The Truth About Power Cords and there "Real" Price to Performance

Maybe get NASA or DARPA, MIT, even AES to vouch for some cable or power cord. 🥱

In that case, technical or scientific data could be fully employed to guide purchasing decisions - rather than vague claims by the cable manufacturers to justify their outrageous prices
+2

Thanks to dimora and turnbowm for introducing technical analysis into this discussion of the benefits of high end power cables.  I firmly believe that science should be the primary factor in deciding how lovers of pure sound reproduction should spend their money and set their priorities in making their purchases.

As I mentioned earlier,  "I am very skeptical about the actual benefits of the host of fancy expensive power and speaker cords out there. The first thing I notice about the ads and write ups for these devices is the lack of any hard technical performance data - such as improvements in distortion, frequency response, damping factor and noise levels."

In terms of power cables, dimora correctly pointed out that the house wiring leading to the actual power cable could entirely negate any benefits of an elaborate cable shielding or configuration.  In this situation, a power conditioner, coupled with quality standard cable would make a more sensible spending choice.

Electrical engineer turnbowm could find no valid justification for large expenditures on power cables, other than assuring that the current carrying capacity was generous and the quality of the contacts robust.

My “Handbook of Instructions” for my Marantz Model Fifteen vintage power amplifier, makes no mention of replacing the “stock” power cords of this dual unit - and again recommends using ordinary 18 gauge lamp cord for speaker connections up to 30 feet and heavier gauges for longer distances. A unit of this outstanding quality, would surely have suggested using upgraded cables - if “perfectionist” audio designers Sid Smith and Dick Sequerra had any concerns about compromising its performance in any way!

I am again questioning the rationale - other than pure subjective judgement - of expenditures that could be better diverted to more quality electronics or mechanical components in the system. In that case, technical or scientific data could be fully employed to guide purchasing decisions - rather than vague claims by the cable manufacturers to justify their outrageous prices!

To All,
This topic most certainly catches the eyes of many who have already gone down this road and many that have not, I myself wondered and asked why so mush for what and I still haven't heard a specific clear answer. What I can say is that  Jay Luong's  27 Best Audiophile Power Cables has been one of the best if not the best attempt to put things somewhat into perspective in regards to the manufactures, models, and prices as well as what to expect at there particular value proposition.

Still today this topic seems to be unsolved I as well many of us still believe that much of whats out there is still marketing hype which again us as the consumers takes the risk of the product not performing and ultimately ending up in the guinea pig walk of shame closest based on many of the above comments in this thread. That being said I invited most all of the manufactures Jay Luong  reviewed and even a few he did not to come to the table to set things straight to only get the age ole my cable is the best as a response along with some build recipes and or formula and why they are in there opinion.

Conclusion and Novel Thought for All:
I would think that by now it would be in everyone/s best interest if the manufacture would lay out what model should best coexist with what brand sound signature and what the consumer should expect to hear along with a 30 day total satisfaction guarantee as does only a few do out there. 

The capacity of Humans for self-delusion is apparently unlimited - Mr.Spock

Nicely said ... but here's the counter point.

Mr. Spock himself is the product of human unlimited self-delusion.  

One point about high end cables: they all look a whole lot better than zip cord and Romex!

Agree!  And this is a legitimate reason to spend $$$ on them.  Nothing wrong at all with "looking good!"

One point about high end cables: they all look a whole lot better than zip cord and Romex!

atdavid438 posts11-20-2019 1:00pm"For the same reason an RC-snubber across a diode or FET is not a Zobel network ...."

They both have a resistor in series with a capacitor. To me, that makes them the same except for the name. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

For the same reason an RC-snubber across a diode or FET is not a Zobel network ....

atdavid,

How is the series R-C network (Zobel) that is used to provide a constant impedance different from the series R-C circuit used by Polk to dampen power amp oscillations? To me, they serve a dual purpose.

I thought you might find this excerpt from Nelson Pass's discussion of speaker cables to be of interest. ...

"After a period of confusion, Matt Polk and I realized independently tahat the lack of a characteristic termination was causing the problem. Polk developed and patented a "damper" consisting of a .047uF capacitor and 6 ohm resistor in series placed across the loudspeaker, while I used the same network but with .1uF and 5 ohms. The results of this network are seen in Fig. 8 where the resonance in the pulsed waveform is damped out, restoring stability to an otherwise oscillating amplifier. Since Polk's commercial introduction of the damper circuit we have found it cures oscillation problems caused by the other exotic low inductance cables. It is necessary whenever a reasonably long length (>3 feet) of low inductance cable is mated with any wide bandwidth amplifier. It interacts unfavorably with twin lead conductors (Fig. 8) which require higher impedance values (say, .01uF, 60(2); however, twin lead's higher characteristic impedance and resonant frequencies are in any case unlikely to induce oscillation in amplifiers now available."  
https://www.passlabs.com/press/speaker-cables-science-or-snake-oil

It is not a Zobel network, though it looks the same, it performs a much different function.

A Zobel network is placed, typically across the woofer, so that as the impedance of the woofer goes up, the Zobel network simulates a constant impedance. That constant impedance allows the crossover to work properly. These were used in speakers well before Polk.


Polk patented putting an RC-damper/snubber across the speaker terminals. The purpose of this was to dampen high frequency oscillations.

turnbowm50 posts11-20-2019 2:14pm
atdavid432 posts11-20-2019 10:10am"Originally patented by Polk 30ish years ago."

Matt Polk did indeed patent the use of Zobel networks in loudspeakers. That was in response to power amps self-destructing when using Polk’s high-capacitance Cobra speaker cables.

The concept of Zobel networks, however, was developed by Otto Zobel of Bell Labs in 1923.

twoleftears1,947 posts11-20-2019 10:36am"Any way you slice it, Noel Lee has a lot to answer for."

What exactly should Noel Lee answer for? 

atdavid432 posts11-20-2019 10:10am"Originally patented by Polk 30ish years ago."

Matt Polk did indeed patent the use of Zobel networks in loudspeakers. That was in response to power amps self-destructing when using Polk's high-capacitance Cobra speaker cables.

The concept of Zobel networks, however, was developed by Otto Zobel of Bell Labs in 1923.

mikepowellaudio88 posts11-18-2019 12:55amAtDavid and Dimora , Mi Casa es Su Casa for anything HiFi related. Its no trick of marketing , Im not smart enough for that. I’m sick of hearing this back and forth perpetual argument. I want to abolish it. I just offered anyone lets do this .. did you see how much interest there was in stopping the argument and getting to the bottom of it. ? Clearly nobody will come from overseas, that never crossed my mind. So you 2 are perfect, you guys dont know me and I will state for the record I dont think I know either of you, but based on moniker I dont know you guys.. So do either of you two have any $1000 plus power cords ? if so , we’ve got a shootout. If not, then you two are Audiogon forum users that can represent the AG Group for this thread. Keep in mind, I am a straight shooter. if something sounds better than my cable I will acknowledge it, furthermore if we become friends while you are here you must maintain an honest opinion even if you think Im a great guy and the other cable sounds better. Now if there is no $1K plus cable you can bring, then I need to know if you each are power cord believers or not, if you are , then come over any ways and we can listen to 3D Holographic imaging. Its a good reference point from which to judge other rigs, and its always fun for me to experience it in other peoples rigs because it is elusive. If you dont know what you think or better yet are a non believer that is OK with being converted to believer (if its truly heard) then come on over and Ill prove power cords work an a big way. There are some folks not willing to be converted , and that bias makes a closed mind, so its futile at that point. Every Friday is HiFi Fridays around here. I am in Smyrna by the new Battery Park if you google my username or just go to my username.com youll find my phone number to call and chat.. ame.com youll find my phone number to call and chat..

atdavid432 posts11-18-2019 11:23amI am there for work every 8 weeks approximately, but no guarantees on a Friday. I am certainly in. I don’t think it matters if me or Dimora is a believer or not, as long as you are. If you can pick your cables out blind (or between a basic shielded cable and yours) then you have proved they make a difference.

I have a strong suspicion this exercise will go nowhere. No such meeting will ever happen. Prove me wrong.

Any way you slice it, Noel Lee has a lot to answer for.

Originally patented by Polk 30ish years ago.

"....The first failure he put down to simple component failure, but when the second amp fried very quickly after power on he suspected something else was the cause - I believed it to be his TOTL Cardas speaker cables which had a very high capacitance...."

Goertz ribbon speaker cables also have high-capacitance that can be problematic to the degree that they offer a 'R/C Link' to combat amplifier instability issues. The R/C Link (aka, Zobel Network) is a resistor in series with a capacitor that is placed across the amplifier output to keep the demons at bay.  

   "....if there are no specific values for inductance/capacitance, then how do you know you were comparing cables with higher/lower values? "

atdavid,

I always buy speaker cable in bulk and terminate them myself. I use mfg's published data and, if they don't provide it, I ask. Below are several examples that I've used....

Kimber 8TC:       Ls = 0.09uH/m
Mogami W3104: Ls = 0.6uH/m 

Well, there is always the exception to "the Norm"

Actually it's always analog.  What you interpret as "abrupt" or "sudden" or "just like that", in the analog world, there is always some "transitional curve".  The "transitional curve" may not be able to be "recorded" or "captured" by our perception or our ability since our brain cannot capture things like the oscilloscope can, but it's there.   

In order to have "just like that" in the real world, the energy required is "infinite".  Like a step response, on paper, it's abrupt.  But in the real world, there is no such thing as a "step response" since it would require "infinite" amount of energy.  

WRT:

the amp + speaker combination will affect the sound as the cable capacitance gradually changes. It’s not something that happens abruptly, like a 90 degree cliff.

Well, there is always the exception to "the Norm" - I know a guy that fried his Ayre amp and then fried a Gryphon integrated amp loaned to him - almost as soon as he turned each of them on.

The first failure he put down to simple component failure, but when the second amp fried very quickly after power on he suspected something else was the cause - I believed it to be his TOTL Cardas speaker cables which had a very high capacitance.

Since his system had worked prior to this event, we looked at what had changed.
He had just upgraded the power cable on the amp, so we believed the Ayre had probably been teetering on the brink of severe oscillation for a long time - then he upgraded the power cable and Ka-Boooom!

I believe the Gryphon fried almost as soon as he turned it on using the same cables.

We surmised the "improved performance" of that power cable was likely "the last straw" for both amps.

When we got the Gryphon back I loaned him some low capacitance speaker cables and all was well - but what surprised me is, the technician had never heard of this issue.

High capacitance cables are only an issue with some high current solid state designs - I am told by many sources that tube amps DO NOT suffer the same problem.

I have heard high capacitance cables might be preferable with certain amp/speaker combinations, but I have no experience of that.

But this is something audiophiles with solid state amps should be aware of.

I avoid high capacitance speaker cables for use with all my amps - just to be safe :-)

Regards - Steve

andy2,

An instability does not mean it has to oscillate, it could simply mean a settling issue, and to your point, an impact on the sound.

And no, turnbowm, my experience accidentally making more of a capacitor than a cable is not a perfect example. Kimber cable is typically 30-100pf/foot, I think the higher Cardas is close to 500pF/ft. I was close to 100nF for a 12 foot length.


turnbown, if there are no specific values for inductance/capacitance, then how do you know you were comparing cables with higher/lower values?

There are no specific values/limits for inductance and capacitance because of variables in the application. Your experience with amplifier instability using high capacitance speaker cables is a perfect example.

Your experience with amplifier instability using high capacitance speaker cables is a perfect example.

Also in the analog world, amp does not go from "working perfectly" to "instability" just like that like 1's and 0's.  There is a transitional curve and during being on this curve, the amp sound quality will change before instability sets in.  So by simple logic, the amp + speaker combination will affect the sound as the cable capacitance gradually changes.  It's not something that happens abruptly, like a 90 degree cliff.  

"Now about those values of capacitance and inductance where they become an issue?"  

atdavid,

There are no specific values/limits for inductance and capacitance because of variables in the application. Your experience with amplifier instability using high capacitance speaker cables is a perfect example.

My preference for low inductance in speaker cables and low capacitance in interconnects is based on numerous listening sessions. There are other considerations, but these are my primary ones.

Very good shielding primarily on interconnects, and a properly connected shield and good connectors to ensure a proper connection. With the exception of a decade plus ago on a cable that intentionally colored the sound, I have never detected capacitance that would be impactful to sound in my components. As capacitance is so low, dielectric absorption becomes a non-issue, and since interconnects are no impedance matched, not worried about that either.

For speakers, heavy gauge with intertwined connectors mainly for shielding, though I have never perceived an issue. Again, not really worried about inductance as any cable inductance is buried in the noise floor of component values in the speaker. I did accidentally make a speaker cable with wickedly high capacitance that made an amplifier unstable, but that would not have been considered normal construction.

Now about those values of capacitance and inductance where they become an issue?

atdavid,

You never answered my question....

"Is there any scientific reasoning behind your choice of audio cables?"  

"I would be very surprised if anyone in the last 30 years ever said high capacitance or high inductance were virtues. So, I guess what I’m saying is what else is new? But surely we can agree there are other desirable cable and power cord characteristics. Please don’t tell me it all comes down to L, R, C. That horse has been beat to death."

GK,

I never said that "it all comes down to L,R and C." Material (conductor & insulator) properties and cable design are important factors, as previously mentioned.

I don't mean generically, I mean can you put some numbers to this characteristics? I.e. at what inductance does a speaker cable start to matter? At what capacitance does an interconnect start to matter?

turnbowm43 posts11-19-2019 6:51pm"If you are able to relate the sonic differences to cable construction, I would assume you can relate that to measurable engineering quantities?"
 
atdavid,

Absolutely. I have found, for example, that low inductance is a desirable characteristic in speaker cables. On the other hand, low capacitance seems to be the key for interconnects.

Is there any scientific reasoning behind your choice of audio cables?

I would be very surprised if anyone who makes cables or power cords in the last 30 years ever said high capacitance or high inductance were virtues. I guess what I’m saying is what else is new? But surely we can agree there are other desirable cable and power cord characteristics. Please don’t tell me it all comes down to L, R, C. That horse has been beat to death.

"If you are able to relate the sonic differences to cable construction, I would assume you can relate that to measurable engineering quantities?"
  
atdavid,

Absolutely. I have found, for example, that low inductance is a desirable characteristic in speaker cables. On the other hand, low capacitance seems to be the key for interconnects.

Is there any scientific reasoning behind your choice of audio cables?

GK,

You are correct. I was in the electronics industry, not audio. However, music and the equipment that provides it has been my passion for even longer. My engineering background comes into play when making any and all decisions related to audio.  

turnbrown,

If you are able to relate the sonic differences to cable construction, I would assume you can relate that to measurable engineering quantities?

turnbowm41 posts11-19-2019 5:53pmvinylguy2016,

Being an engineer (EE) with 30+ years of experience in the industry, I understand where you're coming from. During listening tests of audio cables (speaker & interconnects), however, I found audible differences which can be explained by examination of material (conductor & insulator) properties and design differences (coaxial, twisted pair, etc.).

turnbowm41
vinylguy2016,

Being an engineer (EE) with 30+ years of experience in the industry...

>>>>>>One assumes the industry you’re referring to is not audio.

vinylguy2016,

Being an engineer (EE) with 30+ years of experience in the industry, I understand where you're coming from. During listening tests of audio cables (speaker & interconnects), however, I found audible differences which can be explained by examination of material (conductor & insulator) properties and design differences (coaxial, twisted pair, etc.).

In the case of power cables, however, I have yet to find discernible differences between audiophile PCs and generic ones of equivalent gauge. IMHO, there is no benefit in using expensive, after-market PCs on equipment with properly designed power supplies. I believe that Bryston and Pass Labs are of the same opinion.

@vinylguy2016

The Marantz 7 while a classic, isn't the best sounding preamp out there IMO.

How could you possibly know whether a different power cord would improve or degrade it if you have not heard it.

vinylguy2016

As a mature engineer, vintage component lover, and a recent member of Audiogon - I am very skeptical about the actual benefits of the host of fancy, expensive power and speaker cords out there ... Don’t we need more hard "scientific" data explaining what actually makes these "fancy" cables sound "better"? I personally, will stick by the recommendations of Mr. Smith and Mr. Sequerra!

A great many audiophiles rely on their own listening tests to make decisions about things such as cables, so I don’t think "we" require more scientific data. Of course it’s fine if your preference is to review data before listening.

Have you ever auditioned what you call "fancy" cables? You’d be a good test subject; because of your skepticism, you wouldn’t suffer from positive confirmation bias.

Many adopters of better cables started as a skeptic, just like yourself.

+1 vinylguy2016! You are indeed a lucky fellow to own a Marantz 7! A true classic! 

Vinylguy2016
As an example, I am the proud owner of a highly coveted Marantz Model 7 tube preamplifier, which was originally fitted by Marantz with a heavy, but otherwise standard power cable. I cannot imagine how the impeccable performance of this unit could possibly be degraded by the absence of a "high end" power cord.  

>>>>Define impeccable performance.

As a mature engineer, vintage component lover, and a recent member of Audiogon - I am very skeptical about the actual benefits of the host of fancy, expensive power and speaker cords out there.  The first thing I notice about the ads and write ups for these devices is the lack of any hard technical performance data - such as improvements in distortion, frequency response, damping factor and noise levels.

I realize that technical performance specs do not tell the "whole story" in evaluating great, natural sound - but a technical explanation of how a particular power or speaker cable actually works to produce better sound over a "stock" unshielded cable is almost always lacking.  Instead, there are elaborate descriptions and diagrams of cable construction and materials - purely subjective evaluations of the resulting sonic improvement - and glowing praise for the expertise of the cable "designer".

As an example, I am the proud owner of a highly coveted Marantz Model 7 tube preamplifier, which was originally fitted by Marantz with a heavy, but otherwise standard power cable.  I cannot imagine how the impeccable performance of this unit could possibly be degraded by the absence of a "high end" power cord. 

The "Instruction Manual" for my Model 7, written by Marantz engineers Sid Smith and Dick Sequerra, states the following:  "Ordinary 18 gauge lamp cord may be used for connection between an amplifier and loudspeaker if the distance is short.  If more than 25 or 30 feet is required, it would be advisable to use a heavier gauge to reduce power loss and damping factor deterioration".

So my question to you all is simply this:  If some of the best audio designers in history were completely satisfied with using "ordinary" power and speaker cables with their superlative equipment - why are we now becoming obsessed with all these "bells and whistles" cables - and spending many thousands of dollars for them?  Don't we need more hard "scientific" data explaining what actually makes these "fancy" cables sound "better"?  I personally, will stick by the recommendations of Mr. Smith and Mr. Sequerra!

@lissnr 

I have been using Triode Wire Labs cables for several years simply because they are the best sounding cables my system has ever known. They are exceptionally well made and Pete has always been a pleasure to deal with. Great sound and tremendous value, it is no surprise these cables are now being part of the finest systems assembled.

I use the same 10awg Western Electric wire that Pete uses for his American Series power cords and speaker cables.  The cost is nowhere near what many here pay for cords and I agree with you that the sound is good.  Some believe simple Romex makes a good power conductor based on its uniform geometry (although it would not meet electrical codes if used as a power cord from the wall outlet to the equipment iec).  

I am there for work every 8 weeks approximately, but no guarantees on a Friday. I am certainly in. I don't think it matters if me or Dimora is a believer or not, as long as you are. If you can pick your cables out blind (or between a basic shielded cable and yours) then you have proved they make a difference.

AtDavid and Dimora , Mi Casa es Su Casa for anything HiFi related. Its no trick of marketing , Im not smart enough for that. I’m sick of hearing this back and forth perpetual argument. I want to abolish it. I just offered anyone lets do this .. did you see how much interest there was in stopping the argument and getting to the bottom of it. ? Clearly nobody will come from overseas, that never crossed my mind. So you 2 are perfect, you guys dont know me and I will state for the record I dont think I know either of you, but based on moniker I dont know you guys.. So do either of you two have any $1000 plus power cords ? if so , we’ve got a shootout. If not, then you two are Audiogon forum users that can represent the AG Group for this thread. Keep in mind, I am a straight shooter. if something sounds better than my cable I will acknowledge it, furthermore if we become friends while you are here you must maintain an honest opinion even if you think Im a great guy and the other cable sounds better. Now if there is no $1K plus cable you can bring, then I need to know if you each are power cord believers or not, if you are , then come over any ways and we can listen to 3D Holographic imaging. Its a good reference point from which to judge other rigs, and its always fun for me to experience it in other peoples rigs because it is elusive. If you dont know what you think or better yet are a non believer that is OK with being converted to believer (if its truly heard) then come on over and Ill prove power cords work an a big way. There are some folks not willing to be converted , and that bias makes a closed mind, so its futile at that point. Every Friday is HiFi Fridays around here. I am in Smyrna by the new Battery Park if you google my username or just go to my username.com youll find my phone number to call and chat..

 I agree with you on the difference of power cords make on my system a few Kimber cables that cost between three and five hundred bucks I really don't want to spend more on it because I have this fear that you are dealing with the laws of diminishing returns very expensive power cords to me are not going to sound 10 times better than a three or four hundred dollar power cord

Where’s the Atlanta guy with the listening challenge? I’m game. I’ve got an all-mechanical A:B switchbox I built with identical headphone amps that can A:B a pair of Oppos with whatever cords you want to battle. Level match with 1KHz test tone and VOILA! I’ll prove that nobody can hear a difference (consistently) between properly gauged power cords.

My Opps is a stock BDP-103. All we need is a second one and we’ve got a test rig.

My buddy has a PHD in statistics; I’ll have him assist me to build a test matrix that is scientifically valid.

Who in Atlanta who thinks they can hear a difference is game to prove it?

I should add that it was the original Venom from a few years back.  It's been sitting around collecting dust because I was having a hard time finding a good spot for it.

During some recent interconnect and PC changes... I tried it on the Oppo. Yuck!!!

At this point it's gonna get Ebayed or traded in to the Cable Co towards another purchase.

@turnbowm

I can't anwer that specifically... but there was a definite change in frequency response.  Only way I can describe it, is that the highs went super airy to the point they were piercing... and the vocal range disappeared almost to the point of being inaudible.

Would it have gotten better if I left it in longer?  Don't know... I didn't wait to find out.

From what I gather it only likes cords for storks. 

mwoh419,

What about the Shunyata Venom PC doesn't the Oppo-105 like?

@dynaquest4 

"I have an OPPO-105 and I use the stork cord. I have never, not even once, thought it put out audio that was unlistenable."


Hook a 15 amp Shunyata Venom to it and wait a couple days.

Not saying the Venom is a bad cord... just that the Oppo won't like it.