded digital LP's.
I had purchased a number of Sheffield discs when they were released. Specific to this conversation I purchased two of each of the Amanda McBroom albums. At that moment in time these two records were used relentlessly at stores to audition equipment. How many times did the staff have to hear Amanda? I confess my wife and I brought West of Oz into stores and auditioned, then bought, speakers based on her voice alone. Jump ahead a couple of decades and the same reaction was had at stores when Jennifer Warnes' Ballad of the Runaway Horse" was requested. I was a witness for that as well.
On more than one occasion I have offered my still-sealed second copies of the Sheffield McBroom albums for sale on-line. I have never received one response, let alone an offer. I have tried to sell them to record stores, but the re-seller business calculus prohibits any reasonable offers from the proprietors (it's not their fault, it's just the way it is). So the second copies have sat, sealed, on the shelf for about 40 years.
I must have made an error as to the RR recordings, the early recordings were so dynamic and real sounding that I forgot they were from tape. I also have great M&Ks (a dozen of them), Opus 3 recordings, Nautilus and Pierre Verany LPs. I would like to obtain the Mamba Percussions as my Verany discs are of baroque music and not as interesting.
Dear @rvpiano and friends: One D2D that we need to own comes by Ortofon that as we all know marketed the first commercial LOMC cartridge and Ortofon was too cutter heads manufacturer.
Several years ago I bougth around 25 test record ( Shure, CBS, Stereo Review, HI-Fi Sound, Micro-Acoustic, Vanguard, EMI, Denon, Telarc, Audio Technica and the like. ) and one of them was the pick-up test record by Ortofon that when I bought it I was not aware is a D2D LP recording and when I used the very first time that was really nice surprise because not only for its very special recorded tests but because in one LP side comes with classical MUSIC demostration/tests tracks with the Tivoli Symphony Orchestra and recorded inside the Tivoli Hall at Copenhagen Tivoli Gardens.
The recording is up there with the best D2D to enjoy that quality sound level on the recorded MUSIC an additional a very good test LP. Recomended.
Some of you already own The Power and the Majesty MoFi LP? if yes please give a listen and share your opinion about especially with the Thunderstorm track compared with the quality sound ofwell recorded D2D LPs and if you don’t owned yet then it’s good time to do it.
Now that I speak about dedicated test records I think that the well recorded and top D2D recordings are really " dedicated " room/system test records with an exceptional quality sound.
Dear @oldears : I own all Opues 3 and mentioned that even that are very good recorded and even used as a system test are not in the same league of the well recorded D2D LPs. Of course only a first hand experienced opinion.
@angeloinny you are rigth Nautilus label had good D2D recordings and even very good non D2D LPs too.
Dear @fleschler : To what RR label are you reffereing to?, if it’s Reference Recording I think I own all its recordings and no D2D LPs down there or at least I did not know RR has it. If is the same label and exist D2D from them I'm interested to know it and try to find out.
@oddlots M.Lavigne already posted it and I own at least one of them and is good recording but not up to best D2D several LPs that exist.
I have most all of the D2D mentioned, but feel I should submit some other great LPs. The OPUS 3 are fine recordings with special mics in defined acoustical spaces. They issued a series of system setup discs: imaging, dynamics, timbre, etc. Even better are the Pierre Verany LPs. The Mamba Percussions is amazing!
My first Sheffield was Lincoln Mayorga and Distinguished Colleagues, which I purchased at Opus One in Pittsburgh in 1973. I've enjoyed many, particularly the Harry James and Erich Leinsdorf leading the LA Philharmonic in Debussy's Prelude to the afternoon of a fawn and Stravinsky's Firebird Suite. Other D2D's are Virgil Fox on Crystal Clear Records playing the Fratelli organ at the Crystal Cathedral, the Glenn Miller Orchestra, and Louis Bellson Note Smoking on Discwasher's label. My analog setup is a Linn LP12 with Cirkus and Lingo, an Ekos arm and Akiva cartridge feeding a Clearaudio Balance phono stage, Parasound Halo P7, Classe CA-5200, and Revel Performa F30's and a Performa B15 sub.
no one mentioned the 1982 Nautilus D2D LP "Secrets of the Andes" by Victor Feldman? Lots of 'air'....you can hear the musicians breath and turn pages on the music stands if one listens closely....hard to find nowadays in mint condition...a CD is available but no cigar compared to the LP IMHO. https://www.discogs.com/Victor-Feldman-Secret-Of-The-Andes/release/3447375
I was fortunate to purchase over 75+ D2D discs, half from wholesalers at $1/disc in the 1980s when CD was driving out LPs. They include many RR, Sheffield, Crystal Clear, Toshiba, RCA and American Gramophone discs. They are generally well recorded. The Japanese discs were generally of Japanese performers but still very enjoyable. The performances often have a hightened presence, an excitement (or anxiety) to create a perfect performance. I find them close to R2R dynamics and sound quality. Just great to hear.
As some of you may know, Peter Lindemann at Soundsmith has been recording a number of D2D performances on his own cutting rig for some time now and offering them for sale. It's all to support a child welfare charity that he is a part of. You can check them out on his site.
Dear friends: My mistake: the label is Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs and the recording is an Original Master Recording. The recorder Brad Miller was the founder of MoFi label. Here something of his history:
"""
As a producer and recording engineer Mr. Miller changed the music industry for the better. Brad Miller had two driving passions - sound and quality. If you count yourself as an audiophile, you probably owe Brad Miller some measure of gratitude.
Brad Miller (1939-1998), was an acknowledged master of recording outdoor environmental and man-made machine sounds. He began his career by recording the sounds of steam engine railroad trains as a teenager during the 1950's, releasing LP's on his own Mobile Fidelity Records. In 1965, he founded the Mystic Moods Orchestra (a.k.a. Nature's Mystic Moods), which mixed the sounds of machines and/or the environment with orchestral music. In 1977, he founded the renowned audiophile label Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab. He produced music projects through the companies Mobile Fidelity Productions and Mobile Fidelity International Productions. Brad Miller died September 9, 1998. In 1955, Brad recorded the sounds of one of a steam locomotives for the first time. He borrowed his father's Ampro monaural tape recorder along with a crystal microphone, and recorded passing steam trains from the Burbank tower, and at Surf, California where he vacationed with a telegrapher friend. A kind Los Angeles round-house foreman installed a power converter (32 volts DC to 110 AC) so that Brad could make his first cab recording aboard a Southern Pacific #4455 engine.
In the fall of 1957, Brad and a friend named Jim Connella decided to record and release a record album of Southern Pacific steam locomotive sounds. In March, 1958, Mobile Fidelity released album MF-1. They released two more monaural albums before the end of 1958. In September, 1958, Brad traveled through Wyoming, Colorado and Nebraska, recording locomotives while living on hamburgers and sleeping in his car. He had purchased an Ampex 601-2 tape recorder and a pair of Electro-Voice microphones, a battery and an ATR converter. The trip resulted in Highball, MF-4, Mobile Fidelity Record's first stereo album. High Fidelity Magazine praised the album.
While recording the sounds of steam locomotives, Brad had on occasion captured other outdoor sounds. This inspired Brad's idea of expanding the soundstage to give the listener a more panoramic environmental scene. Mobile Fidelity's MF-8, released in September of 1961, was entitled Steam Railroading Under Thundering Skies. As the title implies, the record featured the sounds of locomotives combined with rainstorms. The album was recognized in Billboard Magazine as their "specialty pick of the week".
One night in 1964, a San Francisco disc jockey - Ernie McDaniel of KFOG-FM - played Steam Railroading Under Thundering Skies on one turntable and some music on his other turntable, and broadcast both simultaneously. Listeners responded very favorably, as the station's phones lit up and hundreds of requests to hear the combination flooded the radio station. McDaniel relayed his actions to Brad Miller, and Miller spent three months creating One Stormy Night, the first album of the Mystic Moods Orchestra. Among many other productions with the highly successful Mystic Moods Orchestra, Brad Miller also made two solo "sound-effects" albums in the late 70's and early 80's. The Power and the Majesty and The Power and the Majesty Volume 2 which were both released on Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab. """
Dear @rvpiano and friends: We are talking of D2D qualityb recording alternative and with out doubt the well recorded ones are in other different league than the LP recordings coming from the R2R.
We all know that exist several labels ( ACT Music, ATR, FIM, Opus3, Stockfish, Clarity, Stereophile, Audioquest, RR, same Sheffield, Wilson, Water Lily, Athena, Levinson, Rega, Propirous, VTL, OMR, etc, etc. ) with great quality recordings that are not D2D recorded and against the well recorded D2D LP’s just can beats it or even it and against the top D2D LPs no contest at all, these ones are just untouchable.
Well in my opinion and first hand experiences exist one tape recorded LP that can be in the same league as the well recorded D2D and this LP is a must to have for any one of us that like top qualityb recording.
The LP comes from Original Master Recording label ( MFSL 004 . ) and was recorded between 1975 and 1977, title: The Power and the Majesty.
It’s the recording of 1940’s steam locomotive and an outstanding live Thunderstorm. In this track when one drop of the rain hits a window and when rain drops hits the already rainy flor is extremely real as if you was exactly there and one of the thunders too, I said the track is outstanding but this is a misunderstood because there are not words to explain it other than a live/real event: nothing less. Astonishing quality recording for say the least.
Recorded by Brad Miller and the Remote 4/2 channel recording system were designed by Carl Countryman ( totally unknow for me. ) and master laquers by Stan Ricker.
If you can’t own/buy it at least look for a friend that has it and listen it. A high resolution room/system is a must to.
Oh, and perhaps most important of all: Keltner favours metal-shelled snare drums (particularly brass), Tutt wood. Brass is brighter and wetter (more high-frequency ring), wood darker and drier (less ring). Of course, that is effected by the tensioning/tuning of the batter and resonant heads, the tensioning of the snare wires, and the amount of damping applied to the top/batter head, via absorptive pads (as Ringo preferred) or Moon Gel. John Bonham played his Ludwigs wide open (no damping), except for his bass (kick) drum.
To hear the difference between metal and wood-shelled snare drums, compare the snare sound on "The Night They Drove Ol' Dixie Down" to the other tracks on The Band's brown album. To play the press roll on the former, Levon required the sensitivity and "wetness" of his old metal-shell Ludwig Supraphonic (those made prior to 1963 brass, '63 and later aluminum alloy). The wood-shell snare drum that was part of his stage set was too dry/dead to make for a good pr. That drum originally came with gut snare wires (as opposed to more modern metal), which, considering it's sound, it may have still been fitted with. VERY dry.
@tomic601, Tom and I really hit it off. I would always gravitate to his workbench when I went into Brooks Berdan, Ltd., where I would watch him find the problem in (often) Jadis amps. He is one of only two guys I would let near a Music Reference amp (the other being clio09). Both of mine (RM-10 Mk.2 & RM-200 MK.2) are unmolested, factory stock. The mods guys would perform on his amps drove Modjeski mad!
About Keltner and Tutt’s drums: in the 70’s (when the Sheffield albums were made) Keltner was playing double-headed (heads on both top and bottom of each drum) Pearl drums, Tutt single-headed (top/batter head only) Ludwigs. So their drum sound could not have been more different. Plus, they used different size sticks, and had different "touches".
Keltner came to Rock/Pop from Jazz, having been born in Tulsa and moving to Pasadena at a young age. His favorite drummer (one of mine too) is Roger Hawkins (The Swampers---the Muscle Shoals studio band, Traffic). To hear the father of Rock ’n’ Roll drumming, listen to Earl Palmer (Little Richard, The Wrecking Crew). I, along with lots of other drummers, used to go see him play live at Chadney’s Steak House in Burbank (which closed in the late-90’s), across the street from the NBC studio where The Tonight Show is taped.
Dear @bdp24 : """
is a master at drum tuning, his drums usually sounding great.. """
Thank's. I think that's why I heard what I heard on Keltner track.
"""
and is a true musical artist, not "just" a drummer. """
Yes, his playing " feeling " says the keltner enjoyment of what he is doing and what wants to share through. That cadence and rythm makes a difference, he catch you.
Keltner plays Paiste cymbals, Tutt A. Zildjians; the two brands sound very different. I played A. Zildjians in my younger years, switching to Paiste 602's in the mid-70's. Keltner is a master at drum tuning, his drums usually sounding great (though live I found his DW's to be too "ringy", LOTS of sustain). Tutt I never heard live, and his drumming with Elvis not to my taste (he's fine in the Roy Orbison tribute show).
Keltner has done far more recording than Tutt, and is a true musical artist, not "just" a drummer. Ry Cooder arranges his recordings around Keltner's availability. And then there was Leon Russell, who didn't care for his drumming. He asked Elton John to dismiss him from the recording sessions for their album together.
Dear @harrylavo : Yes, Keltner use additional rythmic instruments and in the other side he and Ron feel the MUSIC in different way or each one recording session mood was what they show up in the LP.
The overall Keltner instrument performs with better top to bottom equilibrium. Something is not exactly " rigth " in the Ron work and the recording producer mentioned it as the differences in between that are important ones.
@bdp24 : """
I said many d-2-d’s are tepid, not all of them. ""
Well, for me makes no sense at all your statement due that all recorded artist were/are professionals ( not roockies/amateur. ) whom play at live events many times in their lifes and a live event is D2D event.
You said " many D-2-D " and only to be congruent with your statement at least let us know 2-3 " tepid " recordings of those " many " you talk about. Could you? Please no " dead silence ".
Keltner is playing "jazz" on his solo .... multiple, multiple rythmic and sonic variations on a simple (in this case) rythmic underlay ... both stated and danced around. Tutt is simply doing what drummers usually do while trying to show off .... all kinds of "sound effects". You may not think of it that way, but that is why Keltner is so often preferred.
One of the best sounding D2D recordings I have heard is a recent one of my Canadian friend: https://www.annebisson.com/en/product/four-seasons-in-jazz-live-at-bernies-2/ Recorded at Bernie Grundman Studios in LA. I have serial # 2277 and 2274 available for $ 100 USD including shipping. info@americanhifi.com
Eric - Tom at Brooks says hello he cleaned up all the past tech sins on the RM-9. i agree on Charlie - that dude is the real deal :-) i think ( supposedly ) mint they only go for $20 on Discogs. i have something in mind to send ya
I haven't seen Buddy Rich "Class of '78" mentioned. I bought it new when it came out. Blew everything else I had at the time out of the water. Still sounds great today.
Btw, i picked up a sealed copy of The King James Version for 2 bucks at Second & Charles a couple of years ago.
Dear @bdp24 .""" Keltner’s playing is good, but Tutt choked a little.."""
after your post I posted: """ but for some reason I like a little more the Keltner instrument sound especially cymbals...."""
Over my audio life and with focus in live MUSIC I developed/builded what for me and my friends is a good wide frequency high resolution room/system to achieve the best MUSIC quality I can according my ignorance levels.
Well, yesterday i listened twice my Sheffield Drum Record that I didn’t listen from several months now and I confirm with out doubt what I posted and that the Keltner track is superior to the Ron one that’s good but at the Keltner one. The Keltner kick drum has an impact as has to be ( I listened at 95dbs level at seat position . ) that the Ron just has not. In the LP inside page information by the producers says that the Ron goes lower and yes goes a little lower but with out the rigth impact. Down there says too that the snare drum in Ron instrument has an additional microphone and has darker sound than the Kelter snare drum and says too that the Zildjian cymbals in the Ron instrument is sweet than the Kelter ones and any one can hear exactly all those if the system has a wide frequency response and resolution to.
The improvisations in the Keltner work are way alive against the " darkness " in the Ron improvisation track. Where the Ron track is a little more detailed and precise is when he hits the near to center cymbals surface.
I think that the the frequency band response in the Keltner instrument is more equilibrated than the Ron one.
Any one of you that already own this Sheffield recording can confirm what I’m saying here and obviously that could be that I can be wrong but when I posted about was because my memory told me that because in the past I listened this LP very often and was part of my whole test/evaluation self system process.
bdp24, when you can have the time give a listen again.
Btw, the main engineer and lathe operator in the Sheffield D2D LPs were not the same in all the LP’s but different gentlemans.
I was also wondering if anybody else finds 45 RPM albums to be too noisy?
i’d say you have to be more specific about 45rpm albums. and not all turntables are created equal.
i likely own 95-99% of all the 45rpm albums out there (1500+) produced in the last 25 years, as well as most from earlier eras, and they are very quiet as a group. OTOH since the record is traveling at a higher speed, the lead-in grooves and between cuts will have slightly more ’noise’. but the signal to noise ratio of the musical data is better than 33rpm since there is ’more’ data. the noise recedes farther into the background, more detail and nuance emerges, and more music comes out.
but if your turntable is not quiet (more rumble and flutter or actual motor noise) at 45rpm, which some are not, then, of course, that is what you will hear. obviously the better turntables will be quieter at the higher speed.
and........if you are referring to the 70’s and 80’s 12" singles and ’dance’ re-mix 45’s, those are a crap shoot as the quality is all over the board. many are a mess and noisy. they were generally not mastered and pressed with great care. a few though, are very quiet.
One of my favorite records to listen to is: Les Brown and his band of renown Goes Direct To Disc. It was manufactured in West Germany and the label is Century Records. It says limited edition.
I was also wondering if anybody else finds 45 RPM albums to be too noisy?
Hey @tomic601, good one! That I filed Musselwhite's d-2-d LP (Times Are Gettin' Tougher Than Tough) not in my "audiophile" section, but rather in with the "normal" LP's, proves that I value it not just for sound but for music as well. I found a copy up here in Vancouver for ten bucks, but it's not the cleanest copy. I guess the previous owner wasn't an audiophile. ;-)
Eric - you and I have spent enough time in recording studio to realize what a feat a d2d side represents - nobody nails it perfectly. Yes the Thelma is bright , hot, saturated on spots but in the right parts her voice is monumental:-)
happy 70th dude - will send you a disc or two - ))) Brother
Geez guys, I said many d-2-d’s are tepid, not all of them! That’s why I was willing to pay $75 for a Mint copy of For Duke, the most I've ever spent on an LP. In the not tepid column I would include many of the Classical titles. Classical musicians are used to playing entire sides with no overdubs to correct mistakes. Jazz guys too. Have you heard the old joke about mistakes? If you repeat a "wrong" note next time around in the song, it’s no longer a mistake.
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