Or may be A-E considering how many hours sleep I had on the days of comparison
Technics Sp10 Mk2 vs SL-1200G - I finally did an A/B
Guys, it is payback time. I have asked so many questions here to improve my knowledge or make a good purchase. I should give back now.
This is a topic that is HOT these days. Are the new generation Technics 1200G/GAE and Sp10-R better than the vintage Sp10 Mk2 and Mk3 ?
I have myself asked this question multiple times here. The most common reply was a resounding "Yes" in favour of the new 1200G/GAE. The 10R is still too new and not many have a direct opinion. But in general, even those who have commented on the 1200G vs Sp10 mk2, almost no one has compared them side by side. Some have written based on aural memory, some based on specs and design, and some have written based on pure subjective opinion.
In any case, most of us are very happy that Technics has done it. A very few business oriented minds might be disappointed that their business around vintage Technics DDs would take some hit due to these modern machines.
Since I was in the market for a good high resolution TT to replace my modded Loricraft Garrard 301, I took active interest in the Technics DDs. Overall I was convinced that the 1200G is the machine to look out for. It was clearly favored over the smaller sp10 and more or less compared to the bigger sp10 mk3. I got a brand new 1200G and sent it to Time-Step audio for their Evoke PSU mod. It is a very well accepted mod in the UK markets. In general the Switch-Mode PSU of the 1200G is considered its Achilles heel so this mod was a necessity.
I finally had the 1200G at my home. I won't go into the process of setting up as it was a simple and straight forward one. I used its own Technics tonearm to start with. I tried couple of platter mats but its own default mat sounded fine so it remained. I have 2 cartridges to play, the Denon 103r and Ortofon Cadenza blue. None of them are esoteric stuff, but I find them very neutral and musically "right" sounding carts.
Straightaway the 1200G revealed that it was a more transparent and higher resolution player than the Garrard. The noise floor was lower, inner details more easily heard. Soundstage more precise and layered. Great! There was an extra sparkle to the sound which was quite thrilling. More like going from HD to UHD. What felt a bit lacking was overall dynamics and scale. The 1200G sounded "Compact". The Garrard was like a full blown full scale sound. I let the 1200G run at 78rpm for many hours so that the burn-in process is expedited. I also tried both the auto and manual servo settings to vary the torque and balance of the sound. As I listened more I also realized that the 1200G does not have the fluidity that I am used to with the Garrard or other belt drive TTs I have heard. Notes bloom but die out instantly, followed by a silence before the next note. Something that joins the notes so that it all sounds related was missing a bit. In terms of dynamics, the intensity of an "explosion or a shout" was kind of controlled. That takes away a bit of that startle factor which allows us to get awestruck with our systems. Bass on the 1200G sounded a bit chopped. It did not feel very deep and powerful. I rather felt I am listening to mid-upper bass with average impact. But when it came to details it sounded like a super Cd player in a good way.
I decided to play with the tonearm at this point. I have a 47 Labs RS-A1 tonearm which has its own standing mount. One can just lift it and place it at the right distance so that the under-hang is correct and you are good to go. It is a musical tonearm. Once installed, this tonearm gave the Technics a significant jump on the performance. Especially it made the Technics sound less hifi and more musical, more fluid, more jump factor. Just plain more realistic. But then it brought the same kind of improvements to the Garrard too. I did a lot of comparison shifting this tonearm between the 2 TTs. All my above comments about their differences holds true.
After about 2 weeks and multiple hours of comparison on all kinds of music, I decided that while there are areas where the Garrard lacks and Technics clearly shines, musically Garrard is more realistic whereas Technics is more cerebral. I knew I was going to miss that hi-rez sparkle from Technics but I could only keep one so it has to go. I sold the 1200G. But the curiosity still remained so I bought a Sp10 Mk2.
After there 1200G left my place, the Sp10 Mk2 arrived. I did not have a plinth but I had read on Audiogon that it can be used in the naked form with a suitable isolation like the Audio Technica AT-636 Pneumatic footers. I have those footers so I installed the Sp10 on those footers and used the 47 Labs tonearm with Denon 103r for listening.
In the first 10 secs it was clear the Sp10 Mk2 is a more dynamic player than the 1200G. It sounded more like a Garrard in terms of scale, dynamics and drive. At the same time it was more transparent than Garrard. I had read couple of opinions that the vintage Sp10 DDs has more torquey motor drive. Here I was clearly hearing that. If I enter the room, I would not know which player is playing simply because of the similarity in slam, dynamics and tonality. My Garrard has the audiosilente idler wheel, woodsong audio brake disc and kokomo bearings. It is also driven by a dedicated AC regenerator for a clean AC input. In effect it is a much cleaner and neutral TT than typical Garrards. The Sp10 Mk2 is a less romantic sounding TT overall but it does not feel "compact", "thin" or "bright". It sounds natural, which is a very important trait to enjoy music. It sounds big and punchy without sounding colored or veiled. I have not even installed the plinth yet. My Garrard is still the king in the system but the Sp10 is a good contender with higher resolution and lower noise floor overall.
Guys, I don't know how to put it. I am not here to spoil the party of the 1200G/GAE owners. It is definitely a very complete package. You get warranty, company support, spares and all the peace of mind with the new Technics DDs. But if you are one of those adventurous types deciding between the old school and new gen Technics TT, the old Sp10 mk2/mk3 wins it for me, purely from the sound quality perspective. New technology probably has given the new Technics a bit more refinement but the drive, excitement and immediacy of real instruments still is conveyed best by the grand old boys.
My system:
. Loricraft Garrard 301 (mods: Kokomo mk2 bearing, Audiosilente idler wheel, Woodsong audio brake disc, Funkfirm Achromat, Monarcy Audio AC regenerator)
. 47 Labs RS-A1 tonearm
. Ortofon Cadenza Blue, Denon 103r carts
. Trilogy 907 phonostage
. Berning MicroZOTL 2.0 preamp
. Audio Note Conquest Silver Signature SET monoblock amps
. Tannoy Turnberry SE speakers
P.S: I did not compare the 2 Technics side by side but it was almost back to back as the Sp10 arrived after 3-4 days of the departure of 1200G. Since it was all in my own system, I had a good hang of what they felt like.
This is a topic that is HOT these days. Are the new generation Technics 1200G/GAE and Sp10-R better than the vintage Sp10 Mk2 and Mk3 ?
I have myself asked this question multiple times here. The most common reply was a resounding "Yes" in favour of the new 1200G/GAE. The 10R is still too new and not many have a direct opinion. But in general, even those who have commented on the 1200G vs Sp10 mk2, almost no one has compared them side by side. Some have written based on aural memory, some based on specs and design, and some have written based on pure subjective opinion.
In any case, most of us are very happy that Technics has done it. A very few business oriented minds might be disappointed that their business around vintage Technics DDs would take some hit due to these modern machines.
Since I was in the market for a good high resolution TT to replace my modded Loricraft Garrard 301, I took active interest in the Technics DDs. Overall I was convinced that the 1200G is the machine to look out for. It was clearly favored over the smaller sp10 and more or less compared to the bigger sp10 mk3. I got a brand new 1200G and sent it to Time-Step audio for their Evoke PSU mod. It is a very well accepted mod in the UK markets. In general the Switch-Mode PSU of the 1200G is considered its Achilles heel so this mod was a necessity.
I finally had the 1200G at my home. I won't go into the process of setting up as it was a simple and straight forward one. I used its own Technics tonearm to start with. I tried couple of platter mats but its own default mat sounded fine so it remained. I have 2 cartridges to play, the Denon 103r and Ortofon Cadenza blue. None of them are esoteric stuff, but I find them very neutral and musically "right" sounding carts.
Straightaway the 1200G revealed that it was a more transparent and higher resolution player than the Garrard. The noise floor was lower, inner details more easily heard. Soundstage more precise and layered. Great! There was an extra sparkle to the sound which was quite thrilling. More like going from HD to UHD. What felt a bit lacking was overall dynamics and scale. The 1200G sounded "Compact". The Garrard was like a full blown full scale sound. I let the 1200G run at 78rpm for many hours so that the burn-in process is expedited. I also tried both the auto and manual servo settings to vary the torque and balance of the sound. As I listened more I also realized that the 1200G does not have the fluidity that I am used to with the Garrard or other belt drive TTs I have heard. Notes bloom but die out instantly, followed by a silence before the next note. Something that joins the notes so that it all sounds related was missing a bit. In terms of dynamics, the intensity of an "explosion or a shout" was kind of controlled. That takes away a bit of that startle factor which allows us to get awestruck with our systems. Bass on the 1200G sounded a bit chopped. It did not feel very deep and powerful. I rather felt I am listening to mid-upper bass with average impact. But when it came to details it sounded like a super Cd player in a good way.
I decided to play with the tonearm at this point. I have a 47 Labs RS-A1 tonearm which has its own standing mount. One can just lift it and place it at the right distance so that the under-hang is correct and you are good to go. It is a musical tonearm. Once installed, this tonearm gave the Technics a significant jump on the performance. Especially it made the Technics sound less hifi and more musical, more fluid, more jump factor. Just plain more realistic. But then it brought the same kind of improvements to the Garrard too. I did a lot of comparison shifting this tonearm between the 2 TTs. All my above comments about their differences holds true.
After about 2 weeks and multiple hours of comparison on all kinds of music, I decided that while there are areas where the Garrard lacks and Technics clearly shines, musically Garrard is more realistic whereas Technics is more cerebral. I knew I was going to miss that hi-rez sparkle from Technics but I could only keep one so it has to go. I sold the 1200G. But the curiosity still remained so I bought a Sp10 Mk2.
After there 1200G left my place, the Sp10 Mk2 arrived. I did not have a plinth but I had read on Audiogon that it can be used in the naked form with a suitable isolation like the Audio Technica AT-636 Pneumatic footers. I have those footers so I installed the Sp10 on those footers and used the 47 Labs tonearm with Denon 103r for listening.
In the first 10 secs it was clear the Sp10 Mk2 is a more dynamic player than the 1200G. It sounded more like a Garrard in terms of scale, dynamics and drive. At the same time it was more transparent than Garrard. I had read couple of opinions that the vintage Sp10 DDs has more torquey motor drive. Here I was clearly hearing that. If I enter the room, I would not know which player is playing simply because of the similarity in slam, dynamics and tonality. My Garrard has the audiosilente idler wheel, woodsong audio brake disc and kokomo bearings. It is also driven by a dedicated AC regenerator for a clean AC input. In effect it is a much cleaner and neutral TT than typical Garrards. The Sp10 Mk2 is a less romantic sounding TT overall but it does not feel "compact", "thin" or "bright". It sounds natural, which is a very important trait to enjoy music. It sounds big and punchy without sounding colored or veiled. I have not even installed the plinth yet. My Garrard is still the king in the system but the Sp10 is a good contender with higher resolution and lower noise floor overall.
Guys, I don't know how to put it. I am not here to spoil the party of the 1200G/GAE owners. It is definitely a very complete package. You get warranty, company support, spares and all the peace of mind with the new Technics DDs. But if you are one of those adventurous types deciding between the old school and new gen Technics TT, the old Sp10 mk2/mk3 wins it for me, purely from the sound quality perspective. New technology probably has given the new Technics a bit more refinement but the drive, excitement and immediacy of real instruments still is conveyed best by the grand old boys.
My system:
. Loricraft Garrard 301 (mods: Kokomo mk2 bearing, Audiosilente idler wheel, Woodsong audio brake disc, Funkfirm Achromat, Monarcy Audio AC regenerator)
. 47 Labs RS-A1 tonearm
. Ortofon Cadenza Blue, Denon 103r carts
. Trilogy 907 phonostage
. Berning MicroZOTL 2.0 preamp
. Audio Note Conquest Silver Signature SET monoblock amps
. Tannoy Turnberry SE speakers
P.S: I did not compare the 2 Technics side by side but it was almost back to back as the Sp10 arrived after 3-4 days of the departure of 1200G. Since it was all in my own system, I had a good hang of what they felt like.
126 responses Add your response
Thanks for input BUT You done an A/D comparison instead of A/B comparision. A-B = everything the same except T/T. same day, side by side & next to each other. A-C = as above except NOT same days A-D = Same system but diff cartridge.... diff arms ... diff days etc..... the ears can be very deceptive e.g Yanny vs Laurel case |
pani, thanks for sharing, your acquaintances comparative Sp10mk2/mk3 and Sp10r listening notes mentioned above are helpful, although from my perspective, I would require a private demo using familiar equipment to assess with confidence. Currently, my analog front ends consist of idler, belt and direct drive types and each have distinguishing strengths and variegated charm. To be quite honest, the laid back, slightly more resolving description of the Sp10r is not surprising but a bit disappointing nevertheless. Beginning with a fresh slate, why did such a established manufacturer not make a better effort to achieve drive and sophistication? In a modern context, in order to garner serious resolution capability from the Sp10Mk3, extensive modifications are mandatory. Awhile back, I went from a stock Mk3 to a highly modified direct coupled version and the difference was night and day, now dynamics and resolution are cast with great aplomb by comparison. |
I have not done it myself but I know couple of guys who have had the sp10r besides a sp10 Mk2/mk3. Their opinion was that the older sp10 models present music with more drive and momentum whereas the the new 10r is more about sophistication and resolution. A more modern and laidback take on music that is. So if you value more subtlety (belt drive style) and resolution then the 10r could appeal you more. For high energy, high drive, impactful listen the older sp10s does it better. |
@tzh21y thats very good news. I hope to listen to this TT again some time. It is a TT that if you like, you won't change for a long long time. @downunder , yes I have the Audiospecials Phonolab 1.0 at my home for trial. I have been hunting for that perfect phono for a long time now. First it was RCM Sensor Prelude - Good but not super. Then it was the Naim Superline with Supercap - Very dynamic and holographic sounding, but in the end it did not have the right flow of music (quite contrary to typical Naim products. Then I bought a Audio Note M6 phono. It is a MM only model with a SUT required. It is expensive and it sounds expensive too. Tone color, dynamics and all the tube goodies in huge dose with very good resolution too. What it lacked was speed. It doesnt swing and boogie with that realistic pace. Rather it gives music its own flavor of bloom, color and body with a laidback, full sound. To me I was listening to a "voiced" product. After all this I kept things simple and bought an old Yamaha C70 preamp with in-built phono which did not have any special tricks to highlight itself. Its all discrete FET based phonostage played music in a straightforward manner and it was okay for me till I found a truly honest phonostage with all the dynamics and slam of the big boys. The Audiospecials Phonolab 1.0 is here for a trial at the moment. They offer a 7 days trial period. What I am hearing is very very good. Colorless, big dynamic range, very quiet, high resolution and above all fast and precise like a true studio gear. You immediately know that you are hearing whats on the record with all its glory without voicing. Flow of music is very accurate so you sing along as the music plays. Lots gain and impedance adjustments so thats not a limitation either. That tube vs SS thing doesnt come into picture because music is sounding just right. I think it could be a solid keeper. I am happy with this discovery. At last someone hears music right and made an appropriate device. Now for my TT hunt, still on. That will be closing chapter (almost!). |
I just thought I would add a comment about the 1200G. I have had the table for about four months and when I went to listen today it was like a completely different table. I listen a lot so this kind of suprising. Bigger stage, Lower mids, and a lot more bass and I did nothing. I did not touch any settings. Sound is even more relaxed. It sounds absolutely incredible. So... when you think you have the table run in, maybe not. I cannot believe this. Just incredible. This table can have surprises, good ones at that. |
You can always recognize a determined troll by his stalking behavior and his pattern of always responding to every single bait cast out into the water, chomping down on the hook with gusto.Thanks for inspiration geoffkait. Over the last couple of months on Audiogon, I have not learned much about actual music reproduction. However, I did learn that geoffkait’s posts are a well of inspiration for answers to his own posts. My previous post (July 11, 2018 9:11 pm) was, in fact, a copy of geoffkait’s post aimed at me not so long ago. I cut it short so not to mention one of his favorite words. Otherwise, I think that geoffkait should start answering to his own posts. He really writes a good description of himself and picks on things he is weak at. |
Yes, we get that you aren’t really an audiophile, that you have no real interest in improving your sound, and cannot really develop a sense of how to actually debate any of the audiophile issues that appear on these forums, other than to pose as some sort of phoney baloney home spun Philosopher and facilitator. You aspire to be a Thorn in the side of audiophiles. Aka... Thanks for inspiration geoffkait. |
There are no 70 000 buyers of said fuses. There is a lots of imagination involved in that claim, but there is no knowledge right there. If there were, it would be available. 70 000 serves as a number to prolong the fetish of Internet arguing. Unfortunately, 70 000 is too low of a number. There should be 700 000 000. |
Changing the direction of a single head shell wire might demonstrate that wires are directional but it might not. The problem for headshell wires is that you don’t know whether a given wire is in the right or wrong direction. The odds are 50% that any given wire is in the correct direction just by accident. But you can’t know which ones are correct and which are not without a lot of work. It’s like trying to solve simultaneous equations with a bunch of unknowns. Changing one wire probably won’t correct the problem, the probability is it won’t, and it might actually make the problem worse. But if the tonearm wire manufacturer had been more forward thinking he would have controlled the wires for directionality. Unfortunately, the industry is far behind the times. Fortunately, some companies like Audioquest recognize that controlling cables, wires and even HDMI cables and power cords for directionality is the only way to fly. It’s called progress. Have you been following the wrong....you know... 🐑 🐑 🐑 |
Dear @geoffkait : """ mass hypnosis? """ Certainly not, is more like a " stampede " ( literally. ) . Here in Agon exist a second example of audiophile stampede and that was with the Victor TT101 where a gentleman pushed it as something very special TT and something near as: the best out there when in reality it’s not and even its specs are not at the top as the true top DD TTs but more on the average . Even that and with out any real facts people gone to hunting that vintage TT that normally needs to fix it because came with " problems ". This true example was a true " stampede " only even by the fuses one. I can tell you that I already tested in my systems not only the Hi-Fi but the top SR fuses too and I know is a stampede and in a stampede every one inside it is really happy " running " with out know why are running. " Hey why are we running ? ask one member to other in that stampede and received as an answer: don’t ask and keep running ! ! ! Certainly you are one of those stapede’s members. Good for you. Btw, do you already changed the direction of those headshell wires in one of your cartridges? what did you found out? because a headshell wire is a: " wire ". R. |
You do not know where the 70,000 number comes from. But I do. That’s the advantage of knowing vs not knowing, of being an audio insider. It’s a mostly a question of knowing how to do it. Maybe you should start a new party. You could call it the know nothing party. Party on, dudes. 🎈 🎉 But I digress. |
Or if there have been 70,000 boutique fuses sold (which data would be very hard to get hold of since there are so many different vendors of so many different fuses), we have no way to know whether a given buyer was happy with his purchase or heard no difference or felt ripped off. What I think is that the end caps can make a big difference in terms of the goodness of the contact they make with the fuseholder and maybe what metal they are made of. Then too, the fuseholder has to be jsut as important as the fuse. Geoff, I ask again, HOW can directionality make a difference? Give me a physical explanation. I suspect that the idea of directionality is really the result of the fact that when you take out a fuse and flip it around, there is at least a 50-50 chance that when you re-insert the fuse, the contacts have been cleaned by the friction of R&R'ing. Perhaps that can make a tiny audible difference. I hedge my bets by using Acme silver-plated, cryo-treated fuses in Acme silver-plated fuseholders, both of which products are "reasonable" in cost. And I never worry about directionality. I don't even worry about whether it makes a difference. It's kind of like praying, if I believed in a deity. Pani has every right to be pissed off about this digression in his thread. Sorry, Pani. |
"Then try to talk the 70,000 happy boutique fuse customers..."For now, there may be no 70 000 boutique fuse customers. The number may easily be incorrect and inflated to serve the purpose of making the claim somehow more valid. It has nothing to do with actual validity of fuses vs. other fuses debate. It is simply that 70 000 may be fabricated number. |
Yeah, we’ve been all through that already. Differences in fuse direction alone would explain your results. End of story. The trick is to have some independent parties try to get the same results. Then try to talk the 70,000 happy boutique fuse customers to go back to stock fuses. Good luck with that. |
Actually, the flaw in my own position is that I did hear a difference between fuses, and the cheap fuse sounded better than the boutique fuse. I got it backwards according to gospel, but those are the facts. What is more important is that five other people heard it the same way. Presumably, there was a mixture of listener biases in that room, pro and con. |
glupson One (or, in the above case, five simultaneous ones) result does not count as it is an oddball. 70 000 people, allegedly, bought aftermarket fuses and it counts. Millions did not buy aftermarket fuses and it somehow does not seem to count. Why are the first five considered oddballs while other 70 000 are not? That is assuming that 70 000 is believable number of people and not the number of fuses sold. Who counted people buying fuses? Is it even possible? Or is it one more statement that cannot be proven either way so it became the accepted truth here? >>>>>I’m sorry to have to be the one to tell you but your tricycle is stuck in reverse. No offense. |
rauliruegas ... when one audiophile spend 100+ in a single fuse and only because the amount he spends on it he is waiting for sure that will be listen an improvement and is ready to listen it in the very first moment he change it in his system, so he is totally and heavy biased to listen an improvement ...Perhaps. As to this "heavy bias," how do you account for those who don't believe a fuse can make an audible difference but when given a fuse to test at no charge - perhaps by a dealer - then hear an improvement? Wouldn't they be just as "heavily biased" against hearing a difference? I don't expect you to actually answer this, Raul, because I've posed similar questions previously. Many of those who are quick to claim "listener bias" reject the notion that it works both ways. Indeed, those who can't even be bothered to listen, yet who assail claims made by those who do, may suffer the most profound bias of all. |
One (or, in the above case, five simultaneous ones) result does not count as it is an oddball. 70 000 people, allegedly, bought aftermarket fuses and it counts. Millions did not buy aftermarket fuses and it somehow does not seem to count. Why are the first five considered oddballs while other 70 000 are not? That is assuming that 70 000 is believable number of people and not the number of fuses sold. Who counted people buying fuses? Is it even possible? Or is it one more statement that cannot be proven either way so it became the accepted truth here? |
I don't think this is the place for this tired debate to be rehashed. I will only say that I completely agree with Raul when he describes the very powerful effect of listener bias, especially the bias that is there when one has spent hundreds of dollars on fuses to replace perfectly good (in terms of their function) fuses that probably cost $15-$20. Fuse tweakers will deny this bias, but it is inevitably there. From there we go to "directionality". I am perfectly willing to "believe" in directionality if any other believer can provide one iota of a scientific explanation for same. Wire directionality is already supposedly explained by differences in the direction of the grain or by methods used in casting the wire. This is delightfully unproveable, but it's out there. I don't reject directionality of wires, necessarily. I do reject directionality of fuses. And no, doubting these tweaker beliefs does not at all compel one to believe that "all amplifiers sound the same" or that all of any components sound the same. I certainly do not believe that. |
Rauliruegas geoffkait "" this fuse directionality means all wire is directional. "" and means? @geoffkait take the headshell wires in one of your cartridges and invert the position and then after some tests about please share your experiences about your conclusion. >>>>No, no, no. For heaven’s sake! Wire directionality is nothing of the sort. Where have you been hiding? |
rauliruegas Dear @lewm : In theory in a good electronics design a fuse function is to protect the unit electronics and with no other kind of influence as the quality level unit performance but as your experiences not always is that way at least not with the boutique fuses that in general shows that makes a difference mainly for the better as @geoffkait says and the thread he makes reference. Your experience says other thing. Now: is it real that boutique fuse differences for the better?, this is a " hard " quesion because there are several audiophile reasons to think that that always happens: when one audiophile spend 100+ in a single fuse and only because the amount he spends on it he is waiting for sure that will be listen an improvement and is ready to listen it in the very first moment he change it in his system, so he is totally and heavy biased to listen an improvement but audiophiles does not changes only and only one fuse but 2-4 fuses that means that spends 200+-400+ on fuse tweack in his system and he has to justify ( even if it is not justified. ) the amount he spends. Now if he shares his heavy biased experiences in a thread that one person fuse bias is converted truly fast in a collective " madness " shared by other audiophiles that were all biased through that thread when in reality it does not happens but what they want to hear and they want to hear improvements no matter what. >>>>Oh, brother! If any of that were actually true then any naysayer could come along and say nothing works, no tweaks really work, especially expensive ones, and no amplifier is any better than another. It’s all psychological. When 70,000 customers hear differences between stock crap fuses and aftermarket fuses then what is that, mass hypnosis? |
Dear @lewm : In theory in a good electronics design a fuse function is to protect the unit electronics and with no other kind of influence as the quality level unit performance but as your experiences not always is that way at least not with the boutique fuses that in general shows that makes a difference mainly for the better as @geoffkait says and the thread he makes reference. Your experience says other thing. Now: is it real that boutique fuse differences for the better?, this is a " hard " quesion because there are several audiophile reasons to think that that always happens: when one audiophile spend 100+ in a single fuse and only because the amount he spends on it he is waiting for sure that will be listen an improvement and is ready to listen it in the very first moment he change it in his system, so he is totally and heavy biased to listen an improvement but audiophiles does not changes only and only one fuse but 2-4 fuses that means that spends 200+-400+ on fuse tweack in his system and he has to justify ( even if it is not justified. ) the amount he spends. Now if he shares his heavy biased experiences in a thread that one person fuse bias is converted truly fast in a collective " madness " shared by other audiophiles that were all biased through that thread when in reality it does not happens but what they want to hear and they want to hear improvements no matter what. Now, if we read the words/adjectives used to express those kind of improvements we can attest that those " improvements " just does not exist in live music at near field position that's where recording microphones where seated/positioned. The recorded LP grooves signal does not pass directly through the fuse then why people say it changes the quality level performance of that signal ? ¡ ? ¡ ? in theory must be no change if the power supply and circuit signal design is a good design. This is athread posted by a very well regarded amplifier designer/manufacturer that speaks per sé: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=7luqg9gotsd94src6a9dppot71&topic=105425.0 I think that any audiophile must read it, a very learning thread. "" this fuse directionality means all wire is directional. "" and means? @geoffkait take the headshell wires in one of your cartridges and invert the position and then after some tests about please share your experiences about your conclusion. R. |
I use two different powerfull step-down stans, one for japanese electronics, another one for american electronics. Absolutely no problem, compared to 220v Technics turntable without step-down transformers.Just FWIW, you can also do this with bucking transformers, which for this application would be a lot less expensive. |
I currently have a MK2, and am planning on using it sans plinth. Could anyone point me in the direction of someone that could make a tonearm pod? Or some that are heavy and already made, but not crazily expensive? I heard the MK3 at Albert Porter's and fell in love. I imagine the 10R will sound extraordinary. |
@analogluvr It's basically voodoo nonsense with a dash of confirmation bias thrown in. well said I have run a step down transformer on the Japan only micro see key for about five years with no ill affects that I've noticed. I use two different powerfull step-down stans, one for japanese electronics, another one for american electronics. Absolutely no problem, compared to 220v Technics turntable without step-down transformers. |
@pani I have run a step down transformer on the Japan only micro see key for about five years with no ill affects that I've noticed. It's about 6 feet away in its own enclosure and everything works great. I really don't see how it could add any colouration whatsoever as The speed is locked in. However I could not ab it as I cannot run the table without it. |
@lewm there is no evidence that directionality affects fuses at all even in the thread that Geoff references. In fact, I would advise not to bother even reading the thread as it is hours and hours of your life you won't get back. It's basically voodoo nonsense with a dash of confirmation bias thrown in. |
lewm, all of your questions, which are good ones, have been answered at length elsewhere, perhaps check out the Blue Fuse thread posts about two months ago where the 70,000 aftermarket fuse users number came from is described. The Blue Fuse thread contains everything you never wanted to know about directionality - how to measure it, how to listen for it, and why this fuse directionality means all wire is directional. |
Geoff, You wrote, "I tend to discount oddball results like yours since no single test should be used to draw general conclusions." This is such a puffball one-liner that I almost don't have the heart to start on it. First, "no single test should be used to draw general conclusions", UNLESS it is a single test that supports one's own pre-existing bias. Because such single-test reports are exactly what one has to go on when it comes to most tweaks. Second, where are your 70,000 counter-vailing reports? Is that how many boutique fuses you or the industry sold? If so, do you know that every purchaser came away convinced in favor of boutique fuses? My general impression reading this forum and the Tweaker's Asylum is that there is at best a 50-50 split on fuses. And of course the total of all reports in writing on forums is probably in the realm of a few hundred, pro and con taken together. So, where are your 70,000 reports stored? Third, if you were paying attention, I drew NO general conclusions. My report is simply an anecdote, has no statistical validity, except it does have unusual power in one respect: five (5) people were in the room, including me, and ALL FIVE of us heard it the same way. Like I wrote, two of the 5 guys (maybe 3, now I think of it) are very much professionals in the audio business, designers and one journalist. We were all surprised by the results, more because the circuit that was fused should not be affecting the audio at all. This certainly has me questioning my own bias against the importance of the fuse. Fourth, I kind of expected you to bring up "directionality". What is electrical evidence that fuses have directionality? Why would they have directionality when passing AC which is by nature bi-directional (has positive and negative phases alternating with regular frequency)? |
"if additional room treatments were installed." Possibly true totem. But while I have done a couple of treatments my room is very unsymmetrical so not easily done. In fact I experimented with six Tube Traps a friend was selling but had disappointing results. Regarding my alcove, it is 24" deep and the installed shelves are 18" deep so not much room in the corners for treatments. Also the ceiling is 11' high so those two alcove corners are well above the turntable shelf. My best answer is to move and have a better room to begin with. ;^) |
Lewm Geoff, the point is that we could hear a difference. And the difference was decidedly in favor of the cheap fuse. I don’t know why we should’ve heard any difference. I tend to discount the whole experience, except for the fact that four other people, 2 of whom you would recognize by name, also heard it exactly the same way as I did. On the one hand, perhaps this should convince me that fuses do make a difference. On the other hand, it may also convince me that it is not necessary to spend big bucks on a fuse. >>>>Who knows why you got the results you got. But obviously your results don’t comport with 70,000 others who have bought aftermarket fuses. Maybe directionality played a role. I tend to discount oddball results like yours since no single test should be used to draw general conclusions. |
nkonor, Allow me to share a personal experience. Your system looks wonderful and is comprised of tope quality components. But I question the placement of your Technics table. As reported a couple of times previously, my components are placed on two shelves, suspended within a 60" wide alcove along one sidewall. Originally my turntable was placed at the right end of the top shelf. One day I had reason to lean over the table while music was playing and I was surprised to hear the amount of bass build-up in that corner of the alcove. Realizing my arm/cartridge lived within that affected corner I assumed the acoustic feedback was not helping vinyl clarity. So I moved my turntable away from the corner to where the arm/cartridge would be at the mid-point of the shelf, furtherest from the two corners. That did result in noticeably improved clarity/resolution. I assume a right hand corner will be worse than a left hand one since that places the arc of the stylus closer to the corner itself. Your set up appears to have limited options but if you can move your table out of the corner you might benefit. Good luck. |
Geoff, the point is that we could hear a difference. And the difference was decidedly in favor of the cheap fuse. I don’t know why we should’ve heard any difference. I tend to discount the whole experience, except for the fact that four other people, 2 of whom you would recognize by name, also heard it exactly the same way as I did. On the one hand, perhaps this should convince me that fuses do make a difference. On the other hand, it may also convince me that it is not necessary to spend big bucks on a fuse. |
