fleschler626 posts12-13-2018 11:31am
georgehifi is the poster who has no technical counter argument. That’s very rich coming from a "fuser", water off a ducks back coming from the likes of you. " I have both Black and Blue fuses and prefer the blue overall. It was easy to tell which fuses were stock as the difference is so great
The fuse change was especially easy with the Blue fuse sounding better immediately versus the 72 hour break-in period for the Black.
Get the Blue fuse and enjoy better music without the wait. The SR Blue fuse sounded great right away while the SR Black took 72 long hours to achieve it’s great sound. I’m so happy to pay only $20 more for a ready to use fuse." What a load of **** |
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Yep looks like GaN technology has infiltrated into car audio also and beat the competitors, the SoundDigital SD300.2 https://ibb.co/80x8L1C
Matt Hall, a very experienced sound quality competitor and audiophile, has done an amazing test with numerous high end amplifiers from different brands. There were a total of 18 listeners, all unaffiliated with any audio equipment manufacturer. We are proud to announce that the GAN made it to TIER 1, which was reserved only for the highest quality amplifiers, the ones that can be really used for Reference Level listening. This is a direct quote from Matt’s review: "Describing how dimensionally accurate, transparent, and dynamic this lightweight amplifier is with profound adjectives seems disingenuous, but I assure you, I’m no charlatan. This amplifier is legit!" To read the complete review, please click here: http://issuu.com/diogoianaconi/docs/amplifier_shootout Soon we will be releasing information on the new GAN amplifiers. We will have a 2-channel and 4-channel version! Cheers George
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It’s what I said, and have been saying now about GaN technology for close on a year. It’s the single biggest technology improvement step so far since Class-D technology made an appearance in "full range" audio, not just for subs. And what you said kinda echo’s that. "I definitely recommend people always seek out and consider the latest and greatest technical innovations that can clearly help move things forward" |
I definitely recommend people always seek out and consider the latest and greatest technical innovations that can clearly help move things forward, Class D or otherwise, especially before dropping big bucks on older technology alternatives that have not evolved much but now cost more than ever. Correct, all the current big $ or cheaper Class-D’s have not really progressed in a big way, yes they play around with different parameters, inputs ect and keep bringing out different "versions" of the same thing shifted sideways a little. But it’s still "basically" the same operation/componentry/topology as when it started. |
Great find, by
mountainsong
GaN technology for $4k, and this Technics SU-G30 is also a complete network integrated amplifier. Seems like it doesn’t use the 1.5mhz higher switching frequency that the $20k Technics SE-R1 uses, but does use a hybrid power supply, not all smp, and by just using the GaN technology it’s probably front of all it’s competitors anyway. https://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/1837138-technics-sug30-network-amplifier.jpg
What one reviewer thought The musical reproduction offered by the Technics SU-G30 was among the best sound of any amplifier I have ever reviewed. Technics has a short preamble in the manual that hypes the great sound of this amplifier and I agree with their marketing-driven assessment. It is ironic that the better digital gets, the closer it sounds to analog. Tubelike even. And at some point, digital can have the best qualities of digital and analog at the same time. This is how I view the audio prowess of the Technics SU-G30 – it is like analog, super clean analog at that. My generalized listening impressions involved excellent purity of tone, a huge soundstage, amazing detail retrieval along with surprising excellence on streaming services.
BTW looking at the heatsinks in the SU-G30 above, that section is the GaN amp, it may have higher than todays 600khz switching because it’s using these heatsinks, as EPC said to me if left at 600khz there is no need for any heat sinking on any of the GaN boards, so it maybe higher. Could be a great sounding little amp, I can think maybe Quad ESL57’s would be nice as they can’t take to much wattage, or any > 90db speakers
Cheers George
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aolmrd1241
Here is another GaN amp to add to the list... You can read more about it in these publication reviews http://agdproduction.com/news.htmlYeah?? I don’t know about that one, jury’s still out, till we hear more about it. Looks to me like a bit of a furphy to gain an edge with the tube brigade, and cashing in on new technology. Might still sound great. I ask, why put solid state components inside an old 6550 vacuum tube envelope, bet it’s not vacuum’ed back out and sealed again either. Still it may sound good, just the whole gutted tube thing, stuffed with solid state, and still using all the tube pins as power/current transmitting contacts???? PS: OK he’s shown all his cards, in this statement " Company founder Alberto Guerra admitted that he did it largely for the sake of visual aesthetics. “Otherwise a class-D amp just looks like a box,” he said. The amp uses gallium nitride MOSFET output transistors, which Guerra says switch faster and allow the amp to have a noise floor in the -120 to -130dB range. Power is rated at 200W into 4 ohms." Good on him, I think it was a bad move to do it. (must have been an Italian brain snap to do the tube thing, they do make some of the best and worst cars also) Cheers George |
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michaelgreenaudio
Thanks for the link George.
That's ok Michael, here another little read you may be interested in, it from the AES Berlin White Paper presented by EPC's (GaN) Steve Colino and Alex Lidow inventor of the Power Mosfet all those years ago. EPC's White Paper "excerpt" on GaN technology used in the Technics SE-R1 and Merrill Element 118: "You can increase switching frequency and audio bandwidth to reduce the filtering cost. The choice in optimal switching frequency is always a trade-off in EMI profile, efficiency and audio performance. The ability to use much higher switching frequencies before compromising efficiency allows for a much range within which to make this trade-off. The result is a more optimized audio solution without fear of Thermal or EMI boundaries.
Most importantly, you will be providing, by far, the most realistic listening experience to your customer in a Class-D system." This is why you'll see, Class-D's with heat sinks inside for each channel like the Technics SE-R1, if they've used the higher 1.5mhz switching speed available to them to use with the GaN. https://abm-website-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/ecnmag.com/s3fs-public/embedded_image/2018/02/figure1.PN...I also asked EPC by email what manufactures other than Technics and Merrill Audio are using or developing Class-D amp with their GaN technology, they replied today, other than the two I mentioned, they said: " We are unable to reveal due to the Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) with our customers.
But I can assure you that there are several customers globally, developing with
eGaN FETs for Audio applications, primarily due to the benefits it offers." Finally it seems Class-D has stepped it up in a big way in technology because of EPC's GaN technology, and maybe put up a fight against the very best of linear amps for sound quality in the mids and highs, I think they already have that mantle for bass performance. Cheers George |
Oh and the guy who has done it successfully is only a "semi pro".
Semi "for it" because of his statement. (forest and trees mapman) "evolutionary pathway of audio design that MAY produce even more astonishing results IN THE FUTURE"
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assuming the are the same George who reviewed the Hattor passive pre with a Nord
Sorry you need to do your homework there sunshine, you've got the wrong George I'm afraid on that one.
I'm fine with it if you don't like class D for whatever reasons, just don't tell me it is garbage
No one said it was garbage, I said it doesn't compete with hiend linear amps "yet"!!, one day it will with the likes of the Technics SE-R1 and the Merrill Element 118 now using the new GaN technology that it needs to be rid of it's achilles heel to get there. Cheers George |
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Eric you've tried numerous threads to get this Class-D "praising thing" on a roll, never to keep going, because of the "non acceptance" by way too many for you to counter.
Give it up be happy with yours, that you say you can't hear any problems with it.
And let those that can, and have been down that path go the way they want.
The only ones that are really backing you, are manufacturers that are making, going to make, or selling them in retail supply, they all have a monitory interest in doing so.
It almost sounds like sometimes you asking for acceptance for owning Class-D and listening to it.
I've always said Class-D will be the top dog one day, just not yet, all the detractors (designers and audiophiles) of it have the same common complaint, it's the upper/mids and highs that are the problem, never the bass, this is a done deal showing where it needs to improve. |
good Class D is better than several Class A amps. Maybe against backyard junkers. It’s not yet, only in the bass. But soon hopefully maybe everywhere. |
You sound like your either a dealer or in the manufacturing chain for Class-D, if so which one do you sell, make or affiliated to?
Cheers George |
Zero-feedback Class D would seem to be a unique twist.
Bit late to the party Merrill already did it using the GaN transistors, I believe the SE-R1 does also. Merrill Quote:
Merrill Audio claims that this is by far their most ambitious design mostly because they are using open loop, zero feedback, and zero deadtime with GaN gallium nitride transistors, which are better than most transistors used in other solid-state amplifiers because that have close to zero capacitance, which allows fast switching.
Plus, the gallium nitride transistors can operate in the GHz range. Gallium nitride transistors offer a fast, clean, low distortion power capability", and so Merrill Audio claims that are "natural and smooth in their musical capability".
And after doing this, since the distortion was eliminated, there was no reason to use any feedback at all. He went on to tell me that he is very proud of not having to use feedback.
Eliminating feedback has two distinct advantages. The speed capability is increased significantly and a remarkable gain in the clarity of musical information is achieved. Since there is no signal loop-back, all the feedback loop distortions as well as the attendant time delays are eliminated.
Cheers George |
Also, have you (as George is implying) had a religious conversion to the world of class D to the point of implementing it in your products? A fair question, hopefully without the words prototype or breadboarded that no one else has heard. Cheers George |
So that makes the scan frequency in this example only 200KHz(!), Wrong again when have you seen an amp that can do 200khz, have a slewing audio frequency square wave like this, the sides are collapsing in like the leaning tower of pizza Our OTLs are quite good at 1 watt 20KHz squarewaves too. And that is where you should stay linear and with tubes, otl, even add trany coupled, so your not hamstrung to certain speakers. You built your rep on them and now your going to destroy that?. Not a good move, it will come back and bite you on the arse, your just another respected amp manufacturer saying "give me some of that class-D action" |
I think you misinterpreted this.
Nobody has been building amps with switching speeds that low in a long time Geez Ralph other way around, get with it, in this case I wasn’t talking about 200k switching speeds, I was talking band-width and the slewing of this square wave I posted up, with and without switching noise embedded in it. |
I for one have owned the gamut of amplification (including several class D variants with multiple iterations of Hypex and a DIY amp from Class D Audio). Class D was pleasant enough (with a tubed pre-amp), but failed to hold my attention and seemed vaguely flat and bleached for lack of a better description. This common even with those that persevere with it as above. But some don’t hear it, and because they can’t hear it, they say those that do are full of it, even if measurements are backing them up. Bet you thought there was nothing wrong with the bass though . I still believe it is the future, just not yet, I think the Technics and Merrill ones with GaN technology, are going to lead the way, and take Class-D where it needs to be to compete with the hiend linear amps. The others at the moment are great bass amps, but not hi-end yet elsewhere in the audio band.. Cheers George |
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Listeners having a problem with their mids and highs have a system problem not a Class D amp problem.
They don't have the problem without the Class-D in the system, are you listening to your self, and you call yourself a room tuner.
I wouldn't want to guess what you do to counter the mid/high problem. |
The resistance to innovation on this forum is frightening. There’s a reason for it, it’s there and real, and if you can’t hear it, fine. But please, don’t tell others they can’t, when they can, and the measurements back them up. And you can’t refute the amount of listeners that can hear the problem with the upper mids and highs. Even the very best of manufacturers have said so, no need to paste up that list again. Some here that have a monetary gain in Class-D and others that own them, refuse to believe that other can hear a problem. They can keep their https://wonderopolis.org/wp-content/uploads//2015/03/1425_3.jpg |
Ricevs, your only protecting your new Class-D baby your soon to unleash on the public, built around the Icepower Class-D modules, it’s as clear as the nose on your face. here’s a free plug, but I think it’ll end up a furphy. http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/EVS_1200_amplifier.html |
If you like Class-D as it is that's fine.
Others say they can't, and it's always the mids and highs that is the problem, never the bass because that's what they're good at ever since they first came out.
And the title of this thread is. "The Future of Audio Amplification" and it will be Class-D one day, when they have a total acceptance in the mids and highs for the hiend, not just with those that can't hear it for some reason.
And that one day is getting closer with amp like the Technics SE-R1 and also maybe the
Merrill Audio Element 118 monoblocks if they did it right like the Technics. |
Doesn’t matter what spin you put on it, your just in future product protection mode like ricevs. I suggest all members here to look close at these two scope shots of the same Class-D amp this one without the "AP filter" used, this large % of switching noise is what’s being sent to the speaker, and it is NOT repeat NOT!!! going into slewing protection. https://www.stereophile.com/images/1212AM1fig02.jpgThe this a shot of the same amp exactly the same scope shot, but this one with the "AP test filter" in place, exactly the same save for the deletion of the % of switching noise, that gives the impression that this is what goes to the speaker to make it look good to the buying public, but it’s not, whats above is! https://www.stereophile.com/images/1212AM1fig03.jpgAnd let me say, what ever you look at, these are both pathetic looking square wave shots, even for an old cheap 1970’s solid state amp to be producing, yet alone a "today’s state of the art modern Class-D" the only one approaching that is below and now the new GaN transistor equipped Merrill Audio Element 118 monoblocks. Now look what happens to the GaN transistor equipped Technics SE-R1 with far higher switching speeds. The blue trace is what the Technics can produce (hardly any residual switching noise, and look how straight up an down the sides of the square wave is this indicates hardly any phase shift down into the audio band, unlike the 2 above who’s sides are quite inward tilted which indicates phase shift into the audio band. https://www.technics.com/content/products/r1/images/se-r1-img2-2-uk.pngCheers George |
which has to be filtered in order to prevent the analyzer from having difficulty; in JA’s words: This is just pure BS and you have been sucked in by those words "your just echoing Stereophiles words" that are advertiser driven, and anyone can see it. And I think you know that, as you don’t want your Class-D to look bad when a 1k square wave is put through it. As no such AP filter was used at Stereophile before, when all Class-D were measured with the same analyzers. And it showed just how bad what was coming out of Class-D’s. Also when the AP filter was introduced, Stereophile use to give the wave form shots with and without the filter. And then later mysteriously only with the filter, probably because of manufacturers complaints how bad it looked without filter. So one can see it was just the ugliness of the wave form without the filter, that potential customers didn’t like seeing, and this effects sales, and advertising. Just like ricevs (Tweak Audio) you are both protecting your soon to be released Class-D amps, and just ricevs you do/say anything not to tarnish it’s launch. Again a blind man can see it. |
The switching frequency is at 450kHz, no tweeter could possibly reproduce that... Not that anyone would hear it, not even dogs. You need to understand better, it’s not the switching frequency "so much" but the "output filtering" needed to get rid of it that ’s problem, which gives phase shift problems right down to 3-5khz (the mids and highs of the audio band). (That's why any complaints of Class-D is the upper mids and highs, never bass or lower mids). If that switching frequency were to be moved up 3 x higher (like the $20k Technics SE-R1 does with the GaN transistors) then that "output filter" can be also moved up by the same amount, then the phase problems move up as well in the audio accordingly. I would like to see 5 x higher. Cheers George |
erik_squires
Which measurements, @kosst_amogan for which specific Class D amplifier?
make up your mind your making everyone dizzy. One day you put s**t on anyone that presents measured proof, the next day your quoting or asking for measurements, ya can't have it both ways sunshine. |
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For more information, you may want to contact the company.
Regards, G. If they are using these EPC GaN transistors in this prototype, the only reason would be to be able to attain a far higher switching frequency speeds to 1.5mhz like Technics with the SE-R1. Can you point to a link where you saw this is stated?? Cheers George |
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There’s always a next-great thing. In the case of fast transistors, cool. Show me an audible benefit that everyone can hear before I get that hyped up about it. It’s what the present Class-D "cons" are all about, listen to a SE-R1. I’d lay money on it, that you’ll put one of the first with your hand up for one when it suits your pocket. And your old one with the lower switching frequency, will become unsellable junk save for use as a bass amp. Cheers George |
Haven’t found a digital which can compete.Most digital are to clean for my ear. Sterile with no decaying harmonic structure, creating too much dead time, are the words I believe you should be using. Cheers George |
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There’s a huge difference between a pre-amp and a power amp. Correct, two different active Class-D subs and one SR reciever I’ve had on my HT system, have eventually blown their smp caps, and in a chain reaction taken out the class-d amp as well, luckily new plate amps were available, and at trade price, just cost effective to repair for myself only, no way for a customer, they would maybe have been better of as Ricev’s said junking it and buying a new one. Cheers George |
tweak1
No one has mentioned GaN class D yet. Seems to be a game changer
You need to get out more. https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1664763
teo_audio
If GaN acts like a V-Fet or a SIT, then they might be on to something.
And they are, the EPC guys (
Alex Lidow ceo ect) who invented the GAN, also invented the power mosfet many moons ago and sold the rights it to the world, for the moment only Technics are using the GAN with their limited availability $20k SER-R1 amps. Chers George |
newest class D amps are so good and so cheap that you could just throw them away
That's just great, depends just how well off you are. Try saying this to an owner who Class-D has just smoked it, as see what you get back in return. Also you sell them, so you and are definitely not impartial. |
Nobody will be calling any class D amp "legendary" 10 years after it was sold. They’ll all be in landfills. Correct, not only do they sound questionable to many, but owners will be cursing the day they purchased them. As replacement boards will not only be obsolete, but very expensive if NOS in stock. As no one will be able to fix them down to component level economically, 4 layer pcb, double sided componentry, and all smd! all squashed into the size of a pack of cards, good luck !!! Cheers George |
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jeffwyo577 posts12-22-2018 2:53amClass D, as soon as your warranty runs out have fun getting somebody to fix it if & when it goes down, with all the surface mount components in new digital amps most techs won't touch them including me
This is also so true, yes built in obsolescence is what they do have, when they go smoking it up. The switch mode power supply (smp) board can "sometimes" be fixed but they do fry up in a spectacular way. The Class-D amp board, when it goes up sometimes becomes a junker, you can usually say goodby to them. And the manufacturers charge like a wounded bull for a new board, even at trade price, that's if they still have them as a spare part. It's sometimes better just to get a new amp if both smp and amp have blown. Cheers George |
Nelson Pass once said
"The first watt is the most important watt"
Cheers George |
ricevs I don’t take **** from someone who has posted what he said about mains fuses seriously, and if you want to keep any cred at all, I advise you that you shouldn’t either. But then some remarks you’ve made about mains fuses, are dodgy to say the least, but then maybe you want to play both sides of the fence for a reason. |
but to have friends Who in gods name would want a "snake oiler" as a friend.
you must play nice
Why play nice with the "snake oil" pushers here, they just have their hands in the gullible's pockets, they are con men and need to be exposed not pandered to. There's too much of this snake oil BS creeping into hiend audio because of the money to be made (eg $250 for a 20c fuse) and then being told it's directional and also needs to break-in for 200hrs.!!! It just drags audio down, just show some of this "snake oil" stuff to any electronic genius who has nothing to do with audio, and he will laugh in your face. |
What evidence? You know, like 80,000 fancy fuses sold. Hel-loo! Wake up and smell the coffee, guys! ☕️ Mention mains fuses as "snake oil" and look who shows up, the king of directional mains fuse detection, really, and the rest of the fuse crew follows? |
