The Future of Audio Amplification
So funny and incorrect. All class D modules produced by the major companies 10 years ago are still available. Example: Here is the module that was sold in 2007 being sold now through Parts Express.... https://www.parts-express.com/icepower-1000asp-class-d-audio-amplifier-with-power-supply-module-1-x-... But why would you want to replace your module on your 10 year old $2000 amp when you can buy a brand new better sounding stereo amp for a little over $1000 delivered? There are guys buying super expensive class A amps right now that will be turning them around to get the latest new one in a year or so and lose $10,000 or more in the process. Some of the best sounding newest class D amps are so good and so cheap that you could just throw them away (or sell or give to your kids or use in secondary system, etc.) in a few years when a better one comes out. Never heard anyone cursing their inexpensive class D amp when it is no longer the latest thing. I think the rich guys do more cursing and also more straining.....lifting those beast of amps! I read a lot of reviews of the latest class a and a/b amps and it looks like the latest ones (and also getting more expensive every year as well) are really way better than those old amps that are 10 years old. All classes of amps are way better today than ever. Lets all sing along: "Who wants yesterdays papers?.....Who wants yesterdays amps?....nobody in the world" There are many class D amps out there.....some sound eh....some sound middling, some sound very good and some sound really great. Just like anything, you need to do your research and buy from someone who gives a trial period......but the same is true with any class of amp. |
Nobody will be calling any class D amp "legendary" 10 years after it was sold. They’ll all be in landfills.Correct, not only do they sound questionable to many, but owners will be cursing the day they purchased them. As replacement boards will not only be obsolete, but very expensive if NOS in stock. As no one will be able to fix them down to component level economically, 4 layer pcb, double sided componentry, and all smd! all squashed into the size of a pack of cards, good luck !!! Cheers George |
| Post removed |
Most people have no idea how instruments and voices sounds in real. That is why there are so many different amps for sale. Over 99% of all poweramps sound a lot different than instruments and voices in real. The insight and knowledge in music and realims in sound is even by most people who work in audio very limited. This makes it for many brands possible to sell their products. The biggest problem in audio is that most audio products and for amps counts the same are not able to create a good level in diversity (layering) in sound. Almost all amps are also 2-dimensional. I auditoned many class D amps. They are getting better. But there is not even one I would sell to one of my clients. In my world at this moment it is unacceptable. Maybe in the future it can change, who knows. Most people who work in audio does not even know all the aspects/properties of sound. They judge by trial and error. What is just pure audiogambling. Based on the fact that trial and error lacks any kind of foundation on which you make your decisions. In 2017 and in this year I spoke with many distributers and manufacturers and they all agreed that trail and error has no real foundation. You never can extract the full dna of each individual part in an audiosystem. This is a 100% fact. But this is needed to understand why the sound and stage is what you hear. |
There is one amp what is now number one on my list. I always judge audio products on the DNA of each individual product. I judge audio by Tru-Fi. This means it needs to be able to reveal all the aspects/properties of sound. And it needs to do each individual aspect/property at the highest level possible. I decided not to talk about brands anymore cause often people overhere feel so offended about it. Many highend brands are now owned by investment companies. And they are only interested in one thing.......MONEY. Several brands people mentioned in this thread are owned by investment companies as well these days. I have a lot of contact with the owner of the biggest technical support company in my country. He does the technical support of many highend brands. He talks a lot about the cheaper parts they are using these days more often. I did listen to many highend amps in the last few years and almost each amp I found unacceptable. Based on the fact that they do not own all the different aspects/properties of sound. These amps will never create a stunning endresult. The other problem is that most highend amps are also not precise enough. I have to admit that I am an extreme perfectionist. It needs to be superior and able to reveal all the aspects of sound at an ultimate level. In all other situations I am not interested. In the last 10 years I only played with Pass Labs monos and poweramps. But there is a big chance I will buy a Gryphon Antileon Evo stereo poweramp in 2019. https://gryphon-audio.dk/shop/power-amplifiers/antileon-evo-stereo/ The price in Europe is 36K, I do not know what the price is in the US. This 84 kilo beast is like 3 different poweramps in one box. - you can use it as 2 times 150 watts pure class A - you can use it as 2 times 100 watts pure class A and the rest in class B. - you can use it as 2 times 50 watts pure class A and the rest in class B. This is very unique and I also love the dna of these amps. It can create one of the deepest and widest 3-dimensonal stages in the world. But it is also ultimate in layering in sound. This is the most important aspect of sound. Based on the fact that our emotion is being stimulated the most by this property of sound. The resolution is one of the best as well. I prefer it over any tube poweramp because it is more precise regarding all the aspects/properties of sound. Their philosophy is the same as how we like it. https://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/equipment-menu/706-gryphon-audio-designs-antileon-evo-ster... I love the looks and how it is build. |
Dec 2018 TAS Jonathan Valin reviews MBL class D offerings and says: For a preamp priced a hair under $15k and a pair of monoblock amps about a third the price of the Constellation stereo amp, this was highly competitive performance. and with MBL 101 E Mk.II omnidirectional.speakers he says: it was the sheer joy I experienced listening to the system. Driven by the Noble Line electronics the 101 E Mk.IIs were and are nothing if not continual goosebump-raising fun. Now the MBLs pre and monos butt up against $50K, which is about on third the cost of their non class D |
LOL clearly you are defensive when YOU need not as you have owned and enjoyed your amps for 10 years, you will likely be buried with them as I plan to do with my 22 year old Yamaha Royal Star motorcycle Your 10 yo Mac tube amps are based on tube tech that was around for decades. That they might be worth $5K today would be for collectors more than for what can bought today, whereas class D was going through technology growing pains 10 yeas ago. These days class D 's are damned good and in many opinions (Robert Harley as one example) equal to or better for a LOT less money than whatever the equivalent Mac to your 10 yo Macs would cost today |
How old are you Ihasaguy? The question is not who is willing to buy today but who will be around tomorrow that thinks the Mac is as cool as it once was? I was a McIntosh dealer so don't get me wrong, but I saw the Mac buyer age right along with the product. McIntosh deserves to be one of the last guys standing but I seriously doubt any mega weight audio products are going to be here tomorrow. Any of them. That's just me speaking but that's also from the mouths of the designers themselves. mg |
Interestingly, I have a pair of McIntosh 501s that are worth over $5,000 that I bought 10 years ago. Sell, I think not. What is you 10 year old class D expensive amp worth today? Tweak1, think before you condemn other amp types to the dustbin. McIntosh will be alive and well 10 ulyears from now. Academic research has proven the best predictor of will you be in business next year is how long you have been in business. For McIntosh that is 70 years. I shall not bash other equipment types, but know the imbedded customer base for both tube and SS McIntosh amps is not going anywhere. |
When I said sell your class A, AB, tube amps NOW before you can only get pennies on the dollar, what I meant was $5,000+++ amplifiers days are over, at least for anyone who does a modicum of research prior to purchase, or who expects commensurate value before spending 2-3-4++ times the money, or who isn't suffering from Napoleon issues. Each day that I follow this thread and listen to my system with a lowly Audio Alchemy stereo amp (MSRP $2K) and then listen with an even more critical ear, I remain amazed at the sweet sound it produces IN MY CURRENT SYSTEM. When I bought the Hattor XLR passive pre I experienced a impedance mismatch, which I resolved by getting the AA matching DAC//Pre Again, I refer anyone to the March 2016 review, wherein Robert Harley compares the AA kit to Soulution EXTREMELY favorably (same designer). Of course, if one's system tends toward bright then, who knows? And I am well aware that older Class D tech left a lot to be desired Now that all said, I admit to wanting to explore more class D options. Nord's NC MK II monos are drawing me near, but funds ddo not llow me to get them without first selling mine, which I would not do as it provides so much musical pleasure |
Hello 213, I am completely with you on the subject of class A and A/B ill-conceived conjectures of their imminent demise... There are amazingly wonderful amplifiers from all classes and topologies. While I remain an unapologetic fan of the Rowland house sound, during my visits at RMAF I was totally mesmerized by the tone of Soulution SS amps and by the ARC tubed reference series. In the class D domain, the Bel Canto Black series is a fb example of high end amplification.... And Merrill Audio has introduced a brand new series of amplifiers based on a class D circuit of Merrill's own design... I had the fortune of having an early prototype of the Merrill Element 118 in my system during last spring, and while the prototype still displayed some minor teething issues, Element 118 certainly showed high promise, and the final product would be worth considering. Really, the "my amp class's bigger'n'better'n yourn game is so much hogwash! There are some top flight amps out there.... class a, ab, d, tubed, and so forth... Their tonal character and musicality is typically unique to the brand and to their design and execution, not so much to their class of operation. Besides, what I enjoy need not be what everyone else loves.... Let's value diversity in this beautiful hobby of ours. Saluti, G.
|
Thanks for that, guido. My mind used to be made up, back when I thought cables made no difference and all amps were pretty much the same, a bit of propaganda pushed hard on the Avs site. Now I’m more of the school that believes everything matters. On that score I’m sure I’d be quite happy with a pair of Bel Canto monoblocks, or any other class d amp that is designed well. live and let live. Surely everyone can choose for themselves without silly threads announcing that class A/B is dead, however. |
Thank you 213runnin for that delightful bit of purple prose. I should like to counter with my favorite -- if admittedly pessimistic -- quote from our own Rodman99999...
"Just don't fall into the category of those whose minds, like concrete, are thoroughly mixed, and permanently set" RODMAN99999
Yet things might not be quite as bad as that... Get out of the house a bit, get some fresh air.... You might even discover that the Earth ain't flat.
Saluti, G.
|
That beast looks like the stuff of class D wet dreams! |
clearthink Kosst is right. If you had to ask that, you’ve obviously had zero experience with smp’s and or with their caps. http://www.ijmlc.org/papers/326-L40116.pdf Cheers George |
Ah yes, the Rowland Daemon superintegrated.... Hope to have the opportunity of having one in my system some day and scribble about it... Meantime, for some info on Daemon, here is its page: https://www.jeffrowlandgroup.com/daemon/ Saluti, G.
|
kosst_amojan"SMPS's are notoriously hard on caps." Do you have any "credible proof" of that as you demand, insist, and require of others to deliver to you upon your sole, unilateral, and arbitrary demand "proof" supported by scientific data that you accept or reject at your singular discretion while you insist that lack of credible proof reflects "snake oil" "cons" and other such nonsense. |
| Post removed |
jeffwyo577 posts12-22-2018 2:53amClass D, as soon as your warranty runs out have fun getting somebody to fix it if & when it goes down, with all the surface mount components in new digital amps most techs won't touch them including meThis is also so true, yes built in obsolescence is what they do have, when they go smoking it up. The switch mode power supply (smp) board can "sometimes" be fixed but they do fry up in a spectacular way. The Class-D amp board, when it goes up sometimes becomes a junker, you can usually say goodby to them. And the manufacturers charge like a wounded bull for a new board, even at trade price, that's if they still have them as a spare part. It's sometimes better just to get a new amp if both smp and amp have blown. Cheers George |
| Post removed |
Hello @pokey77... Yep, looks like I have missed this happily brawling "class struggle" all together *Grins!*
Or perhaps this a "religious" argument?! Like in.... How many comparators can dance on the head of a pin?
Or is this the eternal fairy tale of "Princess and the Class D pea?
Reality is that if anyone is wondering if class D amplifier development has reach maturity, they need not look at any nebulous future.... That future is, quite comfortably, right here and now. Of course, this might mean taking stock of reality, open ears, eyes, and minds, and drop dearly beloved preconceived pseudoscientific notions of inherent superiority of any class of operation over any other one. Just go out there and start listening to music and systems.... And I mean, LISTEN WITH YOUR EARS".... Put back stats, graphs, and spreadsheet into the closet, where they belong.... Eventually you might realize that what moves you is not whats inside the box, nor what the box looks like, nor how much it costs.... But just what that box does for living, and the beauty of the music it is capable of conveying.
Rare are the amps that not only deliver the main content of the music with resolution and precision, but have enough subtlety to let you experience the thought and emotion of the composer and the performer.... And even fewer that let you glimpse into the hesitations and misgivings that the performer might be having about the music.
I have experienced this rare magic from amps of most all classes or topology.... Be they tubed, such as the AudioResearch Reference series amps, SS like the Soulution amps, or certain class D amps like the Merrill Element 118, the Rowland M535 bridgeable and my beloved M925 monos.
I am currently evaluating a pair of Rowland M535 bridgeable amplifiers for which I am preparing a detailed scribbling to be posted on Audiogon. I am absolutely stunned by the coherence of their presentation, the musicality of the tembre, the vastness of the stage, the concreteness of images, the complexity of the harmonic exposure, the abscence of distortive artifacts in complex and simple passiages alike, the living silence between the notes, the majesty of their authority, the tunefulness of the entire audible spectrum from deep bass to high treble, the elegant luminosity of the overall presentation, and last but not leas the sheer emotionality of what I hear. If they costed $46K for the pair I would merely call them splendid.... Yet, M535 lists at a smidgeon below $6K per chassis.... I scratch my head trying to find the right word to define what I am experiencing.
M535 is not simply "Good for a class D amplifier"..... It truly is instead, a magnificent instrument for making music, regardless of its class of operation. Ah yes, in case you wondered, it runs as cool as a proverbial cuke, as it appears to be approximately 97% efficient.
Nor what Jeff Rowland is achieving with class D amplifiers comes in isolation. Last spring I had the privilege of having in my system an early prototype of the Merrill Element 118 monoblocks.... different house sound from Rowland, but also enormously captivating, with wonderful dynamics and subtlety all their own. As what I tested whas a prototype with some crucial parts of the audio path not completely finalized, I can't voice any conclusive findings... Except for having the feeling that the final product is something definitely worth considering.
Saluti, G.
|
Speaking for myself, I love it when someone starts a thread with the title “the future of...” . Whatever comes next is whatever they’ll be peddling, singing the praises of etc. Class D, why are the fans of class d so defensive? we get it. You like class D. But stop behaving like a cult and pushing your views as people skirt by, mumbling about having given at the office. Yeesh. |
| Post removed |
Class D, as soon as your warranty runs out have fun getting somebody to fix it if & when it goes down, with all the surface mount components in new digital amps most techs won't touch them including me, (not wanting to use a magnifying glass or microscope) it becomes garbage or parts. I have one I use for a sub for my TV, but that's it. Very light weight power amps which is great, other than that no thanks, Ill stick to to things I can repair myself. With these, you can: https://www.amazon.com/Magnifier-SOONHUA-Head-Mounted-Magnifying-Replaceable/dp/B0742CJJM9 Surface mount can easily be done if you have the right tools. Most class D amp use dedicated chips; for example a single chip that includes encoding scheme, high and low side level shifting, driver circuits and dead time circuits. The outputs don't see the same stresses as conventional power transistors because the heating cycles are less extreme and it is heating cycles that ultimately damage power transistors (although conventional devices can handle well over a million heating cycles so its probably moot). But most class D amps in high end use some sort of module so if one is needing repair, you just replace the module which is much easier than servicing the unit at the board level. |
Class D, as soon as your warranty runs out have fun getting somebody to fix it if & when it goes down, with all the surface mount components in new digital amps most techs won't touch them including me, (not wanting to use a magnifying glass or microscope) it becomes garbage or parts. I have one I use for a sub for my TV, but that's it. Very light weight power amps which is great, other than that no thanks, Ill stick to to things I can repair myself. |
LOL, I had to go look up what an E-bike was, isn't that sad, I'm getting old or lazy lol. As far as A AB or D my favorite would be based on Tuning. That means, parts in a big heavy chassis? Nope, I can beat those up with a low mass amp of any type. Amps that have tons of dampening? Nope I want something I can apply variable tuning to. Amps with shielded transformers? Nope, I like open field designs. There are lot of criteria I have for amps A AB and D isn't one of them. JA measuring amps means zero to me. I'm more interested in his latest test equipment (JA is a test equipment junky, in a good way). Distortion? I haven't met anyone from this forum yet that deals with a well rounded view of distortion and the effects of. Lets see would that be effects or affects (wink). Here's a quick example. I walk into a listening room to listen with some guy talking about amp distortion and how he can hear it. Now we're standing in an untuned room and our breathing is at 10dB without anything else happening. He talks and I instantly can hear the room distorting, why and where. No music yet and we're at 55dB. So we turn on the music and I'm hearing all kinds of things happening that can and should be Tuned to give us the best soundstage for that recording, 65-95dB. Then after I do some tuning he's going to want me to tune it differently to his ears. What am I thinking about his claim to hear the difference in .02 distortion? Excuse me I have to use the bathroom and read my Stereophile :) Michael |
But no matter what, transistors switching off and on will always make huge amounts of high order distortion.@kosst_amojan It doesn't work that way IME. What makes distortion in a class D is how well the encoding scheme works. For example if PWM, any offsets generated by the comparator (or otherwise) can cause distortion. This means you have to be careful in such a circuit to block any DC that might come from your triangle wave generator- and in that circuit, the quality of the triangle wave is pretty important too. Its not uncommon for the encoding scheme to have troubles at lower levels. For this reason I prefer PWM as its problems are more likely to be at higher power levels rather than at low levels. Each encoding scheme has its upside and also difficulties! But the switching of the outputs themselves do not contribute to distortion, which is a major advantage of Class D, since the operation of class A, class AB and B this is not the case. |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
Kosst, My last post wasn't directed at you, but more of a dismissal of class D as being worthless. Not in so many words by some, but I think one can read between the lines. Looking back on what I said about 10% distortion isn't quite accurate, but some of these tube amps show just a handful of watts being useful up to about 1% distortion and this distortion rises quite rapidly as output goes up. With 10% being a approx. figure getting near these amps rated output. I don't know how you feel, but to me 1% or higher at a handful of watts output doesn't translate into very good performance, at least as far as I'm concerned.... |
| Post removed |
@fsonicsmith If you get a chance, look into the Tour Divide Race, from Banff to Antelope Wells. @vt4c +1 |
The first time I got so excited that I danced to a music system was when I was about 5 listening to a six way mono really big box speaker through Heathkit tube gear in 1961 listening to Dvorak Slavonic Dances and Brahms Hungarian Dances on Capitol. Since then, I have experienced many excitable recordings. Even my wife claps after a really great recording/performance. The most recent was In A Jazz Orbit by Bill Holman and Tchaikovsky Sym. No.1 with Michael Tilson Thomas and Boston Sym. Toe tapping (former) and jumping up and down fun music (last movement latter). |
My goal is to own a great representation of all class of amps . Having owned a Bryston 14bsst2 , Krell 300cx , Hypex Ncore 400 , Audio Research ref 75 , Exogal Ion , I find certain amps mate well with certain speakers . I have gone through roughly 30 pairs of speakers in the last 5 years . Each speaker brings out the best in every class of amps . No one clear cut winner for each . Does there have to be a best amplifier topology ? Have enjoyed all types . Enjoy what you got ! |
This entire thread is about perspective. Which throne do you sit upon? I am a former bicycle racer. Which bike is best or what is the bicycle of the future? It all depends upon your perspective. Michael Green would be all about e-bikes s'far as I can tell. Again, which throne are you sitting upon? At the end of the day, we have moved light years in medicine and IT and have moved millimeters in audio technology. I own Class D in my car. It sounds good. But in my home, in my dedicated listening room, I prefer tubes. Which throne do you sit upon and what is your perspective? I don't really care, mind you, I have found what works best for me by trial and error. This Board is the silliest extreme of democracy. I enjoy it but I will protest here and there that some posts are vague, non-determinative, and sometimes, downright silly. Unlike photography in which digital has taken over most die hard film based stalwarts, audio is not going to change anytime soon. There will be SE tubes, Class AB tubes, Class A solid state, A-B solid state, and Class D and maybe more. Unlike photography, there will be no paradigm shifts in the next ten or twenty years. |
Class A biasing is the easiest to get the most linearity from a tube/transistor. The other classes are a result of minimizing heat generation, and related detrimental effects.Throw enough time and money at a problem and it can likely be solved.The biasing class does not resolve other technical issues, like sloppy power supplies, noise generation etc. It is possible to screw up any biasing class, alone it does not solve all the issues.Measurement equipment has gotten a lot better over the years, but the dB scale does not correlate to what is important in psycho-acoustics. In the early days harmonics was easily measured, and an important and fundamental measurement in RF circuits. Here decibels works fine.The human ear generates harmonics internally and may mask the harmonics from an amplifier. Much have been said on the issue of non-linearities of sound equipment, and measurement standards have sharpened over the years. As transistor amplifiers replaced tube amps way back when, measurements for tube amp were applied, and looked OK, but sounded worse. Early transistor circuits where copies of tube circuits, with inter-stage transformers and everything. Maybe a good thing as the weak frequency response of the magnetics components may have filtered out some nasties.Then the power wars started (70's?) and FTC declared that "music power" was wrong and RMS power was the way. This lead to many wrong design decisions, as music was not the way to judge music equipment. This was stupid, as these audio amps where not intended to power light bulbs, but reproduce signal with very high peak to average ratio.Since then this has been mostly corrected or ignored.The poor consumer has been told to trust the numbers more than his ears, which has lead to generations of people not being exposed to good sound.The convenience factor is more important than sound quality. Sound does not have a "look" like TV picture, where quality judgement is plain to see.The .mp3 revolution hit the whole sound world in the groin. We are still trying to recover from this, and it will be hard. Adding insult to injury music forms have been developed that masks the poor quality of the storage formats. Synthesized music which lacks an acoustic reality is not exactly challenging to reproduce. The loudness wars have further compressed the dynamic range and will mask low resolution storage formats. Recording studios, with "impressive" looking mixer boards, will do their best to produce a "sound" (-signature) that likely is much different than a natural performance, to sell more units. Close-miking and overdubbing may be cool, but gets tiresome. Old recordings made with very simple gear may sound better than later generation equipment.Hence the trend towards retro equipment. There is as far as I know not any objective parametric audiophile grading standard for equipment performance. Hence too many words.Subjective evaluation is fraught with difficulties. Listening fatigue, emotions, stress, and the like makes it hard. Music is by nature emotional, which is a trap for objectivity. Equipment can sound different but still good, so what is the verdict, fidel or no fidel? Sound buffs may want to have a nice sound coming out of their speakers, which is opposite to what fidelity is. If the source material is crap so should the sound out of the speaker be too. There are tons of bad music compositions topped by bad performances and bad recording techniques served up in mediocre formats. These _should_ sound bad if accurately reproduced. Good music, with good performance, recording technology and storage format, is exceedingly rare. When was the last time the hair on your arms raised up from listening a beautiful piece of music?Seemingly most people do not care, keep listening to the junk material. Looking at high end equipment makes me think that most of the money is spent on what meets the eye.Good sound equipment should not be super expensive. If you cannot tell how it sounds unless it is big and shiny, it is not sound reproduction that is primary. Congratulations if you read all this, you must be very mad by now :-) |
| Post removed |
