Bingo! Your mama and your mom and your mother are oft found more in the ‘burbs.
Talk but not walk?
Hi Guys
This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
thanks, be polite
Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net
2,164 responses Add your response
Can we also have Audiopoints guys join? I have popcorn ready. After cables and fuses, this is a refreshing thread. Nobody really expects much but yet it is informative in some way. Not to belittle anyone's accomplishment, but a regular sociable high-school kid may have a few thousand likes on Facebook. Unless it gets into millions, nothing is impressive these days. |
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Very cool to see Roger Modjeski posting on Audiogon! I've owned several of Roger's products and was one of his dealers many moons ago. We as well featured Roger's products at some of our Trade Show rooms. Would be great to see more designers up on this forum. I told Audiogon there's no need for this thread as more designers post on the forum. If that happened (designers posting here) the trolls would eventually find somewhere else to play. Hope everyone has a wonderful Thanksgiving! And for those wanting to visit me on Facebook |
So Folks, take a look at this thread http://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/the-future-of-audio-amplification This is the latest example of "Talk but not Walk?". Several of us are talking about different types of amplifiers and our experiences. There’s a lot of good sharing, and then there is " " (who has been called out on this many times) making statements without actually "doing" the experience side of things. I don’t see anyone minding that folks have differing opinions based on what they know has happened for them, but as you can see we pretty much all questioned " " about making statements as fact when, in fact, he has zero or limited experience with the topic. Why fake it? In a hobby of doing and gentlemen exchanging ideas there are those that "fake" knowledge making statements like "snake oil" when that’s the furthest from the truth. Shouting "snake oil" is only you raising the flag "you have no experience" in most cases, or the alternative you can’t hear the results of change isn’t it? That’s certainly the flag that raises for me. If you haven’t walked why talk? I don’t think anyone here mind "benchers" (hobbyist who are into the testing more then the listening). Some of us are benchers, some are theorist, some collectors of equipment brands, some casual listeners, and some more serious. Some are even just here wasting time as they have stated on this thread. But the OP here is why, in any of these cases, fake it? Why act like you know something when you haven’t explored it for yourself? The other part is, why get upset? We should hand out pins and bumper stickers "don’t get too close Angry Audiophile on board". Michael Green |
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Hi Elizabeth Have you ever started a thread on your system? If so, what's the link? http://tuneland.forumotion.com/f3-home-audio-systems If you ever want to start one on TuneLand above is the page. I know of one member of TuneLand that would really get into your setup and of course there are many readers. Your an easy read and I would bet one of the favorite posters here on Agon. It would be cool for you to have a section of your own where you gave your thoughts on audio and folks could come visit with you on specifics. I would love to have that thread or section on TuneLand. Magnepan are great listening tools, iconic. There is a certain class Maggie owners bring to the hobby. I not only like the speaker and the speaker's history, but also enjoy the Magnepan owner attitude. Magnepan is part of the HEA, but more, is a true "Audiophile" product. Michael |
A lot has already been said about speaker location and room acoustics and why trial and error - move a little, listen a little - is not (rpt not) a particularly effective way to determine the optimum location for speakers in a room. What is needed is a comprehensive method that allows for an on-going room treatment program and the ability to change speaker locations periodically to account for new room acoustics treatment and other changes to the system. That method must work for ANY type or make of speaker in any listening room, with or without room treatment. And that method must also be able to account for improvements to room treatments, equipment changes/mods, tweaks.Trying to determine the ideal speaker locations by trial and error - move a little, listen a little - is like trying to solve a set of n simultaneous equations in n+ x unknowns. The best you can hope for is finding local maximums. When you Control the Mail you Control Information. - Newman |
You can make all the adjustments you want and reach perfection. Then you are proud and call a few of your friends to hear it. Once they enter the room, your previous adjustments become, for lack of a better word, incorrect. Now, someone could start accounting for that and making suggestions how to set the room up if you are alone, if there is three of you, if one is very skinny and one is "plump" (the word I try to use since Michael Green mentioned it here a few months ago, so well-placed in one funny exchange), and so on. It does not equal "snake oil" but may equal "chasing your tail". In theory, any change in the room will yield difference in sound. In practice, if that bothers you, it is time to take a walk. A real walk, not "walk/talk" kind of walk. |
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Readers There has been many example threads produced recently that should be looked at as far as "talk but not walk?" that I told you would appear, here is one http://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/the-invention-of-measurements-and-perception The question you might want to ask yourselves is "do you want to take advice from this forum"? |
Here is the type of brilliance, genius, and enlightenment that is on that thread this one from the guy who studied electrical engineering at Cheech & Chong University: kosst_amojan"In the strictest scientific sense, there is no such thing as music, or sound, or color, or hot or cold, or pain or pleasure. They’re abstractions produced by the brain to allow consciousness to interpret them." Do not dare doubt, question, or challenge this sky-high thinker because he will insult, degrade, and humiliate you to the best of his ability which is unfortunately for him not very much! |
well I must have accidentally assembled a perfectly tuned system WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING WHAT I WAS DOING!!!! Almost every song I listen to on it sounds amazingly good. (unfortunately there really are a few poorly mastered recordings and no amount of "tuning" can change that). And my system is not what most would consider "high end". Yamaha Aventage receiver, Polk Rtia5 speakers,Oppo 203 CDP, B&W powered sub,Panasonic 50 inch H.D. plasma tv. I bought the last plasma on the market. And it's no longer being made. The picture on it is awesome. I'm not naturally inclined to go down the rabbit hole of stuff like "tuning" or "low mass".Neither of these makes sense to me. I just need a system that looks good, sounds good, and then I can forget about gear and just enjoy the music.But I do plan on (someday) getting either Martin Logan ESL's or Maggies. Maybe someone here can suggest which would sound better? |
Hi Hombre It's cool that your system sounds great! I'm sure everyone here is giving you a thumbs up, including me. However there's something I'm not getting from your post. If your system is a "perfectly tuned system", why would you be planning on changing your speakers? I guess I'm not following you here. Why move away from "perfect" I guess people will be asking you. Anyway, nothing like a well tuned system where almost every song sounds amazingly good. I see this is your second post, enjoy the forum! mg |
I have heard electrostatic speakers in the past and my experience of them is that nothing else can match them in terms of detail and transparency. The design principal of them seems good to me. Just as my new Honda Accord seems an excellent car to me,but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to have a BMW. |
It seems common sense to me that the driver which is utilized in an electrostatic would be superior to a dynamic (cone) speaker in every way.Only thing is, I'm told I would need a very good amp because ESL's present a very difficult load for an amp to drive. So my lowly receiver probably couldn't cut it. |
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I believe I said that I HAVE heard electrostatic speakers.I do plan on hearing magnepan speakers if I can find a place where they have them. And the difficult load thing with ESL’s is established fact, not "made up because I read about it". And not "theory with no meaning" but precisely the opposite. |
Having owned a speaker utilizing the EMIM/EMIT drivers Elizabeth likes (the Infinity RS-1b), Magneplanars (Tympani T-I, T-Id, and currently T-IVa), and ESL’s (currently original QUADS, aka 57’s), there is a contemporary loudspeaker I suggest auditioning that provides advantages of them all and then some---the Eminent Technology LFT-8b. A better speaker over-all imo than the RS-1b (I sold my pair back to Brooks Berdan), low sensitivity/efficiency like Maggies but at the more tube-amp friendly nominal impedance of 8 ohms (the magnetic-planar m/t drivers themselves are 11 ohms, for those bi-amping. A pair of Atma-Sphere M60 amps would be great with them), fairly low bass response from the sealed 8" dynamic woofer, higher maximum SPL capability than many ESL’s (certainly the QUADS), very low coloration and high timbral accuracy, high transparency (distortion levels approaching that of ESL’s), easy to integrate into a room. All for $2499/pr, barely more than the Maggie MG1.7i, less than half the price of the MG3.7i. The best kept secret in hi-fi. |
@hombre If you are interested in considering planars, I'd encourage you to expand your shopping list a bit and add Sound Lab, Sanders and Analysis Audio for audition. I am biased as a Sound Lab owner, but after having owned Quads and spent much time with many Maggies and listened a few times to the others, I think it would be worth your while. FWIW, I agree that in general you do need a pretty beefy amp with most of these guys. I am a bit surprised by @elizabeth 's comment that her 20.7s are easy to drive. Maybe they have been improved in this regard, but the 20.5 and 20.1s I'm more familiar with both benefit from plenty of power and current, and relatively suffer without them. I know Sound Lab has also gone to great lengths to make their newer models easier to drive than my vintage thirsty, hungry A3s. If budget is an issue, Sanders makes the Magnetech amps designed specifically for electrostatics, and they provide pretty great value/$ in that regard. Cheers, Spencer |
I just read a white paper written by a Roger Sanders! Is this the same Sanders you mention? The paper gives a very good explanation of why most amps won’t work with ESL’s. He says that ESL’s act as a capacitor while conventional speakers act like a resistor.This means that the highly reactive load they present to the amp tends to make most amplifiers unstable because they send electrical current back to the amp unlike conventional speakers which "use up" the electrical current by converting it to heat.And he says watts per channel don't mean anything with ESL's because they don't operate on watts, they operate on voltage.Also I’m pretty sure magnaplanars also present a difficult load.Are Sound Lab speakers more like maggies or ESL’s? |
Elizabeth, you rock Girl!!! Hombre I think you've landed on some great folks to help you on your quest! This thread in particular was made so we as a community can get to that practical experience so many of the posters here are able to supply based on their actual doing of the process. That's golden in my book and does the hobby (bdp would rightly correct me saying lifestyle) up righteously. The "walkers" here you will find have some awesome collective experience. It's not that any always agree but the fact that these guys & gals are able to share beyond quoting someone else or true or false possible "what if" theories. I think this thread has taken on the meaning it was meant to have. My thought is, a forum like what is happening here on Agon has more value than even an audiophile magazine when the community is harnessed and each is able to share at a "doing" level. This doesn't mean that any of us will stick to our, for now, opinions forever. But, what it does is gives real accounts based on real life conditions, both historically and modern innovations. Reading the last three post Elizabeth, bdp24 and sbank wrote, you can just see the experience dripping off their words. To me this is what this is about. As a collective we can do so much more. this is rich! mg |
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Hi Spencer I've owned many of the speakers above, at least one from each camp except for Gale's latest speakers (I'm sure they're great too). On top of the lists above I've owned many other panel type brands. I too have a special place in my ears for Roger West's products. I've owned the A2, A3 and Dynastat and to this day am pulled into a room when Sound Labs are playing. I even did a couple of my CES rooms using the A3. As a note of audiophile history my RoomTune design was developed in a room with Roger's speakers. Other speakers were involved too, but the Sound Lab/Room interface was the actual room out of my 9 listening rooms at the time that hooked me on knowing I needed to design RoomTune. As with all speaker rooms, the speakers and the room are one and can not be separated. The Sound Lab is one of the best examples of this and the rooms I have tuned to Roger's designing have been some of my favorite audio adventures. The Sound Lab even helped me decide on some of my RoomTune TunePak shapes and sizes. That unmistakable tone to Roger's speakers is like no other. The tone is easy to change but that certain hollow halo sound that the Sound Lab can make is unique (in a positive way) and credit to their character. The richness in the body of acoustical instruments is a trait I have stolen from his sound. It's that sound inside of the instrument that Sound Lab does so well. You hear the baffle board or casing of the instrument, then that air inside and then the back or other side of the acoustical instrument, then of course the cushion of air around. Is there a better panel type speaker for this, I don't know but Dr. West nailed it. It's not an automatic trip but tuned it's a slice of heaven. MG |
I don’t want to leave out Maggies and the others either. When I read people trying to criticize the sound of these great speaker designs I shake my head, because for those of us in the know, we have actually lived with the exchange and interaction these have with the room. Once you have not only learned but have created the interaction yourself there’s a knowledge (wisdom) that puts you in a club that goes way beyond "talk". Listening to a Maggie setup incomplete for the skilled Maggie listener is like ringing the dinner bell for us. Why is simple, we’ve been there. Those triggers go off in our heads and our mind’s eye is redesigning the room cause we know "that" sound is there and it’s just a matter of unleashing it on the room’s acoustics. This is the one place I say to Hombre "be careful". If you are just going to throw your speaker into the room you may not get that magic you mentioned earlier. You could very well place a speaker in the room and get that magic or you could just as easily open a can of worms that might take you out of the fun listening game for months or even years. That’s why I asked, if you’ve got perfect consider the risk of moving away from perfect to something that might require some serious adjusting. Again it may not, but I’m glad to see real (active) users jumping in. They could very well save the day for you, as well as talking to the designer themselves. man, what a sport! MG |
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@kosst_amojan Your last post says more about you than the person you are aiming your flamethrower at, in this case MG. His questions get right to the heart of the matter at hand, and you failed to answer. To generalize about the sound of all planars is pretty worthless. To say you don't like them and mention that you almost bought a pair is pretty worthless. To say, "They don't sound realistic and they have serious dispersion and room interaction issues." is worse than worthless, it's just plain wrong and does a disservice to the OP. My Sound Labs sound more realistic to me than dozens of other speakers I've owned(e.g. Nolas, Silverlines, Vandersteens, Thiels, Von Schweikerts, Avalons, Quads, Alons, Merlins to name a few) and hundreds more I've demoed. When it comes to serious room dispersion and interaction issues, that varies widely by brand/model. Sure some are "head in a vice", like the old InnerSounds. But the Sound Labs have some of the best measured in room off-axis response you will find. Just a few days ago, a friend who does room acoustical analysis and treatment professionally was here measuring performance of the Sound Labs with his testing gear. He measured on and off-axis at 15, 30 & 45 degrees at 3ft, 5ft and listening position(12ft.) using his omni-mic and pc software. He told me that the off axis performance in room was better than most dynamic speakers and far superior to a pair of planar Apogee Stages + sub that he recently measured. Granted, this is in a treated room with a combo of bass traps, absorptive panels and diffusion set up in Live End/Dead End fashion as recommended by Dr. West at Sound Lab. Some of the results are attributable to the benefit of working on the room, but much of it is because Sound Labs and many other dipoles are less affected by side wall, floor and ceiling reflections than most other speakers. Granted, impact of the wall behind the speakers is great and the wall behind the listener does somewhat come into play. So you've got to attack the wall behind the planars with great amounts of absorption and ideally a bit of diffusion. That's a bit of my experience measuring and listening to planars. So instead of throwing shade at everyone, why don't you share what you've measured, what you actually listened to and what you learned from putting 2 + 2 together? That might actually help someone, including the OP. What I anticipate is a snarky reply belittling me or pretty much everyone. Please prove that assumption wrong. Cheers, Spencer |
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I sure miss my Soundlab M1 speakers. They were spooky real and so natural sounding. Very special speakers and I have owned many. I have to say they are at the very top of my list. So musical and meaty. However, thry just take over a room aesthetically. That is the only downside I can think of. I lost my dedicated room and just no way these will ever be in our living room. I will never forget the wonderful music they produced. |
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I've never had the opportunity to hear Maggies or Soundlabs,though I would love to after reading owners descriptions.If I ended up with a pair sounds like it would be quite the aesthetic challenge:)I like my living/listening room to look good and sound good.On the other hand it's pretty much a dedicated room now but furnished so any visitors will feel comfortable(I think:) |
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