Good review! My criticism: $4000 is still a lot of moolah - unless you are in the top 10% of wage earners! So I will just make do with my vintage 1200 (maybe get a new mat!).
Technics 1200 Critic Fremer Praises the newer 1200G
Michael Fremer the critic of older Technics 1200s praises the newer 1200g
https://www.analogplanet.com/content/technics-direct-drive-sl-1200g-turntable
https://www.analogplanet.com/content/technics-direct-drive-sl-1200g-turntable
54 responses Add your response
| Post removed |
Why the original Technics owner should look for an ugly clone made by Pioneer for pro market? Any old Technics can be upgraded by the owner. Technics invented this design and it’s a legend! Other companies just makes clones of this design, they can not make their own design, they do clones of Technics. Why? Pioneer made some nice DD turbtables in the 70s, they are unique, but now they are selling clones of Technics on the dj market. This is weird! Now we have a much better Technics made by Technics in 2017, why do we need a clone of an old Technics made by Pioneer? Everyone needs Mr. Fremer’s review to understand which turntable is good or bad ? Michael Fremer should tell you this ? |
I also have a Pioneer PLX1000 that I bought brand new - $700. I have a Denon 103R on it. And it sounds just fine! Made in Japan, too! I can't hear any "cogging" with it - contrary to what some "golden ears" will claim!The Pioneer PLX 1000 is made in China, not Japan, in a Hanpin factory. Better to buy a used Technics 1200 IMO. |
The Pioneer PLX will certainly keep up with a used 1200. I've handled both and the Pioneer actually felt like the higher quality table. It even had less visible platter runout. But don't take my word for it (or that of any YouTube amateur), compare them yourselves. The 1200G is in a whole other league for reasons that Fremer clearly pointed out. |
@helomech i did actually used Pioneer for a few hrs, it is made like a clone of Technics to make it comfortable for DJs got used to Technics. Pioneer making them primary for deejays like all their gear nowadays (mixers, cdj players etc). They are marketed as a professional turntable for dj use. This is the ONLY reason they are clones of Technics design visually. It’s a tool for professionals, designed to the price tag to make it affordable (and made in china). If someone like the OP already has Technics SL1200mkII there is NO single reason to buy Pioneer! It is pretty easy to re-wire Technics, to replace footers, to buy KAB silicone fluid damper for tonearm or completely replace the stock arm. External power supply also available. Why Pioneer ??? |
Is Pioneer really any more of a clone of an old Technics than a new Technics is? Just because it has a Technics sticker on it does not mean it is a direct descendant of something from the past. I wonder how many engineers that invented the original worked on the latest model? As many as at Pioneer? Visual design rights may be something to talk about on the companies level, but that is another topic. Once it is not an original, everything could be considered a clone. 2018 Honda Civic is a clone of a Mercedes from 1886, or whatever year it was. We need a Pioneer clone in 2017 because it is $700 vs. the cheapest Technics which is $1700. Many people are happy that 2018 Honda Civic exists as they find 2018 Mercedes a bit expensive. I am not saying that Technics is not somehow better, but there are many other options in both price ranges so we are really comparing them based only on the looks in this thread. If you change all that chakster mentioned on an older SL 1200, is it still a Technics SL 1200? I guess, platter and dust cover do count, too. I am not saying you should not change it, just a thought of how many parts can you change and still consider an item what it was called initially. $4000 is quite a bit of money even if you are in the upper 10% of earners, as roberjerman suggested. In fact, it is a hefty price even for a top 1%. We may pretend that it is all fine, but these things, pretty much everything mentioned around this forum, is inconveniently expensive. It is just that some decide that for them it is worth it and there is nothing wrong with it. But $4000 is a lot for an electric motor, metal tube, and a round metal plate. |
@roberjerman Actually the Pioneer is not manufactured in Japan. It is a Chinese product from Hanapin built to spec for Pioneer. There is much debate on how close it would come to a genuine SL1200. According to the writing on the box it is "designed by Pioneer in Japan Made in China". Regards Neonknight |
I have no idea how close Pioneer is to genuine SL 1200. I do not know which one would be genuine in the first place. There have been many SL 1200 models by now. There are even a few current ones, ranging from $1700 to more than double of that. I wonder if, in case Pioneer does not fare well when compared to the cheapest current Technics, it is even a fair comparison. It is almost 2.5 times cheaper. Compared to a current genuine expensive SL 1200 it is almost 6 (six) times cheaper. If the difference is obvious, is it Japan vs. China issue, "Pioneer clone" vs. "genuine Technics", or "more affordable" vs. "it costs a lot" issue? I do agree they look almost the same, but they do not seem to be in the same category at all. For those who just read the thread, but have not had a chance to lay their hands on the Pioneer 1000, it is quite a substantial piece. Yes, you can feel it is not a million-dollar product, but it is put together quite well and screwed tight. If money is not an issue, I would go with Technics. If money was tighter, I would not mind buying Pioneer. By the way, has anyone noticed that it is relatively hard to find these new Technics turntables for sale, not to mention for a listen? Or maybe I am looking at all the wrong places. |
@chakster What does it matter that Pioneer markets to DJs? The table is no less good for it. One might even argue that it’s benefited from it in the form of greater torque and mass over the 1200s. It also has a damped tonearm and detachable cables. Won’t find that on the old 1200s. Further, all the KAB mods can fit the PLX. The 1200 didn’t originate as a DJ turntable but Technics was certainly selling them for that purpose by the time the MK5 arrived. Hmmm....let me think...a brand new Pioneer with warranty for $700, or a beat up 1200 that’s been molested by a half dozen wannabe disc jockeys for $800+?...hmmm that’s a tough one... |
Well, with all my reapect, i’m really tired about all that Technics talks on audiogon. I’ve been using my pair of SL1210mkII for more than 20 years for my professional needs, it was modded to deliver much better sound that stock version. I’ve had SP-20 and still got my reference SP-10mkII. Nothing wrong with a DJ or broadcast turntables made by Technics. Worldwide DJ standard for professionals is Technics, not Pioneer or any other clone of Technics with some minor tweaks. Technics SL1200mkII has enough torque and nobody needs more torque. Companies like Vestax released higher torque dj turntables, but no one can beat Technics as this is the opriginal product with legendary status that all of them trying to copy. The marked was flooded when old SL1200/1210mkII and higher models were discontinued. But now Technics returned to the business with a great success, the SL1200GR is about $1700 new (Made in Japan quality) and finally suitable not only for DJs, but also for Audiophiles as an entry level to the new Technics sound. Also available SL1200G and GAE, SP-10R and SL1000R for the most demanding audiophiles. And the more inportant in this thread: The OP already bought a Technics, but some users talking about Pioneer for some reason. I just don’t understand it. KAB offers many inexpensive mods, including the one to dump the tonearm inside (which is the cheapest). P.S. Pioneer made their DJ turntables when majority of the DJs are not into vinyl anymore, they are using vinyl controllers like serato/tracktor to play digital files. Some still play real vinyl. But for $1700 Technics with SL1200GR can satisfy both (audiophiles and vinyl deejays). Imagine the price for them on the used marked soon (at least 30% cheaper) and if you prefer Pioneer (made in china) then i don't know what to say. |
chakster"Well, with all my reapect, i’m really tired about all that Technics talks on audiogon." Well then maybe you should take a nap and then return when you are rested refreshed and recharged and are able to offer information opinion or facts that are meaningful and substantive rather than just repeat repeat repeat the same few things again and again we get it you love your Technics turntables and you have many of them! |
It's hard to imagine than 1200G is better than SP-10mkIII, maybe SP-10R is better or equal, but the 1200G is not Technics reference turntable in the production line, while the SP-10mkIII was the reference for such a long time.In practice the SL1200G is the most speed stable turntable in production right now. The initial release specs on the SP10R don't show a big difference between the two. The SL1200G is a complete from-the-ground-up redesign and only shares its appearance with the older SL1200s. Its a very well-thought out design; is more speed stable and has considerably more damping and a very dead plinth. IMO they should have made it look different if just to avoid the obvious confusion people have thinking is nearly the same as its predecessors and look-alikes. |
@chakster At no point in this thread has the OP yet mentioned that he bought a Technics. HR of Stereophile conducted side by side tests of a mkii 1200 and PLX-1000, using the same carts. His conclusion is that they're equals in performance. So other than the 1200’s proven track record of reliability, there’s little reason to not consider the PLX over a Technics in that price range. Then consider that the only 1200s you’ll find for $700 anymore will be ones that have had a rough life, so cosmetically damaged that they’re not really worth modding. As I mentioned earlier, I’ve handled both decks and there’s absolutely nothing that indicates a mkii 1200 is of better quality, If anything, it’s the other way around. If you’ve experienced the PLX as you claim, you’d know this as well. I think you continually lambaste the Pioneer as you do because deep down you know it’s the equal of your precious 1200s. |
roberjerman, I think that both of these turntables have their place in the market. I have no experience with new SL 1200 (GR, G, GAE), but, from what I hear, they are impeccably put together. I have experience with Pioneer, a friend of mine has it and I have played with it, in fact got it out of the box and set it up for him. It is great but if I wanted to be picky I could find a few things that feel imperfect. Platter somehow feels light and is a little bit, just the tinniest little bit, off balance. If you watch closely, you can see the edge going up and down slightly. I have no idea if Technics is better than that. By the way, it does not influence the sound no matter how hard I listen. Pioneer can surely produce decent turntable for $700 and I am sure that Technics could do the same. There may be some additional expense incurred on fit, finish, and actual materials used and price of labor (China vs. Japan). There may also be some cost in research and all that goes in before the production. I also do not see too many ads for Pioneer, but have ran across many for Technics and that must cost something. Lastly, as in most of the products on any kind of market and especially for products as, realistically, unnecessary as a turntable is in 2018, there is a price inflation for cache of the brand and perceived higher value. In a sense, cashing in on better material, more adds, "fancier-perceived" product, and coolness of lineage from 1970s. It happens in all kinds of products so it happens here, too. Louis Vuitton bag will not carry books any better than a $20 bag from Chinatown store, but it costs a bit more. Both have their clientele. One thing that seems to me to be going in favor of anybody buying a Pioneer is that it can be easily bought. Technics is somehow missing in stores, even websites. I would like to see and feel one, but no luck. |
@helomech actually the OP @vinny55 started new (or posted in every old) thread about Technics on audiogon to justify his new purchase - the old Technics SL1200mkII, so he’s got this turntable, what he can do now is to upgrade some parts or even replace stock tonearm. It’s better to advice him how to mod this Technics, than just advice him to buy Pioneer because it’s equal to the Technics which he alsready bought not so long ago. |
Companies like Vestax released higher torque dj turntables, but no one can beat Technics as this is the original product with legendary status that all of them trying to copy.I am not trying to start any fire and have never even heard of Vestax, but this sentence implies that Vestax already beat Technics. At least when it comes to torque. I doubt than anyone truly needs more torque than 40-year-old Technics DD turntable has, but still....Vestax has more. But for $1700 Technics with SL1200GR can satisfy both (audiophiles and vinyl deejays).I may be seriously interested in 1200GR so do not dismiss me just yet. However, I have been asking on forums, without much success, to find out what makes a turntable "audiophile". Why would this one satisfy DJs and "audiophiles" while some other one would not? I am trying to learn as I see these "audiophile" statements thrown around a lot, but no substantial answer. atmasphere, are we the only two people out there who think a new design would have been a better idea? |
I am not arguing about which sounds better, I have no clue about it, but was just referring to that sentence about the torque. It was probably written quickly so it ended up clumsy, but the fact is that Vestax has a higher torque and beats Technics at that particular thing while the sentence claimed the opposite. That is all. I did not really think deeper than what is written. |
@glupson Why would this one satisfy DJs and "audiophiles" while some other one would not? Pitch control is the key for DJing, that’s why Technics SL1200mkII became DJ standard. You will never find any DJ turntable without pitch control fader. It can be 8% or event higher in both direction to slow down or speed up one tune to another to mix/blend them right. The tempo is the key when few hundred people are dancing infront of you at the disco. Old school DJs used a microphone between the tracks, but since the 70s DJs developed their skills to mix the records. The skills depends on genre of music, but the pitch is necesary to fine tune the records. Technics released pitch control as a fader in SL1200mkII (not as a knob like it was before on their earlier models). This is the reason why modern DJs can NOT djing on any Hi-End turntable, there is no pitch control fader to quickly adjust the speed of the record to mix them together in tempo. This is the answer why High-End/Audiophile SL1200GAE is still a perfect "DJ turntable". The best coreless direct drive turntables like the Victor TT-101 has lower torque than Technics. Victor has an electronic pitch control +/- buttons, but nor manual pitch control fader like Technics. My Luxman PD-444 has lower torque that Technics, but i like Luxman much better for home listening. No pitch control, just stable 33/45 In Audiophiles world the speed stability is the key, not the torque. Victor TT-101 direct drive has an ultimate speed stability, but lower torque. BTW: Technics SP-10 mkIII has the highest torque ever among any Direct Drive as far as i know! So the Technics is still unbeatable in terms of torque when it comes to reference models, but there is not pitch control on the reference models. What is OK for audiophiles is not acceptable for professional DJs and vice versa. |
I got that part of why SL1200 was embraced by DJs. In fact, I mentioned something along those lines in another recent thread about it. More of a question would be what qualifies a turntable as an "audiophile". If it is speed stability, that should not be that hard to achieve in 2018 and most of the relatively decent ones (not little plastic boxes rumbling their way) should be "audiophile". In my, very layman, view, torque should not have that much impact after the speed is finally achieved. I admit, I might have just written something entirely stupid out of almost utter ignorance of turntable technology. Now, when you mentioned Luxman, I have my eye on their latest turntable just for the looks. The only reason why I have not bought it is the belt drive. I am sure it is great, but the idea of having to change belt is not that appealing no matter how simple the procedure it is. I really do not care if it does or does not have torque or if it is "audiophile" or not. I have a feeling that all these machines actually perform very close to each other. Of course, after a certain threshold of quality. |
I recently decided to treat myself with a retirement turntable that I could live with without further upgrades. I had a Marantz TT 15S1, made by Clearaudio. The Marantz was a very nice budget table, but I've heard enough better tables to want an upgrade. I bought the Technics SL 1200G a few months ago, and that was IMO the best choice as my last table. The weight of the sound matched the other great tables I've heard and wanted. No more belts. I can clearly hear the speed stability on sustained piano. Super easy to setup and operate. I love being able to swap head shells to use different carts. History suggests it won't break. Worth every penny. |
@glupson Now, when you mentioned Luxman, I have my eye on their latest turntable just for the looks. The only reason why I have not bought it is the belt drive. I am sure it is great, but the idea of having to change belt is not that appealing no matter how simple the procedure it is. I really do not care if it does or does not have torque or if it is "audiophile" or not. I have a feeling that all these machines actually perform very close to each other. Of course, after a certain threshold of quality. The OLD luxman reference PD-444 motor was made by MICRO SEIKI and it is Direct Drive. I would never use any belt drive. I think you're right that all reference turntables perform very close to each other, some of them are just practically better, but it's personal preferences, i can swap and adjust the tonearm on PD-444 in 3 minutes, i need maybe another 15 minutes to made absolute alignment of the cartridge with Feickert protractor. No need to drill any holes, screw something to the turntable plinth with that Luxman PD-444. Tonearm and cartridge combination is much more important on those top class Direct Drives, i can not stick to one tonearm, i want to compare the arms on the same turntable. The engineer was a genius in my opinion. And designer was also genius as this is the most elegant DD turntable. I just love when everything made right (usability, design, quality) for reasonable price. Luxman has a long history since 1925. And reputation is Micro Seiki is a top notch too. I was in love with Technics for 23 years, but now i prefer Luxman PD-444 to any Technics i have owned including the SP-10mkII. |
How about some specifications for the PLX1000? Fit and finish are one aspect of "value", but what about the technology built into the turntable? We know that the new SL1200GAE/GR/G is different from the old SL1200 in every possible way, except, sadly, appearance. And all the differences are on the plus side of the equation. For example, does the PLX1000 use a coreless motor, as do the newest Technics'? You can't argue a comparison between the PLX1000 and the SL1200 completely in the abstract. It becomes more clear with every "Technics thread" on this forum that Technics made a horrible marketing decision, or rather two horrible marketing decisions, by first building their new turntable as a replica of the old SL1200, and then giving it the same model name. Thankfully, the 10R at least has that "R" to distinguish it from all the old SP10s, and the appearance is modernized enough to make it instantly distinguishable from an old SP10 Mk2 or Mk3. |
chakster ... all reference turntables perform very close to each other, some of them are just practically better, but it's personal preferences ...I agree completely. The very best turntables sound strikingly similar, independent of whether they are belt, direct or idler drive. And - although it annoys some when I observe this - the best phono playback systems sound remarkably digital. That is, they are free from noise, speed variations, environmental disturbances ... |
glupson, "are we the only two people out there who think a new design would have been a better idea?" No, in fact you are not. Shortly after the SL1200GAE was introduced I posted a critique titled "What was Technics thinking?". For those who bothered to read about them it was obvious that Technics spent a great deal of time and effort in designing their new line up of turntables. But not everyone bothered to read about that. Instead they jumped to conclusions based upon similarities in model numbers or physical appearance and assumed Technics simply pulled a major rip-off with higher priced offerings. In actuality, Technics went to the extreme of recruiting a couple of the technicians from retirement who had worked on the famed SP-10 Mk 2 and 3 and EPA-100 arm to assist in the new upgrades. I still believe Technics' decisions lead to confusion. However it is similar to the false suggestion the SL1200 was a DJ table. That was released in the '70s as a consumer product. The role of the DJs was to embrace that table in the late '80s and '90s and their demand kept it in production. It's easy to jump to conclusions if you don't bother with the facts. |
Serious shoppers hopefully aren’t so shallow that they avoid the 1200G because it looks like a cheaper version. I never owned one of the older Technics 1200 machines, but I was certainly aware of what they were, and what the quality level was. I had no trouble understanding that the new 1200G was quite different and worth the price. Buying it based on its merits at its price was an easy decision for me. I’m also not hung up on looks as much as I want functionality and quality. My electronics are ugly but they work best for my system. I’m not trying to impress anybody, but I do like the high level of fit and finish on this table. Anyone who avoids the new 1200G because of its looks is only missing out on a great option. Those who are blind to the improvements and think Technics has priced this new table too high aren’t really potential buyers and just like to throw mud. Fremer correctly suggests that Technics couldn’t have brought this table to market for "only" $4,000 if they had to craft a totally new design. |
@pryso since the ealy 80s the SL1200mkII was adopted by professional deejays and became industry standard and still is the industry standard worldwide. ONLY bacause of this FACT this particular model has been sold in 3 000 000 copies like NO OTHER turntable in the world. Some manufacturers tried to jump in to release something similar, but nodoby cares about it, except kids who asked their moms to buy them a dj turntable and if they didn’t started with a Technics they always wanted Technics (and bought them when they could afford it later on). Other companies only tried to release something cheaper, but not better, and it fact the majority of the professionals never asked for anything better, really. Technics sold 3 000 0000 copies of SL1200mkII because of the DJs, Clubs, Radiostations in the 80s,90s and early 00s ... and even today people re-sell used Technics very well for $250-500 They are still in demand for professionals, because it’s a cult status product, the legend. Only DJs made this turntable legendary for millions, not an audiophiles or hi-fi enthusiasts. All DJ mixes, radioshows, video showcases recorded with those old Technics SL1200mkII. And every kid who would like to became an artist/dj was dreaming about a pair of SL1200mkII (when vinyl was main format). Technics was a sponsor of the DMC (Disco Mix Club) championships worldwide, Technics supplied turntables, mixers to those championships. Audiophiles has nothing to do (or very little) in popularisation of these legendary model, because they are not a celebrities, not an artists or opinion makers. You can repead each time that it was not designed for DJs (and you’re absolutely right), but this is iconic DJ turntable and you can’t argue with it. Don’t forget that any vinyl DJ needs a 2 turntables, not just one. The price does matter. Also the majority of todays new generation of DJs are on digital, they don’t even buy vinyl. The SL1200 GAE, G or GR are designed for Audiophiles and they are the target audience for Technics. But they couldn’t ingnore the fact that they sold 3 000 000 copies of the predecessor with very similar look, when Technics desided to return to turntable manufacturing again. As we can see almost every audiophile would like to buy this new Technics. So now everybody happy! |
chakster, you may have overshot the mark a bit in your reply. I was certainly not denying the extent of the utilization of the Technics SL1200 series by DJs. My basic point was to object to those who claim they were designed and marketed (originally) for DJs. Correct or not, that carries an implication they are not then suitable for "serious" music lovers for vinyl playback. So I've read, as you likely have too, many critiques that discredit the SL1200 series because they think of it only as a DJ table. In actuality I expect many of the qualities that make those tables attractive to DJs such as speed consistency and build quality should also appeal to "audiophiles". Anyway, they certainly can be thanked for keeping them in production long after they might have otherwise been discontinued. So I think we hold similar views. |
vinyl, in my opinion that "hatred" is misguided. Those who have been in this hobby a long time such as myself will remember the advertisements from a certain belt-drive table manufacturer in Glasgow who criticized direct drive tables for cogging. I'll admit I drank the kool-aid and abandoned interest in DD systems after that. At least for many years. But then I realized a few important points. First, I'd never experienced cogging in any DD I owned or heard in friend's systems. Second, recordings which contained long sustains such as with piano sounded more natural on DD tables than all but the most expensive belt-drive examples. And third, few tables produced the energy and drive of the music like a decent DD example. All this is not to suggest that decent sound can't be produced by a belt-drive system. But I find advantages with DD which tip the scales for me. |
I prefer DD. Mechanically an elastic belt is just an inherently bad design to begin with - it needs an insanely heavy platter to be stable in pitch. Pitch changes are extremely discernable to our ears. It is also possible to design a good DD motor with low vibration that is at least as good as a belt (in addition to the solid pitch advantage). I am perfectly happy with a Pioneer PL 550 like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfrQ7Ylowr0&feature=share Great DD TT with upgraded veneer. Mine is in magnolia burl to match my speakers. It is inexpensive and even though cost is not an issue for me, I just really like the clean simple classic elegant look compared to Rega or more industrial steampunk looking designs like Transistor Tourbillon or Triangle Art. Funny but I don’t like the straight tone arm either - the S shape is just so sexy and elegant. I also think a dust cover is actually quite useful and practical on a TT - ;-) |
atmasphere6,176 posts05-08-2018 I have a 1210Mk5 and 2 x1210Mk5g. I love the iconic look. To my eyes the big attraction of the new models is that they have retained this look. I have never heard anyone getting confused, and I bet you didn't get confused either. |
I’ve had an SL1200G since January and continue to be amazed at the way it plays music. I don’t like the DJ brutal looks & only bought it to use various spare carts that have been building up over the past 40+ years. I’d sold a bunch of hifi gear and got nearly 30% discount on the Technics so it seemed a no brainer at the time. I’ve only used belt driven tables in the past, all around the same price point, or more expensive (Linn, Clearaudio, Michell, Rega) & have since sold two of these as sounding inferior to the Technics - rather flabby & imprecise by comparison. The way this thing produces bass in particular is simply outstanding - taut, layered and within a soundstage which is by far the most holographic my system has produced (with the right source material). Nothing else I own produces bass of this quality.... digital or analogue. A friend & I did a back to back with his 1200 Mk5 (same headshell/cart/phono/cables) & the new table sounds considerably different - more sophisticated is the simplest way I can sum it up. He closed his eyes and reached out at one point, claiming that he could touch & put his hand behind everything, imaging is that sharp (no female singers present in that soundstage, fortunately!). I have a feeling that pitch control is contributing to my own enthusiasm as this is the only DD I have owned & I now plan to keep only one of my former harem of belt drives. |
I purchased the SL 1200GR ($1800) at my local Technics distributor here in my area (south FL), which I paired with my Goldring MM 1042 cartridge. I change the stock headshell with a Yamamoto Acoustic craft Carbon fiber head shell HS-4 NEW that I bought from Japan. This TT replaced a Music Hall 5.1 that was paired with the Goldring cartridge. |
@robert_1 After I listened to the Technic SL 1200GR paired with my cartridge: Goldring MM 1042 while listening to my mobile fidelity album of Santana Abraxas I knew right there and then that I did not need to spent $4000 on the 1200G. The difference was so minimal (a little more open sound stage, and bass) that is not worthy, unless you are too anal retentive Good news, Robert |
...My criticism: $4000 is still a lot of moolah - unless you are in the top 10% of wage earners! So I will just make do with my vintage 1200 (maybe get a new mat!). The SL1200 debuted in 1968 for about $350. Adjusted for inflation, that's about $2534 in today's money. Given the improvements in features, build quality, and performance, $4K for the new version isn't so out of line, and the price of the SL1200 GR is spot-on, adjusted for inflation. |
