Phd.....LOL
208 responses Add your response
I very much like the entry level Naim Nait 5i2 integrated. It does not have an active preamp stage. But as an integrated it can certainly "control the cable". That raises the question as what the advantage is of having an active preamp stage in an integrated amp. And, as an extension, would it be desirable to have a high end amp with its own integrated passive preamp stage? That would certainly put the need to "control the cable" in one manufacturers hand and let it happen internally. That would take the passive preamp out of the source component as people are trying to do with their DACs today and put it into the amp. That begs the question as to whether it is desirable to have the greatest synergy and the ability to "control the cable" between the source and the passive pre or between the passive pre and the amp. No answers here. Just thinking out loud. |
@ KngHiFi, Hi, Thanks, this is good to hear some success of useing tube preamps with some of the krell amps, I did have a bad exsperience once useing a tube source direct to amp, the source, as it turned out was emitting DC into the amp, thus throwing the amp into stand-by mode, I tested the source with a volt meter, yes, there the Dc was!, I am just tring to be careful here to not damage the amp in any kind of way, I also wanted you to know, I am a big fan of useing solid state amps with tube sources or preamps, I enjoy the tube magic, brings some musicality to my ears, instead of a two dimensional over resolving sound that I find strange that alot of people like, I do understand we all have our own preferances. |
@Audiolabyrinth, here is a link to Atma-Sphere's MP-1 webpage. You can see that he uses 6SN7's and 12AT7's by clicking on the 'Specifications' tab. |
@ Jmcgrogan2, Hi, I have been to the Atmasphere site and looked at the m-1 two box preamp, It does not reveal the tube compliment or how many tubes that I could see, nor does the site tell me if the tubes are in a buffer stage or the out-put stage, maybe Ralph or Almarg could help with this set of questions? |
@ jmcgrogan2, Hi, opps, I see the tube compliment now, still need the other questions answered, wow!, thats alot of tubes!, 18 tubes!, I do not believe I have seen this many in a preamp before, hey, is this the tube 6sn7's you and pops rave about, of being the big sound of tubes? and, are the 12at7 tubes similair to the 12au7 and 12ax7 tubes that I do like?,thanks john. |
@ charles1dad, Hi, Did you see how many tubes the m-1 has?, If its as clear sounding as it is made out to be, I would not want to go thru the exspense of tube rolling all those tubes, LOL!, for what reason would I do that if the preamp has the spookey clarity its claimed to have?, dude, thats a boat load of funds to tube roll this baby to the quality tubes of my choice if it was needed?, I had a tube source componet that was an ayon one time, and the tube choice that I wanted was $1,200.00 for 4 tubes!, LOL!, No, I did not get the tubes, but you get the point? |
Ok, I see if I wanted a m-1 preamp with phono, The preamp has 18 tubes,the 12at7 tubes are for the phono,, and yes, Jmcgrogan2, the 6sn7 tubes are the ones you and pops claim to be the fat big sound of tubes!, without the phono in the preamp, I get 10 of the 6sn7 tubes, If I auditioned this preamp and liked it, bought it, etc.., I suppose I would have a similair tube sound that the both of you have with the preamps the two of you own. since I do not own not one record, or a turntable, even thou I love analog vinyl, that scenero would be stratisphere exspensive to achieve that set-up, cables, etc...I would only have a turntable that would match the quality of the preamp as well too!, man-o-man that would be exspensive, the line stage would be it for me, sorry john, I need a lottery hit to do this phono thing, LOl! |
A friend has this preamp and the MA-1 amplifier. I've also placed my SET amp in this system and with either amplifier it was clear this is an excellent component. Many good attributes, transparency, minimal coloration, open with exceptional dynamic energy and quite natural sound ( most important to me). Obviously you can learn more from Ralph than me. Charles, |
I haven't read all the responses but so far, preamp seem to be holding their own. I for one will always use a preamp. A tube preamp. Regardless of the amplifier being used, I think a preamp will not only provide better sonics but also serve other purposes as well. It is true most digital gear has the 'drive' to eliminate a preamp but to me, I have yet to hear any source direct system that sounds as good as a preamp driven system. Almost everyone I know, whether in the business or just consumers, still run preamps in their system even if only a digital or server based front end. A good digital front end, DAC and tube preamp appears to be staying around for the foreseeable future. I have been in this industry for almost twenty years and designing tube gear for 15 years so I have been exposed to countless system combinations. Preamps, tube or SS, will be around for a long time. |
@ charles1dad, Thanks for your response, Hey, Did you hear tube magic when you listened to the m-1?, I ask this because, I have had 6h30 tubes before, LOL!, sounded to much like solid state than tube magic compaired to the 12au7 and 12ax7 tubes!, I like a little tubey sound, If a tube componet is so nuetral, whats the since in having the tube componet?, I would do solid state then. |
What is your definition of tube magic? Some people like myself prefer transparency and neutrality, I like the sound to be as close to the source as possible. Most of the magic is in the recording itself. The job of the system is to reproduce the recorded sound as faithfully as possible. Atma-Sphere products are among the most transparent I have heard. Yet unlike many solid state components, they render a very life like presentation which I believe has always been a big advantage well designed tube circuits enjoy over solid state. They also expose bad recordings, but that is a trade off I will take any day. If by using the term "tubey" you mean warmth and coloration then Atma-Sphere products might not be for you. It might be more to your benefit to seek out older Cary preamps like an SLP-98 or older Conrad Johnson preamps. These will provide a warm and somewhat syrupy sound that some people prefer. However, based on my experience they just sound warm and fat in comparison to highly transparent tube components. If you have the opportunity audition both types of preamps and hear the difference for yourself. Disclaimer: I have been a very satisfied Atma-Sphere customer and am now an Atma-Sphere dealer. |
Audiolabyrinth, LOL! If you're considering a tube pre in this price range, also checkout VAC SigMKIIa. LOL! It's only takes 2 e88cc/6922/7308 so easy to roll, very sensitive to tube rolling so you can dial in the sound you desire LOL! LOL!, it can drive any amp you will ever consider LOL! and it sounds excellent! LOL! LOL! LOL! There's also a pair of 12au7s that's only for tape and SHOULD NOT effect line stage according to Kevin but it does to my ears. LOL! LOL! So you might or might not have to roll the 12au7s. LOL! |
Active preamp or bust! It is key to a well put together system!Right on brother. I have had 6h30 tubes before, LOL!, sounded to much like solid stateMany people say that about the 6H30 tube. [quote]If by using the term "tubey" you mean warmth and coloration then Atma-Sphere products might not be for you. I've never had the Atma pre-amps in my system, but thge M-60s were remarkable for thsir speed and transparency. I wish I never sold them. |
Audiolabyrnith, I am not certain what you imply by "tube magic" what attracts me to tube component is their musical honestly and thus a more natural and realistic sound. There are some tube components that seem to add a false warmth coloration and those types have never interested me. I don't care for most SS components as they tend to wash out the natural tone, body, bloom and vibrancy that exists in live music. The Atma-Sphere preamp along with the top echelon tube units just gets closer to the truth with less editorializing. I don't know if this applies to you or not,but what many peopl here refer to as "neutral" SS sound is sterile, lifeless and artificial to me. YMMV is understood. Charles, |
Charles- I do have a Vac Ren 30/30 now (as well as a couple of others). I sold the M-60s for I know not what reason and since I have more than 1 amp here, I do believe that I should have kept them as well as my VAC. The VAC needs a repair now, it has a hummmmm that I cannot get rid of, which was not there before it slipped when I was trying to replace it in my rack, and a lot of weight landed on the feedback selector. The Vac is going to have to go into the shop and I have a pair of Coincident MP300bs coming to try out w a pair of one-off OB speakers w Feastrex field coil single drivers (w powered subs) that are also on their way here. |
@ charles1dad, you are the man!, you hit the nail on the head when no one else could, when I said tube magic!, Tone, bloom,and 3- dimensionality is what I am emphasising here!, It is difficult to express what I am saying gentleman, I am sorry, bear with me, How would all of you here compair purity audio preamps to atmas-phere preamps?, I have a problem with 32 volts out-put, although Ralph has gain controls outside of the signal, I want to know if that is a control to the output volts, My amp is fully driven at 3.58 volts!, clipping is 18 volts, an explosion!, I am reffering to the m-1 preamp. merry christmas to all of you! |
12-24-13: AudiolabyrinthThe 32 volt number could be 1000 volts and you still wouldn't have a problem. That is the highest voltage the preamp is CAPABLE of putting out, which as Ralph and I both indicated several times earlier in the thread should be (and usually is, for most high quality preamps) MUCH greater than the highest voltage it would ever be required to put out in normal use. The M-1 is spec'd as providing 14 db of gain, for line-level (non-phono) inputs. Which means that with the volume control turned all the way up the output voltage will be 5.01 times greater than whatever voltage is provided to it by a line-level source, at any given moment. Turning down the volume control would reduce that level as necessary. Also, once again, clipping is not 18 volts. Perhaps that number just applies to the input circuit of the amp, or perhaps the person who provided that number is confused. But since the output of the amp is spec'd as being able to provide a maximum of 84 volts rms, and the gain of the amp is spec'd at 26.4 db, per a calculation I provided earlier in the thread (on 12-13-13) the output of the amp will clip when the input voltage exceeds approximately 4.02 volts. Regards, -- Al |
Audiolabyrinth, There are certainly very worthy contenders in the realm of premium level tube preamplifiers. I won't attempt any effort to rank them or declare a"best", just too many variables ( system, personal taste) are involved. I can give you a starting point "short list" of some that have gotten repeated universal praise on the forums by happy owners. Alphabetically, 1, Atma-Sphere MP-1 2, Coincident Statement Line stage 3, TRL DUDE ( with Duelund CAST caps ) 4, VAC Signature MK II Believe there are more, I metioned these as Ive heard all four (own the Coincident) and could recommend them without hesitation. Each one will have their own enthusiastic advocates touting their many virtues. Another thing, these four are by High End standards reasonably affordable new or used. A good friend has the Absolare Passion Signature line stage that I've heard many times and is truly superb. But it's ultra expensive and would compete with the Robert Koda or Lamm Reference cost wise. Take your time, there are excellent choices available for tube preamps. Charles, |
Will do, Charles and Iso. I'm very interested in hearing what OB speakers sound like at home; I heard a pair of GRs at RMAF in 2011 and was very impressed w how dynamic and coherent they were, so I'm excited to give these a whirl. The amps that are on the way are the older parallel SE 300bs. Unfortunately, I cannot afford new Franks and they have not yet appeared on the used market. |
@ Charles1dad, Thankyou for your reply, I will take my time with the quest for a preamp, Hey, The only way to know what really sounds good these days is ask, I hope I did not frustrate nobody here, I do not trust pro reviews no more!, I find user word of mouth to give me the interest in a product, I understand there is different tast out there in what is good or not, and understand system dependency,instead of years of heart ache of tring this and that, I trust the audiogon community to give me a narrowed down foundation to start the quest, My system will take a long time to build, I started 4-2012, going on my 4th source as it is, It seems nothing is as it was made out to be after relying on pro reviews!, I am the type of audiophile that once I get this system done, and I'm satiesfied, I want to ride off into the sunset this time!, I care less whats better tomorrow, To me, A very good sound will never be absolete! |
It's never a bad idea to take anyone's opinion with a gain of salt. Swamp walker will soon be able to hear and form his own impression. Over the years I've found Savatore's opinions to be strikingly on the mark regardless of the brand he's evaluating. It seems we hear things in a similar manner. Charles, |
Charles, your last comment is exactly what I was thinking. Many of us who have had the pleasure of sampling Blume's work have found it to be exceptionally true to music. Savatore would seem to be in that camp. I would tend to take Savatore's recommendations on equipment seriously, because "it seems we hear things in a similar manner." For the same reason, I take Jonathan Valin's reviews seriously. We are both Magnepan guys. We hear things the same way. And for what it is worth, my preamp's days are not numbered. It's not going anywhere. Now, in a second system or a low budget system, I would certainly think about trying either an integrated amp or a digital volume control, since I am likely to remain a single source guy. |
Yes Brownsfan: Arthur Salvator's "Bolero Test" (linked) is most enlightening to the need of active preamps. If you like the sound of your system without the colourations of a active preamp involved using this test, then don't use it use a passive preamp. As this test gives exactly what the source is giving to your poweramp/s nothing added nothing removed. BTW you can do it with other cd's that start of low in volume. http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Linestages.html#BOLERO Cheers George |
In short do the "Bolero Test" with your source directly connected to the poweramp. And go with Arthur Salvatore's 2 closing statements: 1/ "In short, if you need an active line stage because your source is not up to the task of driving the amplifier(s), then... Any good active line stage, from any era, will improve the sonics in some obvious and clear manner" 2/ "Alternatively, if your source is up to the task of driving your amp(s), then... No active line stage, no matter how good it is, will ever equal the sonics of your direct connection (or an equivalent passive)" Cheers George |
@ Georgelofi, Hi, I have never used passive preamp produts, so I cannot comment on them, However, I have never heard a active preamp to better a high quality,top sounding source direct connected to a amplifier!, I also agree, If the source can drive the amp to full out-put., there is very few sources that you can match the out-put to the in-put of the amp, an example of what I am saying is this, My amp is 3.58 volts to drive to potentual power, volume to the speakers, A source that out-puts 2.5 volts sounds great, But will not drive the amp to full power, Then on the flip side of useing a preamp, The statement Almarg said quote- "The 32 volts could be 1000 volts and you still would not have a problem". Yes I would!, I do not want a volume control to fully drive my amp on a clock value starting at 6am going to 3pm being the preamps full out-put, and making my amp fully driven at 8am!!!, That is not what I want to do!, I understand the concept of not putting the preamp in a bind for better sound quality, I once had a source back in 1997 that was direct to amp, the out-put volts was 3 volts, Then I had a Krell FPB 200, The in-put sensativity was 2.97,, This was perfect for me, then to top that off, I had some horn speakers that did 101 sensativity, man-o-man was that a great sound, that system was stolen from me by ex-wife when I was out of town!, I told you this because, I fully agree with the #2 statement you provided in your last post!, I also cannot get over the fact that the signal goes thru another circuit board before it gets to the amp!, It's funny how so many preamp makers are doing shortest path available for the signal inside their preamps,LOL!, mmmm, I wonder why?., regardless, I am willing to go and hear what the best available preamps can do these days, I traveled half the u.s.a. before in the late 90s giving seminairs on resonance control tunning and listening to all under the sun cost no object everything!, Preamps have never impressed me, now that so much time has gone by, I will see if they can match source direct connected to amps. cheers George. |
Arthur is a man with opinions like all of us. It is strange all of the products he says are the best of the best are Coincident. Is this just a coincidence for Coincident? Highly unlikely in all honesty folks. At the minimum, it simply reflects his sole experience and preferences. At minimum. He likes a particular sound from his system as we all do. No right or wrong, just preference. One is not truer to the music then the another as all systems are not true in some way. A preamp less system is still a sound system producing sound from a series of wires, components, parts etc...with a resulting sound. The END result is still compilation of the total system. Arthur may like it without a preamp and I like it with a preamp. No ultimate right or truer system, just opinion and preference. I have done the Bolero test numerous times and owned the LSA twice and borrowed it a third time. I have owned the Placette, gone direct with great DAC's, direct from amps and scaled the mountains of passive and direct options. In the end, music sounded more like music with my best in class tube preamp. No, my music is not more more distorted, less resolving, tone controlled, etc...it merely sounds more like music does and should to me, based on my experiences with music and my preferences. If a passive, or direct from DAC or amp does this for you, then that is wonderful. It does not mean anything more than that however. No far reaching general conclusion about the state and result of music systems for all of humanity. That conclusion is leaping well beyond the scope of what is reasonable and true. |
I agree with Salvatore's two conclusions. We all know the final choice will depend on the specific component under consideration, system compatibility and actually "listening". People who trust their ears will choose which of the two options suit them best, as Salvatore obviously concedes. Try both and the decision won't be difficult once heard, it will be one or the other that ultimately involves you more with your music (you'll know). Charles, |
Grannyring, That was probably the most logically expressed post on this often repeated topic as I've ever read. You sum it up accurately as well as beautifully. Folks, go with what sounds best to you. I didn't know you had experienced the Light speed on three separate occasions. You certainty believe in thorough scrutiny and a fair shake. Charles, |
Arthur is a man with opinions like all of us. It is strange all of the products he says are the best of the best are Coincident. Is this just a coincidence for Coincident? Highly unlikely in all honesty folks. At the minimum, it simply reflects his sole experience and preferences. At minimum.With the WWW, anybody can be a professional reviewer so caveat emptor. People will naturally gravitate to reviewers that prefer their products for purchase decision reinforcement and info. |
Almarg said quote- "The 32 volts could be 1000 volts and you still would not have a problem". Yes I would!, I do not want a volume control to fully drive my amp on a clock value starting at 6am going to 3pm being the preamps full out-put, and making my amp fully driven at 8am!!!, That is not what I want to do! Audiolabyrinth, it sounds from this post that you do not understand the difference between output capability and gain. The two are different. In this case, the MP-1 can make about 32 volts. But it needs a lot of input to do that, as it does not have all that much gain and no source I can think of has that sort of output. Normally, it would be making much much less than that, not even a volt most of the time (signal and volume control dependent). So output level is what it can achieve, gain is how much signal it will need to get there. A lot of gain, not much signal, not much gain and it will need a lot of input. In your case, it would work out great as your amps have low gain also. Essentially, it would be impossible to cause the preamp to distort on your system. In fact its distortion would be so low that it would be very difficult to measure. Its that latter aspect which is why you want the high output ability- the more it has, the less distortion it is going to make when driving an amplifier. |
