Let me be clear here
I do not know Frank or any of the other posters here who have reported positive experiences.
I also do not know any of the posters who have had negative experiences either.
All I have ever tried to do on this thread and any "tweak" thread is report things as I hear them.
Thats it for me
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Mapman
I am pretty sure that was included due to having had similar experience on the previous SR fuse threads.
Not saying I condone that verbage but I do see where Frank was coming from.
Still there was never any intent imho to try to persuade others to buy fuses, sure with positive accolades you can expect that some will rush out to do so but one should ALWAYS do their own research and due diligence before parting with their money! |
This thread IMHO was about one thing and one thing only.
Reporting ones experience with said SR Blue fuses, nothing more at all. If you read the original post you’ll see that ’ naysayers, the Debbie Downers and Negative Nellie’s " were dissed from the start. Hardly the way to start an unbiased discussion. Just saying.... |
Prof
Obviously you have decided to take a leaf out of Georges book.
That is just quoting a small part of ones post to change the meaning entirely.
A pretty petty little parlour trick imho
Have fun..... |
^^^ mapman and others ... This thread was started by an enthusiast (me). The intent was NEVER to "sell fuses." The intent was only to share a positive experience with other like-minded enthusiasts. Actually, it started with the SR Red fuse thread and then advanced to this thread. Based upon the personal attacks and the negativism’s in the original Red fuse thread, I started this thread in an attempt to get away from the BS. In the opening post of this thread, I even asked for the Nellie Downers to either refrain from their negativism or to stay away ... to no avail. The same thing happened in the Total Contact thread. The few bad actors migrated over there and things really became heated. Why? Because the VERY FEW disgusting individuals were not only pulling things out of their misinformed and uninformed posteriors, but they were being totally destructive to the extent of promoting the failure of the product. - "It’s also hard for me to understand what kind of legitimate seller would even want this ugliness on display regarding their product but that is another story."
Mapman ... what makes you think any seller would want "this ugliness?" There’s nothing to wonder about ... they don’t. - "Anything that does not support that goal, is a threat and must be discredited. Often viciously."
Not by me, pal. I’ve always been cordial to those expressing a legitimate, opposite viewpoint. Its when THOSE FEW, most of whom, have disappeared to crap all over other threads, made a personal vendetta out of it, and/or were making an attempt to burn a small business to the ground. They are totally disgusting individuals, who most likely lead narrow, darkened little lives, and in an attempt to bolster their "manhood,," revel in bullying others . That’s about it ... Frank |
How about people just being excited about an audio product that actually provides the benefits it claims to, and wanting to share their experience with other enthusiasts? Nah, that can't be, there has to be some other darker hidden motive. Does everything have to be a conspiracy or a scam with you guys? |
uberwaltz, Personally I could not care less..... Can I just report my personal gratitude for your proper use of this phrase? :-) |
Wolf
I understand your arguments there for sure, however I wonder why some manufacturers have heard differences when going from a fuse to a circuit breaker and indeed from a circuit breaker to nothing in the ac path at all?
Not sure how that is explained away by the fuse just being a little piece of wire designed to melt?
Just postulating here, tbh I really have no idea why they work in my system for me, all I know is that they do.
And honestly, $150, in hifi terms it really is small change and when backed by a 30 day money back guarantee, I honestly do not think I am falling prey to " financial expectation bias" at all.
Just my thoughts....
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Mapman Rarely do I take umbrage at anything you state but on this I disagree. Obviously, to anyone who can read, this thread is about convincing others to buy the fuses. Anything that does not support that goal, is a threat and must be discredited.
I am sorry but the title of the thread and the positive posts from many have absolutely NOTHING to do with trying to persuade others to buy an aftermarket fuse whatsoever! In fact to read that into some of the posts shows you just cannot be reading them at all. Personally I could not care less if another living soul buys an aftermarket fuse or not! This thread IMHO was about one thing and one thing only. Reporting ones experience with said SR Blue fuses, nothing more at all. Nobody here is on the SR payroll, I believe what I hear whether others do or not and I tell it like I hear it, period. |
Though, I don’t see why that level of discourse is preferable to providing a careful argument for a position. Obviously, to anyone who can read, this thread is about convincing others to buy the fuses. Anything that does not support that goal, is a threat and must be discredited. Often viciously. Pretty simple. Hard to have legitimate discourse under those conditions. It’s also hard for me to understand what kind of legitimate seller would even want this ugliness on display regarding their product but that is another story. Some also may legitimately be offended that others are telling them they can’t hear what they claim to hear. But that message gets lost in the flood of hyperbole. |
Ok geoff,
If, when your objections are shown to be fallacious, you (and some others) prefer to fall back on complaining and name calling, so be it.
The blame, then, for crappy conversations about tweaks like these can hardly be put simply in the lap of the skeptics.
Though, I don't see why that level of discourse is preferable to providing a careful argument for a position.
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@prof - Whatever. Obviously nobody is going to be able to flip a died in the wool 🐑 pseudo skeptic. I gave up trying a long time ago. I just enjoy picking apart pseudo skeptics’ phoney baloney arguments. 🤡 Thanks for the nice game of whack a mole.
Blind tests are for sissies. No serious person uses them for anything in the high end, you know, where there are no hearing issues. Blinds tests are only used as some sort of threat by pseudo skeptics. “Betcha can’t pass a blind test!” Are you channeling The Amazing Randi? Give me a break!
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Uberwaltz…the components you describe were improved or tinkered with because they actually do have an impact on the way things work, engineers and designers know that…cable capacitance/resistance, ratings and formulas for caps and things, transformer design…all have a tonal role in the sound of gear. Fuses don't, and really, I doubt designers care about them beyond the ratings and placement…if they're not working properly things just shut off, or of they're poorly made they can blow when they shouldn't (trust me on that one). That's what they do and coating them with stuff, bombarding them with high voltage mojo inducing silliness, putting precious end caps on 'em…still…it's a tiny wire trying not to melt. That's it. All one can do is claim they do things to some utterly exaggerated degree because you paid through the nose for a $2 fuse, and you really need to feel that something's happening. It's a poor little fuse, or a Littelfuse, or it's blue…tiny wire, no tone controls or magic current massage…no nuthin' except hype by hard sell. |
clearthink, If you could reformulate what amounts to your "complaints" into an actual coherent argument against what I’ve actually argued here, then we could have a discussion. If you could actually point to anything I’ve written - not something you imagined I wrote but that I actually wrote - as untrue, or unreasonable, then your complaints may have some footing. But until then....you are just complaining when someone voices skepticism. boo-hoo. geoffkait, Look, professor, you can’t have it both ways. Either fuses make a difference and are audible or they’re not. Make up your mind. Again, you’ve confused yourself. The only way you could imagine I’m trying to "have it both ways" and can’t "make up my mind" is that you’ve confused a real dichotomy with a false dichotomy. Real dichotomy: Fuses make an audible difference or they do not. False Dichotomy: You have to either BELIEVE fuses make an audible difference or BELIEVE they do not. See the rather important difference there? Something may be true, or not true, but that OBVIOUSLY doesn’t entail you must accept one or the other, before having good reason you know which is true! If a new medical treatment for high blood pressure is proposed, well it’s either efficacious or it isn’t. But how does a rational people decide this? "Let’s take a vote! Who believes it works, who doesn’t? Ok, that’s 45 for the proposition it works, 20 for the proposition it doesn’t work. It’s settled then, our new blood pressure medicine works!" Of course not, right? You withhold your conclusion UNTIL the good evidence comes in. (Though, given your website, which until recently I thought was entirely a lark, I’m starting to infer maybe you don’t actually understand these basic principles?) Your argument is absurd. Humans easily distinguish types of car engines, types of aircraft engines, types of bird calls. Why not fuses. Is everyone lying? Another false dichotomy from you, geoff. If the sonic difference between fuses are not audible, the choice isn’t between people "lying" or "telling the truth." They can simply be "mistaken" and that is the variable some of us skeptics are raising. (And it’s amazing the resistance people here have to just considering they may actually...gasp!...be mistaken! And ironically it’s the skeptics that they imply are arrogant.) I wasn’t "lying" when I thought certain cables sounded completely and obviously different from others in my system. But my subsequent testing suggested I WAS mistaken. (When tested "blind" and I didn’t know which cable was being used, there were no such obvious differences allowing me to identify any difference). The sonic differences between cars, people’s voices, bird calls etc are large and understood to be well into the threshhold of audibility. And you can measure those differences. (In fact, just now I’m going through various jet sounds for a show I’m doing sound for, and the waveform output and frequency profiles are obviously different). But the claim of sonic differences between audiophile boutique fuses and regular (competently employed) fuses in a component is not so well established, and is in fact an area of controversy. And if the type of measurements pointed to earlier in the thread are the best we’ve got in support of the claim, then they still leave plenty of room for doubt (the inadequacies have already been pointed out, and they amount to the fact that even the attempts of the author to explain their effects were highly speculative, and did not even demonstrate the *audible* difference in either case). And then if all we have beyond that are audiophiles saying "I heard a difference" then, as I say, this doesn’t rise above the level of "evidence" discerning from perceptual error/bias effects, that plague so many other tweak-claims. Are 70,000 people under hypnosis? Are a hundred million people believing the claims of homeopathy under hypnosis? ^^^^ Please recognize the reductio ad absurdum this time, geoff ;) That is, presuming you understand homeopathy is bunk....which I admit it may not be so wise to presume...;-) Geoff, do you really not understand at all why there is the scientific method in the first place? If researchers want to get confirmation (strong evidential support) that a medical treatment is efficacious - whether it’s homeopathy, or an allergy treatment or whatever - do you think they just give it to people and ask "Well? You’ve received treatment for your problem, how do you feel?" No. They set up blind and double blind studies, control groups on placebos, etc. Do you know why they do this? Why simply taking the subjective report of people, without reducing the variables of our well documented forms of bias....isn't a good method? And do you not know our perceptual biases extend everywhere, including to audio? Do you know why, for instance, when you go for a hearing test it’s a blind test? (You aren’t given any other visual cue as to when a tone is being played)? And...again...yet again!...do you understand that none of the cautions I raise in support of my skepticism amounts to my claiming fuses "don’t make a difference?" Is nuance that hard to grasp? |
Argumentum ad populum Is that the same as stercus quod est onus Domini? |
geoffkait"Look, professor, you can’t have it both ways. Either fuses make a difference and are audible or they’re not. Make up your mind."
They will not make up they're minds because then they would have to actually defend they're ideas opinions and positions which would be more difficult and challenging then just coming here and stirring the pot to further argumentation among particpants! |
Look, professor, you can’t have it both ways. Either fuses make a difference and are audible or they’re not. Make up your mind. Stop sitting on the fence. Hearing is a human sensory perception - that’s how we observe our audible surroundings. That’s how we distinguish various levels of audio performance, by listening. Humans easily distinguish types of car engines, types of aircraft engines, types of bird calls. Why not fuses. Is everyone lying? Are 70,000 people under hypnosis. Seems rather unlikely. What does seem likely is that your a pseudo skeptic who is grasping at straws. What we have is 70,000 happy campers and several stubborn pseudo skeptics who don’t know when it’s time to wake up and smell the coffee. ☕️
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prof"And, anyone paying attention will note: Nothing in my reply argued that fuses DO NOT make a sonic difference. Only that the type of arguments and evidence on offer are of dubious quality." If you're intention hear is to expose the "dubious quality" of the "arguments and evidence" hear then you would be well advised to continue you're studies with a particular emphasis on logic which although you seem to be able to paste in some details of from Wikipedia or where ever you obviously do not understand you are stuck in a mode of simply attacking criticizing and faulting without on your part offering any meaningful significant or reasoned response other than "I don't like what he says so I'll just keep arguing with him." |
geoffkait, Please brush up on your understanding of fallacies. You’ve completely misunderstood what should have been the obvious point. No my post was not a personal attack at all, and does not even imply oregonpapa believes any of those other things. In fact, if anything it relies on the opposite: that he or others here will recognize other dubious beliefs as fallacious (like homeopathy). oregonpapa’s post obviously implied, against the skepticism of a few here, that the a far larger number of people - tens of thousands! - have bought fuses believing they make a difference. Insofar as that is meant to imply the truth of the disputed claim "fuses make a sonic difference," it’s a fallacious argument. It’s been recognized as a fallacy for a looooong time and it’s called: Argumentum ad populumhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populumAnd I rightly replied to this fallacy with a type of reductio ad absurdum: Taking the same logic ("so many people believe it, it must be true") and showing the same appeal large groups of believers can support an absurdity ("look how many customers believe homeopathy works, homeopathy must be true"). So, since this for of appeal doesn’t help distinguish the truth of the matter, it’s a poor form of rebuttal. Hope that clears things up for you ;-) And, anyone paying attention will note: Nothing in my reply argued that fuses DO NOT make a sonic difference. Only that the type of arguments and evidence on offer are of dubious quality. |
profs"And homeopaths will point out that millions around the world - 100 million in India alone! - have been sold homeopathic medicine. All those people can't be wrong can they?"
Of course none of that has anything to do with the topics under discussion here at all it is another logical fallacy which this group abounds with and they are furthered by those unwilling or unable to actually experiment with some of the devices methods and protocols that are discussed hear and the best that many of these people can do is say "well be honest with your self and test it" when in fact we are testing it that is the problem that people like "profs" don't bother to do they're homework before coming here and then argue they're nonsense with those who actually have real first hand practical experience! |
And the "Awesome Foursome" sincerely welcome the return of Captain Caveman! |
prof
“And in the meantime, tens of thousands of SR fuses have been sold to satisfied customers.”
And homeopaths will point out that millions around the world - 100 million in India alone! - have been sold homeopathic medicine.
All those people can’t be wrong can they? Diluting a substance until there is literally none of it left except it’s magic powers MUST be true!
>>>>That’s highly illogical, Captain. It’s an Appeal to ridicule. That’s like saying people who believe in wire directionality probably believe in UFOs. It’s a personal attack AND a logical fallacy. Two mints in one!
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George, Wolf and company are like the guys who joined a recovery group for delusional thinking disorders--confessing to each other they used to go on this site and mock hundreds of other guys, lecturing them they could not possibly be hearing what they are hearing when the recovery group had never even tried to hear what they claim the others are not hearing.
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the know-it-alls here are like the drunk who enters the freeway via the exit ramp and then curses all the idiots going the wrong way.
Or a bit like the idiot who tries an ac mains fuse in different directions expecting to hear a difference, when he knows AC is alternating current that swaps itself 60 x a second. Cheers George |
Or how about, "Of course we're right--all six of us." Compared to the hundreds who endorse SR fuses, the know-it-alls here are like the drunk who enters the freeway via the exit ramp and then curses all the idiots going the wrong way. |
And in the meantime, tens of thousands of SR fuses have been sold to satisfied customers. And homeopaths will point out that millions around the world - 100 million in India alone! - have been sold homeopathic medicine. All those people can't be wrong can they? Diluting a substance until there is literally none of it left except it's magic powers MUST be true! ;-) |
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^^^
And in the meantime, tens of thousands of SR fuses have been sold to satisfied customers.
Carry on lads ...
Frank |
Wolf
Glad you are not totally ignoring me..lol
However you did miss the majority my point I believe
What I meant was why on earth did the first person decide to modify caps or power cords when they were doing the job they were designed to do obviously quite successfully?
That is what I meant, fuses are just another item in a long line of "what happens if?"
People are people and will meddle, does not matter in the slightest just what said item was designed "only" to do at all.
BTW you can debate the origin/meaning of my "handle" all you like, my skin is very thick......
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wolf_garcia
Uberwaltz (is that an existential dancing pun?)...I noticed a post you made that I may have initially missed, so I’ll respond to it now. All components do not "fall into the same category" as you claim as, for example, fuses are not intended to "do" anything but allow current to run through them and then, if necessary, melt...or not melt. Any tonal impact on components upstream is severly compromised by the tiny wire used to make these things work, and you simply can’t hyperbole your way around that. Try as people may....Cables, caps, resistors, transformers, internal wiring, component feet, etc., all generally have clearly stated design goals (Magic Fuses, regardless of how many times you might ask why they work, apparantly do not have design goals, other than as business income generators), and attention is paid by designers and engineers to their individual or cumulative properties of resistance, capacitance, mojo, appearance, smell, and tonal impact on any piece of gear they’re stuck in. Fuses, not so much. In fact, not at all. They’re fuses...and if people pay 75 times the cost of something for which a 2 dollar version performs exactly as it should in countless well designed products, I say a successful, albeit ethically questionable, feat of salesmanship has utterly succeeded. Congratulations to all who continue to passionately participate in celebrating the Oil of the Snake, and to those who haven’t bought into this nonsense, congratulations to you too.
>>>>File under Whatever.
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Uberwaltz (is that an existential dancing pun?)...I noticed a post you made that I may have initially missed, so I'll respond to it now. All components do not "fall into the same category" as you claim as, for example, fuses are not intended to "do" anything but allow current to run through them and then, if necessary, melt...or not melt. Any tonal impact on components upstream is severly compromised by the tiny wire used to make these things work, and you simply can't hyperbole your way around that. Try as people may....Cables, caps, resistors, transformers, internal wiring, component feet, etc., all generally have clearly stated design goals (Magic Fuses, regardless of how many times you might ask why they work, apparantly do not have design goals, other than as business income generators), and attention is paid by designers and engineers to their individual or cumulative properties of resistance, capacitance, mojo, appearance, smell, and tonal impact on any piece of gear they're stuck in. Fuses, not so much. In fact, not at all. They're fuses...and if people pay 75 times the cost of something for which a 2 dollar version performs exactly as it should in countless well designed products, I say a successful, albeit ethically questionable, feat of salesmanship has utterly succeeded. Congratulations to all who continue to passionately participate in celebrating the Oil of the Snake, and to those who haven't bought into this nonsense, congratulations to you too.
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mitch2
@geoffkait
"Whatever."
Wait....stop the presses....what is this oh man of few words today, acquiescence, tapout, hang-over? Have a Bloody Mary and check back in...
>>>>>Whatever.
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What’s their racket? Shaking down Girl Scouts? |
The Amish mafia will not be pleased with your comments.
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You know, Moops, growing up in an Amish neighborhood is not necessarily good for debating skills or for overall mental aptitude. Have you given any consideration to maybe going back and finishing high school? Oh, I almost forgot. You’re an “engineer.” That can be our little secret. 🤫
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Directionality is a big word for a yapdog gk. Congratulations. Do you know any others? That act is very stale. Also not very good to start even. Can you say One Trick Pony? How about nobody cares? You need a new act bad. Boring! More like a parrot than a yapdog even. When you figure out the right direction how about going there and no need to reverse and come back. Learn a new trick maybe then we can talk. |
🐩
mapman
Don’t worry Mitch he’ll be yapping about directionality of things that only he understands and nobody cares about again in no time. It’s his imaginary great contribution to the mystery world of high end audio.
>>>I keep telling you, the dog reference is already taken, Poodleman. Woof, woof! Speaking of irony, all this discussion about wire directionality on multiple threads for like forever and you STILL don’t even know what directionality is. Some people are unable to learn new things, no biggie. It’s no skin off my nose. Maybe you just don’t want to admit you’re wrong in front of all the other pseudo skeptics, who knows? Remember you have two ears and one mouth for a reason.
also, remember you’re practically the only one in the world who cannot hear a fuse. Have you tried candling your ears? Is the whole world crazy except for you? 😬 |
"You can’t "define your audience" on a public forum and/or "disqualify" anybody from commenting simply because you want to. That’s (obviously) not how it works. Actual scholarly etiquette (if that’s an actual thing) would seem to welcome all comments." Wolf Garcia
For the Prof, or any scholar, the OP’s introduction to his thread, although informal, is his abstract and his thesis statement. He summarizes his findings, defines his audience and narrows the scope of his topic to inform the reader what to expect. The OP went to some length there so others would not waste their time or be drawn into the subject without a clear benefit to their academic interests.
I am taking a harder line with the Prof, who would understand the discipline of appropriate response. The rest of you ridiculing doubters seek to close down this thread by citing the eventual degradation of discourse, made by YOU, as good reason to shut it down. You ARE the straw men.
Now, let’s lighten up and get over ourselves.
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Don't worry Mitch he'll be yapping about directionality of things that only he understands and nobody cares about again in no time. It's his imaginary great contribution to the mystery world of high end audio.
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@geoffkait "Whatever." Wait....stop the presses....what is this oh man of few words today, acquiescence,
tapout, hang-over? Have a Bloody Mary and check back in... |
🐑
wolf_garcia
“Another thing to consider is the fact that no reasonable explanation has ever been proffered up as to exactly why the fuses were designed to deal with an issue which likely never existed. Fuses are limited in their design by the fact that they must contain a small wire that will melt on cue to be effective…special end caps might help the basic connection in the fuse holder, the wire could have some proprietary component, something, anything, but are they designed to be tone altering devices? Why or how they work remains a mystery, and I'm pretty sure they're simply designed and promoted to generate money garnered from gullible fans hoping that they too can enjoy the magic tone improvements available from something so small, albeit with Quantum Tunneling involved. The overwhelming support from sincere believers, "Marge, come quick, the cellos are cleaner!", illustrates the fact that people simply need validation from others so they don't feel like knuckleheads from spending 150 bucks on a 2 dollar fuse. Enter hyperbole, the salesman's best friend.”
Whatever. |
jafreeman
Prof, skepticism has its place, but if you read the OP's introduction to this thread, he defines his audience as those who are trying the SR Blue fuses. He asks them to post their findings, he does not require a burden of proof. He also asks the doubters and downers to refrain. This is simply a matter of academic discipline: You have not tried the SR Blue and are therefore disqualified from commenting, as are George, Wolf, Mapman et al. Scholarly etiquette invites you to leave and start a skeptic's thread on the downfall of the gullible tweakophile.
>>>>Well, somebody tried the SR fuse and failed. Was it Wolfman? Mapman? Both of them? I assume they feel obligued to say they’re right and everyone else, all 20,000 of them, must be wrong.
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wolf
Not sure if I upset you someway in an earlier life but I have noticed at least 3 or 4 times on this thread I have made what I consider to be a rational detailed response to some of your posts and yet you just blithely ignore them .
And that is fine if it is deemed personal for some reason or if you think my direct relies to you are not even worth considering.
Just curious you could say |
jafreeman,
Excellent point! Most forum members understand common courtesy & decency and will take the OPs requests into consideration before posting. Unfortunately, some think the fact that it is an open public forum makes throwing courtesy & decency out the window perfectly acceptable.
It's not just “Forum rules allow me to post on any thread I want!”, it's asking yourself “Should I post on this particular thread?” |
You can't "define your audience" on a public forum and/or "disqualify" anybody from commenting simply because you want to. That's (obviously) not how it works. Actual scholarly etiquette (if that's an actual thing) would seem to welcome all comments. I think it's interesting that people think they hear things from inexplicable magic fuses and are willing to pay 150 bucks for them, and I'll comment all I want. |
Prof, skepticism has its place, but if you read the OP's introduction to this thread, he defines his audience as those who are trying the SR Blue fuses. He asks them to post their findings, he does not require a burden of proof. He also asks the doubters and downers to refrain. This is simply a matter of academic discipline: You have not tried the SR Blue and are therefore disqualified from commenting, as are George, Wolf, Mapman et al. Scholarly etiquette invites you to leave and start a skeptic's thread on the downfall of the gullible tweakophile.
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geoffkait sez ... - "Bingo! That’s the definition of a pseudo skeptic. The next best thing to the real thing. Pseudo skeptics are always trying to prove that they’re not gullible, that they cannot be hornswoggled. They’re also called Barcalounger Skeptics. A real skeptic is actually curious and will go to great lengths to get to the bottom of things."
They also fall under a very specific personality type with their own specific dominate fear. While the engineer’s specific dominate fear is the fear of criticism, the personality type you described above, Geoff, fears above all else, being taken advantage of. Makes perfect sense, no? Frank |
I’m going to help you out, Moops. The irony is that it’s your hearing that’s unreliable, not anyone else’s. All the other 20,000 heard it. It’s not their hearing that’s unreliable. You’re practically the only one anyone’s ever heard of who couldn’t hear it. It’s your hearing that’s unreliable. Hel-loo! You’re welcome in advance.
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I see no irony. The fuses have just the right marketing team that they deserve. |
jafreeman,
It's clear you are driven to see a skeptic as some sort of villain, so honest, nuanced dialogue is not really going to be possible.
It's a funny thing, this hobby.
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