Nandric, The screws are marketed by Yamamoto under the product name, BT-1. I think you can probably buy them from an eBay vendor. The price was about $25US. When I saw them, I remembered clearly that DT regarded titanium screws as a categorical imperative, per your now ancient posts on the subject (not directly from DT). I think Henry had some too, for his Palladian cartridge. By now, I thought you were a happy user of titanium screws. Anyway, now you can be. If you can’t find them, and if you let me know in the next few days, and if I go back to an audio store for one of those other much more expensive items, I’ll pick you up a set.
Technics Sp10 Mk2 vs SL-1200G - I finally did an A/B
Guys, it is payback time. I have asked so many questions here to improve my knowledge or make a good purchase. I should give back now.
This is a topic that is HOT these days. Are the new generation Technics 1200G/GAE and Sp10-R better than the vintage Sp10 Mk2 and Mk3 ?
I have myself asked this question multiple times here. The most common reply was a resounding "Yes" in favour of the new 1200G/GAE. The 10R is still too new and not many have a direct opinion. But in general, even those who have commented on the 1200G vs Sp10 mk2, almost no one has compared them side by side. Some have written based on aural memory, some based on specs and design, and some have written based on pure subjective opinion.
In any case, most of us are very happy that Technics has done it. A very few business oriented minds might be disappointed that their business around vintage Technics DDs would take some hit due to these modern machines.
Since I was in the market for a good high resolution TT to replace my modded Loricraft Garrard 301, I took active interest in the Technics DDs. Overall I was convinced that the 1200G is the machine to look out for. It was clearly favored over the smaller sp10 and more or less compared to the bigger sp10 mk3. I got a brand new 1200G and sent it to Time-Step audio for their Evoke PSU mod. It is a very well accepted mod in the UK markets. In general the Switch-Mode PSU of the 1200G is considered its Achilles heel so this mod was a necessity.
I finally had the 1200G at my home. I won't go into the process of setting up as it was a simple and straight forward one. I used its own Technics tonearm to start with. I tried couple of platter mats but its own default mat sounded fine so it remained. I have 2 cartridges to play, the Denon 103r and Ortofon Cadenza blue. None of them are esoteric stuff, but I find them very neutral and musically "right" sounding carts.
Straightaway the 1200G revealed that it was a more transparent and higher resolution player than the Garrard. The noise floor was lower, inner details more easily heard. Soundstage more precise and layered. Great! There was an extra sparkle to the sound which was quite thrilling. More like going from HD to UHD. What felt a bit lacking was overall dynamics and scale. The 1200G sounded "Compact". The Garrard was like a full blown full scale sound. I let the 1200G run at 78rpm for many hours so that the burn-in process is expedited. I also tried both the auto and manual servo settings to vary the torque and balance of the sound. As I listened more I also realized that the 1200G does not have the fluidity that I am used to with the Garrard or other belt drive TTs I have heard. Notes bloom but die out instantly, followed by a silence before the next note. Something that joins the notes so that it all sounds related was missing a bit. In terms of dynamics, the intensity of an "explosion or a shout" was kind of controlled. That takes away a bit of that startle factor which allows us to get awestruck with our systems. Bass on the 1200G sounded a bit chopped. It did not feel very deep and powerful. I rather felt I am listening to mid-upper bass with average impact. But when it came to details it sounded like a super Cd player in a good way.
I decided to play with the tonearm at this point. I have a 47 Labs RS-A1 tonearm which has its own standing mount. One can just lift it and place it at the right distance so that the under-hang is correct and you are good to go. It is a musical tonearm. Once installed, this tonearm gave the Technics a significant jump on the performance. Especially it made the Technics sound less hifi and more musical, more fluid, more jump factor. Just plain more realistic. But then it brought the same kind of improvements to the Garrard too. I did a lot of comparison shifting this tonearm between the 2 TTs. All my above comments about their differences holds true.
After about 2 weeks and multiple hours of comparison on all kinds of music, I decided that while there are areas where the Garrard lacks and Technics clearly shines, musically Garrard is more realistic whereas Technics is more cerebral. I knew I was going to miss that hi-rez sparkle from Technics but I could only keep one so it has to go. I sold the 1200G. But the curiosity still remained so I bought a Sp10 Mk2.
After there 1200G left my place, the Sp10 Mk2 arrived. I did not have a plinth but I had read on Audiogon that it can be used in the naked form with a suitable isolation like the Audio Technica AT-636 Pneumatic footers. I have those footers so I installed the Sp10 on those footers and used the 47 Labs tonearm with Denon 103r for listening.
In the first 10 secs it was clear the Sp10 Mk2 is a more dynamic player than the 1200G. It sounded more like a Garrard in terms of scale, dynamics and drive. At the same time it was more transparent than Garrard. I had read couple of opinions that the vintage Sp10 DDs has more torquey motor drive. Here I was clearly hearing that. If I enter the room, I would not know which player is playing simply because of the similarity in slam, dynamics and tonality. My Garrard has the audiosilente idler wheel, woodsong audio brake disc and kokomo bearings. It is also driven by a dedicated AC regenerator for a clean AC input. In effect it is a much cleaner and neutral TT than typical Garrards. The Sp10 Mk2 is a less romantic sounding TT overall but it does not feel "compact", "thin" or "bright". It sounds natural, which is a very important trait to enjoy music. It sounds big and punchy without sounding colored or veiled. I have not even installed the plinth yet. My Garrard is still the king in the system but the Sp10 is a good contender with higher resolution and lower noise floor overall.
Guys, I don't know how to put it. I am not here to spoil the party of the 1200G/GAE owners. It is definitely a very complete package. You get warranty, company support, spares and all the peace of mind with the new Technics DDs. But if you are one of those adventurous types deciding between the old school and new gen Technics TT, the old Sp10 mk2/mk3 wins it for me, purely from the sound quality perspective. New technology probably has given the new Technics a bit more refinement but the drive, excitement and immediacy of real instruments still is conveyed best by the grand old boys.
My system:
. Loricraft Garrard 301 (mods: Kokomo mk2 bearing, Audiosilente idler wheel, Woodsong audio brake disc, Funkfirm Achromat, Monarcy Audio AC regenerator)
. 47 Labs RS-A1 tonearm
. Ortofon Cadenza Blue, Denon 103r carts
. Trilogy 907 phonostage
. Berning MicroZOTL 2.0 preamp
. Audio Note Conquest Silver Signature SET monoblock amps
. Tannoy Turnberry SE speakers
P.S: I did not compare the 2 Technics side by side but it was almost back to back as the Sp10 arrived after 3-4 days of the departure of 1200G. Since it was all in my own system, I had a good hang of what they felt like.
This is a topic that is HOT these days. Are the new generation Technics 1200G/GAE and Sp10-R better than the vintage Sp10 Mk2 and Mk3 ?
I have myself asked this question multiple times here. The most common reply was a resounding "Yes" in favour of the new 1200G/GAE. The 10R is still too new and not many have a direct opinion. But in general, even those who have commented on the 1200G vs Sp10 mk2, almost no one has compared them side by side. Some have written based on aural memory, some based on specs and design, and some have written based on pure subjective opinion.
In any case, most of us are very happy that Technics has done it. A very few business oriented minds might be disappointed that their business around vintage Technics DDs would take some hit due to these modern machines.
Since I was in the market for a good high resolution TT to replace my modded Loricraft Garrard 301, I took active interest in the Technics DDs. Overall I was convinced that the 1200G is the machine to look out for. It was clearly favored over the smaller sp10 and more or less compared to the bigger sp10 mk3. I got a brand new 1200G and sent it to Time-Step audio for their Evoke PSU mod. It is a very well accepted mod in the UK markets. In general the Switch-Mode PSU of the 1200G is considered its Achilles heel so this mod was a necessity.
I finally had the 1200G at my home. I won't go into the process of setting up as it was a simple and straight forward one. I used its own Technics tonearm to start with. I tried couple of platter mats but its own default mat sounded fine so it remained. I have 2 cartridges to play, the Denon 103r and Ortofon Cadenza blue. None of them are esoteric stuff, but I find them very neutral and musically "right" sounding carts.
Straightaway the 1200G revealed that it was a more transparent and higher resolution player than the Garrard. The noise floor was lower, inner details more easily heard. Soundstage more precise and layered. Great! There was an extra sparkle to the sound which was quite thrilling. More like going from HD to UHD. What felt a bit lacking was overall dynamics and scale. The 1200G sounded "Compact". The Garrard was like a full blown full scale sound. I let the 1200G run at 78rpm for many hours so that the burn-in process is expedited. I also tried both the auto and manual servo settings to vary the torque and balance of the sound. As I listened more I also realized that the 1200G does not have the fluidity that I am used to with the Garrard or other belt drive TTs I have heard. Notes bloom but die out instantly, followed by a silence before the next note. Something that joins the notes so that it all sounds related was missing a bit. In terms of dynamics, the intensity of an "explosion or a shout" was kind of controlled. That takes away a bit of that startle factor which allows us to get awestruck with our systems. Bass on the 1200G sounded a bit chopped. It did not feel very deep and powerful. I rather felt I am listening to mid-upper bass with average impact. But when it came to details it sounded like a super Cd player in a good way.
I decided to play with the tonearm at this point. I have a 47 Labs RS-A1 tonearm which has its own standing mount. One can just lift it and place it at the right distance so that the under-hang is correct and you are good to go. It is a musical tonearm. Once installed, this tonearm gave the Technics a significant jump on the performance. Especially it made the Technics sound less hifi and more musical, more fluid, more jump factor. Just plain more realistic. But then it brought the same kind of improvements to the Garrard too. I did a lot of comparison shifting this tonearm between the 2 TTs. All my above comments about their differences holds true.
After about 2 weeks and multiple hours of comparison on all kinds of music, I decided that while there are areas where the Garrard lacks and Technics clearly shines, musically Garrard is more realistic whereas Technics is more cerebral. I knew I was going to miss that hi-rez sparkle from Technics but I could only keep one so it has to go. I sold the 1200G. But the curiosity still remained so I bought a Sp10 Mk2.
After there 1200G left my place, the Sp10 Mk2 arrived. I did not have a plinth but I had read on Audiogon that it can be used in the naked form with a suitable isolation like the Audio Technica AT-636 Pneumatic footers. I have those footers so I installed the Sp10 on those footers and used the 47 Labs tonearm with Denon 103r for listening.
In the first 10 secs it was clear the Sp10 Mk2 is a more dynamic player than the 1200G. It sounded more like a Garrard in terms of scale, dynamics and drive. At the same time it was more transparent than Garrard. I had read couple of opinions that the vintage Sp10 DDs has more torquey motor drive. Here I was clearly hearing that. If I enter the room, I would not know which player is playing simply because of the similarity in slam, dynamics and tonality. My Garrard has the audiosilente idler wheel, woodsong audio brake disc and kokomo bearings. It is also driven by a dedicated AC regenerator for a clean AC input. In effect it is a much cleaner and neutral TT than typical Garrards. The Sp10 Mk2 is a less romantic sounding TT overall but it does not feel "compact", "thin" or "bright". It sounds natural, which is a very important trait to enjoy music. It sounds big and punchy without sounding colored or veiled. I have not even installed the plinth yet. My Garrard is still the king in the system but the Sp10 is a good contender with higher resolution and lower noise floor overall.
Guys, I don't know how to put it. I am not here to spoil the party of the 1200G/GAE owners. It is definitely a very complete package. You get warranty, company support, spares and all the peace of mind with the new Technics DDs. But if you are one of those adventurous types deciding between the old school and new gen Technics TT, the old Sp10 mk2/mk3 wins it for me, purely from the sound quality perspective. New technology probably has given the new Technics a bit more refinement but the drive, excitement and immediacy of real instruments still is conveyed best by the grand old boys.
My system:
. Loricraft Garrard 301 (mods: Kokomo mk2 bearing, Audiosilente idler wheel, Woodsong audio brake disc, Funkfirm Achromat, Monarcy Audio AC regenerator)
. 47 Labs RS-A1 tonearm
. Ortofon Cadenza Blue, Denon 103r carts
. Trilogy 907 phonostage
. Berning MicroZOTL 2.0 preamp
. Audio Note Conquest Silver Signature SET monoblock amps
. Tannoy Turnberry SE speakers
P.S: I did not compare the 2 Technics side by side but it was almost back to back as the Sp10 arrived after 3-4 days of the departure of 1200G. Since it was all in my own system, I had a good hang of what they felt like.
126 responses Add your response
@lewm you have Zu Audio in Utah, they are amazing if you're looking for full range drivers like Tannoy. I'm a big fan of full range crossover-less speakers. If you're not familiar with ZU check Druid MK VI or Definition models. I use lower Druids, but upgraded with latest drivers and latest super tweeters. These speakers have tremendous dynamics up to 101db. |
Thanks, Chakster, but my dance card is full of two full range crossover less speakers. The Sound Labs 845PXs from which I’ve removed the crossover and the Beveridge 2SWs which employ electronic crossovers, high pass and low pass set at 80 Hz. Above 80 Hz it’s a single driver. I am very familiar with Zu but I have never heard a pair in a private system, only at shows. |
Pani, How are those Tannoy Turnberry speakers? I often see them in stores, but I’ve never heard a pair in action. They are popular in Japan, for sure. Lewm, anything for a Tannoy related discussion :-). These are the only items that has remained in my system for the last 6 years without even a thought of being replaced. They have a monitor like tone without any dryness. They have a throw and presence akin to a horn speaker but at the same time sounds like point source because of the concentric drivers. They do deep, punchy and wet bass notes which are again a speciality of those big drivers in a big cabinet. Oh, you can get me talking on this all day long. You should listen to it properly powered. My friends here in Singapore have replaced their Avalons, Focal Utopia and Wilsons with a Turnberry and are amazed with what they have been missing all these years. |
Dear Lew, thanks for the implicit compliment . Your willingness to buy those ''necessary titanium screws'' for me means to me that you are satisfy with my Ortofon MC 2000 . I should obviously ask more money for the precious (grin). I am not sure if Dertonarm's Arche is made from titanium but well that my Clear Audio headshell is sold to me as such. So those BT-1 kinds will get good company if you succeed to buy one set for your ''old forum friend''. |
Pani: Did you listen to your Technics 1200G before you had the Time-Step PSU installed? No, I did not. I bought it with Time Step PSU. What does the Time Step psu do to or for the performance of the 1200G?The 1200G comes with a SMPS by default. It supposedly adds a layer of HF hash to the sound. It is a very common phenomena with all things involving SMPS. The time-step PSU is an analog PSU with toroidal transformer and designed as an external unit connected via an umblical cord to the TT. It supposedly lowers the noise floor and sounds it should, i.e "analog" |
Pani I just cannot come up with a hypothesis to explain how the SMPS could cause a fogging of the audio signal from the turntable. In my most paranoid way of thinking about it I suppose it could cause a periodic speed aberration but no one has reported such an observation. Anyway, good luck with your new tt. |
I take that back. Of course there is another way that the PS could color the sound, and that’s by direct radiation of RFI or EMI that could be picked up by the cartridge. But that is a problem that could easily be prevented in the design, if adequate shielding is utilized. Having the PS outboard also would help. |
Every PSU has its own distortions which come through in a TT too. That’s why a power cord change on a TT also results in a different sound. A SMPS has its switching distortions in Hf region. It also spews back the noise into ac line contaminating the sound of other equipments. All of this probably causes the hash that we all relate to in a SMPS based equipment. I have personally felt the problem whenever I have used any SMPS based audio equipment. Be it the Linn Ikemi cdp, Bluenote Stibbert cdp, Crayon audio amps, pro-ject phono RS etc. I didn’t want to bring in similar trouble with the 1200g |
With due respect, I disagree with many of your a priori assumptions. True, EMI from the tt motor can move back onto the AC line and contaminate the AC going to other components, and I suppose any EMI or RFI from an SMPS can do the same, but it is only normal prudence therefore to isolate the AC line supplying the tt from the AC going to other components. The same, by the way, goes for digital equipment. How could switching distortion from an SMPS supplying a turntable affect performance except by the mechanisms mentioned? And how is it that Berning amplifiers are so highly regarded, given that they have used SMPS type supplies for a few decades now? (Because I do think it’s possible to create a clean SMPS or at least a well isolated one.) Whether an AC cord can make a difference to the sound of a tt, I will leave for another day. I’m sure it can, via the mechanism of listener bias, which is very real. |
2 things @lewm , 1. I have spoken to Berning directly on this subject. He clearly agrees that all SMPS has those switching distortions which manifests as a hint of glare, hash..in the HF region. After all music signal is basically riding on the power created by the PSU. As per Berning, his output transformer is primarily filtering those distortions that occurs in the very high frequencies. Still it is somewhat audible which he says is a compromise to choose from. An analog PSU as per him is big, bulky, susceptible to interference from other components, complex (because it has to be an external box) where a good SMPS is small, efficient and with his design less distorted. So, the point is, SMPS distortion is ubiquitously accepted. 2. I have heard power cords affecting sonics very very clearly and that too not in a subtle way of magnitude. If you don't agree with such a phenomena, that's fine. Have you tried different power cords on your TTs ? |
@pani Thanks for your comments on the Time-Step power supply. There are very few A/B comparisons from actual owners on the web and those are mostly rather equivocal. I was hoping you had listened to your table before the operation. I read your review with great interest. My plan was to buy a Technics 1200G (which I just did) and, later, a restored Garrard 301. This year, I want to start making transfers of the rarer recordings in my record collection. The Technics is perfect for this. The Garrard would be more for fun and variety. Also it looks cool. Now, however, SME has announced the production a new Garrard 301 sometime next year... Great time for turntables in any case. |
The Garrard would be more for fun and variety. Also it looks cool. Now that is the news of the decade! If Garrards are back in production and that too with engineering prowess of SME, it will be a huge one. BTW, a stock restored Garrard is nothing more than fun, don't expect it to satisfy your audiophile cravings. It has to be really tweaked with some modern parts to get it to perform "hifi". That is one reason why Garrard is not an inexpensive proposition. |
There's no denying the possible ways in which a PS can negatively effect performance of any device that is actively passing the signal and especially if it's amplifying the signal, like one of DB's amplifiers. What I am questioning is how the PS of a turntable can affect the sonics of the vinyl reproduction system, except by the mechanisms I did acknowledge that require direct radiation of RFI or EMI from the PS to the cartridge, via the "air". And it does require some care to shield the LP from such potential radiation. I recently found that a copper platter mat greatly enhances the sonics of my Kenwood L07D, probably for this reason. So, having taken that position, I must also doubt the possible effects of a power cord, for essentially the same reason. The signal is never modulated by the PS or vice-versa, in a turntable. However, because I am as anal as anyone else here, I have upgraded power cords on my turntables just as a matter of course; I've done no listening tests, because I would not believe my own results. I know from my scientific background that it is impossible to divorce onesself from listener bias. If you've spent money on a new toy, and if it looks cool, then you are bound to hear that it is "better" too. (Just read any of the threads on this Forum.) Life is too short to worry about it. |
Believe it or not, I cannot see how that external power supply was an upgrade. The 1200G to my knowledge is not designed for this modification. I am not hearing power supply issues. A good power cord does benefit the table. The secret with this table is run in. It takes a while but those who do this will be rewarded with excellent performance. With this table, its not about what is better or worse because every table has compromises. I think its more about the cartridge you put on it. Once one spends more than 3 grand on a table, I think the differences will show more with what cartridge you use with your setup. Also, things can be very system dependent as well. |
I think I was being too hard on Pani. I can well understand why he went for the PS upgrade just based on this affliction we all suffer from, that of being an "audiophile". Then too, I had the very weird experience of hearing that a fuse connected only to the LED lights in an autoformer volume control affected the sound of the system dramatically. And in the presence of four other experienced audiophiles, some of whom are "in the business", and who all agreed on the observations. So, the autoformer itself is completely passive with no power supply at all. On its chassis it has a digital read-out based on LEDs that light up; that little circuit that runs only the LEDs has a fuse. We compared an expensive audiophile fuse to the OEM "hardware store" fuse. If anything, we expected to hear no difference at all, because the electrical circuit has no relation to the autoformer. But to all 5 of us, the hardware store fuse sounded BETTER; it was obvious. I am still chewing on that. |
I have followed all of the Technics related threads since Axpona 2016. I started by asking if people heard the ‘table and thought of replacing the tonearm. Many have bought the 1200G and have thought that the stock arm is very good. It Is. Few, if any, have considered having the table modified to take a better arm. I have had my 1200G modded with a Triplanar Classic SE arm. Happy that I did. No Remorse. Unless I win a lottery, this will be my final rig. I am happy that others are trying different PCs, lCs, Mats, Record weights, Cartridges and sharing their thoughts. Just adds to the knowledge for All to get the best from the Technics TTs. The Technics arm is good and will allow you to easily try many cartridges, but IMHO, only to a certain level and then you just will not get from the cartridge you would like; all that it can deliver. You will need a better tonearm to accomplish that. As “Raul” told me: I can try rewiring the arm, try different headshells etc. Pain in the butt, some people like to do this endlessly; Not for me. Five mats and 3 record weights is enough. Final mat is Oracle acrylic platter mat and final record weight is HRS 315 gram record weight. This TT is music 🎶. A bargain and high value. All that have joined the Technics family; enjoy and keep experimenting. The stock ‘table can be improved. |
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lewm, You forgot to paste the fuse with “Total Contact” Maybe “Mad Scientist” or “Acoustic Spit” I tried HiFi tuning fuses in my Spectral DMA 360s a decade ago +/-. One blew the next morning at turn on. I replaced it with a ceramic fuse from Ace hardware for 0.55 $. Both are still in their respective amp. I cannot hear a difference. End of fuse experiments. |
Geoff, the point is that we could hear a difference. And the difference was decidedly in favor of the cheap fuse. I don’t know why we should’ve heard any difference. I tend to discount the whole experience, except for the fact that four other people, 2 of whom you would recognize by name, also heard it exactly the same way as I did. On the one hand, perhaps this should convince me that fuses do make a difference. On the other hand, it may also convince me that it is not necessary to spend big bucks on a fuse. |
nkonor, Allow me to share a personal experience. Your system looks wonderful and is comprised of tope quality components. But I question the placement of your Technics table. As reported a couple of times previously, my components are placed on two shelves, suspended within a 60" wide alcove along one sidewall. Originally my turntable was placed at the right end of the top shelf. One day I had reason to lean over the table while music was playing and I was surprised to hear the amount of bass build-up in that corner of the alcove. Realizing my arm/cartridge lived within that affected corner I assumed the acoustic feedback was not helping vinyl clarity. So I moved my turntable away from the corner to where the arm/cartridge would be at the mid-point of the shelf, furtherest from the two corners. That did result in noticeably improved clarity/resolution. I assume a right hand corner will be worse than a left hand one since that places the arc of the stylus closer to the corner itself. Your set up appears to have limited options but if you can move your table out of the corner you might benefit. Good luck. |
Lewm Geoff, the point is that we could hear a difference. And the difference was decidedly in favor of the cheap fuse. I don’t know why we should’ve heard any difference. I tend to discount the whole experience, except for the fact that four other people, 2 of whom you would recognize by name, also heard it exactly the same way as I did. On the one hand, perhaps this should convince me that fuses do make a difference. On the other hand, it may also convince me that it is not necessary to spend big bucks on a fuse. >>>>Who knows why you got the results you got. But obviously your results don’t comport with 70,000 others who have bought aftermarket fuses. Maybe directionality played a role. I tend to discount oddball results like yours since no single test should be used to draw general conclusions. |
"if additional room treatments were installed." Possibly true totem. But while I have done a couple of treatments my room is very unsymmetrical so not easily done. In fact I experimented with six Tube Traps a friend was selling but had disappointing results. Regarding my alcove, it is 24" deep and the installed shelves are 18" deep so not much room in the corners for treatments. Also the ceiling is 11' high so those two alcove corners are well above the turntable shelf. My best answer is to move and have a better room to begin with. ;^) |
Geoff, You wrote, "I tend to discount oddball results like yours since no single test should be used to draw general conclusions." This is such a puffball one-liner that I almost don't have the heart to start on it. First, "no single test should be used to draw general conclusions", UNLESS it is a single test that supports one's own pre-existing bias. Because such single-test reports are exactly what one has to go on when it comes to most tweaks. Second, where are your 70,000 counter-vailing reports? Is that how many boutique fuses you or the industry sold? If so, do you know that every purchaser came away convinced in favor of boutique fuses? My general impression reading this forum and the Tweaker's Asylum is that there is at best a 50-50 split on fuses. And of course the total of all reports in writing on forums is probably in the realm of a few hundred, pro and con taken together. So, where are your 70,000 reports stored? Third, if you were paying attention, I drew NO general conclusions. My report is simply an anecdote, has no statistical validity, except it does have unusual power in one respect: five (5) people were in the room, including me, and ALL FIVE of us heard it the same way. Like I wrote, two of the 5 guys (maybe 3, now I think of it) are very much professionals in the audio business, designers and one journalist. We were all surprised by the results, more because the circuit that was fused should not be affecting the audio at all. This certainly has me questioning my own bias against the importance of the fuse. Fourth, I kind of expected you to bring up "directionality". What is electrical evidence that fuses have directionality? Why would they have directionality when passing AC which is by nature bi-directional (has positive and negative phases alternating with regular frequency)? |
lewm, all of your questions, which are good ones, have been answered at length elsewhere, perhaps check out the Blue Fuse thread posts about two months ago where the 70,000 aftermarket fuse users number came from is described. The Blue Fuse thread contains everything you never wanted to know about directionality - how to measure it, how to listen for it, and why this fuse directionality means all wire is directional. |
@lewm there is no evidence that directionality affects fuses at all even in the thread that Geoff references. In fact, I would advise not to bother even reading the thread as it is hours and hours of your life you won't get back. It's basically voodoo nonsense with a dash of confirmation bias thrown in. |
@pani I have run a step down transformer on the Japan only micro see key for about five years with no ill affects that I've noticed. It's about 6 feet away in its own enclosure and everything works great. I really don't see how it could add any colouration whatsoever as The speed is locked in. However I could not ab it as I cannot run the table without it. |
@analogluvr It's basically voodoo nonsense with a dash of confirmation bias thrown in. well said I have run a step down transformer on the Japan only micro see key for about five years with no ill affects that I've noticed. I use two different powerfull step-down stans, one for japanese electronics, another one for american electronics. Absolutely no problem, compared to 220v Technics turntable without step-down transformers. |
I currently have a MK2, and am planning on using it sans plinth. Could anyone point me in the direction of someone that could make a tonearm pod? Or some that are heavy and already made, but not crazily expensive? I heard the MK3 at Albert Porter's and fell in love. I imagine the 10R will sound extraordinary. |
I use two different powerfull step-down stans, one for japanese electronics, another one for american electronics. Absolutely no problem, compared to 220v Technics turntable without step-down transformers.Just FWIW, you can also do this with bucking transformers, which for this application would be a lot less expensive. |
Dear @lewm : In theory in a good electronics design a fuse function is to protect the unit electronics and with no other kind of influence as the quality level unit performance but as your experiences not always is that way at least not with the boutique fuses that in general shows that makes a difference mainly for the better as @geoffkait says and the thread he makes reference. Your experience says other thing. Now: is it real that boutique fuse differences for the better?, this is a " hard " quesion because there are several audiophile reasons to think that that always happens: when one audiophile spend 100+ in a single fuse and only because the amount he spends on it he is waiting for sure that will be listen an improvement and is ready to listen it in the very first moment he change it in his system, so he is totally and heavy biased to listen an improvement but audiophiles does not changes only and only one fuse but 2-4 fuses that means that spends 200+-400+ on fuse tweack in his system and he has to justify ( even if it is not justified. ) the amount he spends. Now if he shares his heavy biased experiences in a thread that one person fuse bias is converted truly fast in a collective " madness " shared by other audiophiles that were all biased through that thread when in reality it does not happens but what they want to hear and they want to hear improvements no matter what. Now, if we read the words/adjectives used to express those kind of improvements we can attest that those " improvements " just does not exist in live music at near field position that's where recording microphones where seated/positioned. The recorded LP grooves signal does not pass directly through the fuse then why people say it changes the quality level performance of that signal ? ¡ ? ¡ ? in theory must be no change if the power supply and circuit signal design is a good design. This is athread posted by a very well regarded amplifier designer/manufacturer that speaks per sé: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=7luqg9gotsd94src6a9dppot71&topic=105425.0 I think that any audiophile must read it, a very learning thread. "" this fuse directionality means all wire is directional. "" and means? @geoffkait take the headshell wires in one of your cartridges and invert the position and then after some tests about please share your experiences about your conclusion. R. |
rauliruegas Dear @lewm : In theory in a good electronics design a fuse function is to protect the unit electronics and with no other kind of influence as the quality level unit performance but as your experiences not always is that way at least not with the boutique fuses that in general shows that makes a difference mainly for the better as @geoffkait says and the thread he makes reference. Your experience says other thing. Now: is it real that boutique fuse differences for the better?, this is a " hard " quesion because there are several audiophile reasons to think that that always happens: when one audiophile spend 100+ in a single fuse and only because the amount he spends on it he is waiting for sure that will be listen an improvement and is ready to listen it in the very first moment he change it in his system, so he is totally and heavy biased to listen an improvement but audiophiles does not changes only and only one fuse but 2-4 fuses that means that spends 200+-400+ on fuse tweack in his system and he has to justify ( even if it is not justified. ) the amount he spends. Now if he shares his heavy biased experiences in a thread that one person fuse bias is converted truly fast in a collective " madness " shared by other audiophiles that were all biased through that thread when in reality it does not happens but what they want to hear and they want to hear improvements no matter what. >>>>Oh, brother! If any of that were actually true then any naysayer could come along and say nothing works, no tweaks really work, especially expensive ones, and no amplifier is any better than another. It’s all psychological. When 70,000 customers hear differences between stock crap fuses and aftermarket fuses then what is that, mass hypnosis? |
Rauliruegas geoffkait "" this fuse directionality means all wire is directional. "" and means? @geoffkait take the headshell wires in one of your cartridges and invert the position and then after some tests about please share your experiences about your conclusion. >>>>No, no, no. For heaven’s sake! Wire directionality is nothing of the sort. Where have you been hiding? |
I don't think this is the place for this tired debate to be rehashed. I will only say that I completely agree with Raul when he describes the very powerful effect of listener bias, especially the bias that is there when one has spent hundreds of dollars on fuses to replace perfectly good (in terms of their function) fuses that probably cost $15-$20. Fuse tweakers will deny this bias, but it is inevitably there. From there we go to "directionality". I am perfectly willing to "believe" in directionality if any other believer can provide one iota of a scientific explanation for same. Wire directionality is already supposedly explained by differences in the direction of the grain or by methods used in casting the wire. This is delightfully unproveable, but it's out there. I don't reject directionality of wires, necessarily. I do reject directionality of fuses. And no, doubting these tweaker beliefs does not at all compel one to believe that "all amplifiers sound the same" or that all of any components sound the same. I certainly do not believe that. |
One (or, in the above case, five simultaneous ones) result does not count as it is an oddball. 70 000 people, allegedly, bought aftermarket fuses and it counts. Millions did not buy aftermarket fuses and it somehow does not seem to count. Why are the first five considered oddballs while other 70 000 are not? That is assuming that 70 000 is believable number of people and not the number of fuses sold. Who counted people buying fuses? Is it even possible? Or is it one more statement that cannot be proven either way so it became the accepted truth here? |
rauliruegas ... when one audiophile spend 100+ in a single fuse and only because the amount he spends on it he is waiting for sure that will be listen an improvement and is ready to listen it in the very first moment he change it in his system, so he is totally and heavy biased to listen an improvement ...Perhaps. As to this "heavy bias," how do you account for those who don't believe a fuse can make an audible difference but when given a fuse to test at no charge - perhaps by a dealer - then hear an improvement? Wouldn't they be just as "heavily biased" against hearing a difference? I don't expect you to actually answer this, Raul, because I've posed similar questions previously. Many of those who are quick to claim "listener bias" reject the notion that it works both ways. Indeed, those who can't even be bothered to listen, yet who assail claims made by those who do, may suffer the most profound bias of all. |
glupson One (or, in the above case, five simultaneous ones) result does not count as it is an oddball. 70 000 people, allegedly, bought aftermarket fuses and it counts. Millions did not buy aftermarket fuses and it somehow does not seem to count. Why are the first five considered oddballs while other 70 000 are not? That is assuming that 70 000 is believable number of people and not the number of fuses sold. Who counted people buying fuses? Is it even possible? Or is it one more statement that cannot be proven either way so it became the accepted truth here? >>>>>I’m sorry to have to be the one to tell you but your tricycle is stuck in reverse. No offense. |
Actually, the flaw in my own position is that I did hear a difference between fuses, and the cheap fuse sounded better than the boutique fuse. I got it backwards according to gospel, but those are the facts. What is more important is that five other people heard it the same way. Presumably, there was a mixture of listener biases in that room, pro and con. |
Yeah, we’ve been all through that already. Differences in fuse direction alone would explain your results. End of story. The trick is to have some independent parties try to get the same results. Then try to talk the 70,000 happy boutique fuse customers to go back to stock fuses. Good luck with that. |
"Then try to talk the 70,000 happy boutique fuse customers..."For now, there may be no 70 000 boutique fuse customers. The number may easily be incorrect and inflated to serve the purpose of making the claim somehow more valid. It has nothing to do with actual validity of fuses vs. other fuses debate. It is simply that 70 000 may be fabricated number. |
