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Talk but not walk?

Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


michaelgreenaudio

Showing 8 responses by hombre

hombre
87 posts
 
After wasting a couple hours reading through this entire thread I can confidently state that never before have I seen so many words devoted to so little substance.
hombre
87 posts
 
I have heard electrostatic speakers in the past and my experience of them is that nothing else can match them in terms of detail and transparency. The design principal of them seems good  to me. Just as my new Honda Accord seems an excellent car to me,but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to have a BMW.
hombre
87 posts
 
well I must have accidentally assembled a perfectly tuned system WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING WHAT I WAS DOING!!!! Almost every song I listen to on it sounds amazingly good. (unfortunately there really are a few poorly mastered recordings and no amount of "tuning" can change that). And my system is not what most would consider "high end". Yamaha Aventage receiver, Polk Rtia5 speakers,Oppo 203 CDP, B&W powered sub,Panasonic 50 inch H.D. plasma tv. I bought the last plasma on the market. And it's no longer being made. The picture on it is awesome. I'm not naturally inclined to go down the rabbit hole of stuff like "tuning" or "low mass".Neither of these makes sense to me. I just need a system that looks good, sounds good, and then I can forget about gear and just enjoy the music.But I do plan on (someday) getting either Martin Logan ESL's or Maggies. Maybe someone here can suggest which would sound better? 
hombre
87 posts
 
It seems common sense to me that the driver which is utilized in an electrostatic would be superior to a dynamic (cone) speaker in every way.Only thing is, I'm told I would need a very good amp because ESL's present a very difficult load for an amp to drive. So my lowly receiver probably couldn't cut it. 
hombre
87 posts
 
I believe I said that I HAVE heard electrostatic speakers.I do plan on hearing magnepan speakers if I can find a place where they have them. And the difficult load thing with ESL’s is established fact, not "made up because I read about it". And not "theory with no meaning" but precisely the opposite.
hombre
87 posts
 
I just read a white paper written by a Roger Sanders! Is this the same Sanders you mention? The paper gives a very good explanation of why most amps won’t work with ESL’s. He says that ESL’s act as a capacitor while conventional speakers act like a resistor.This means that the highly reactive load they present to the amp tends to make most amplifiers unstable because they send electrical current back to the amp unlike conventional speakers which "use up" the electrical current by converting it to heat.And he says watts per channel don't mean anything with ESL's because they don't operate on watts, they operate on voltage.Also I’m pretty sure magnaplanars also present a difficult load.Are Sound Lab speakers more like maggies or ESL’s?
hombre
87 posts
 
My only complaint about the speakers I've had is the tweeters.I've had Polks, B&W, ESS Heil ,(which had a high frequency driver called an "air motion transformer"), Infinity, JBL, (which sounded unlistenable because of their brightness) and I've heard lots of others. IMO the most difficult thing for a speaker to get right are the high frequencies.Every speaker I remember had the same kind of "gritty" sound at the very high frequencies.The only way I can think of to describe this sound is steel ball bearings rolling around in a steel frying pan.It's discernable in the sound of cymbals.Also in some electric guitars. I can't tell if this is caused by the tweeters or if it's an audible artifact of the digital recording and playback process.I don't remember hearing this distortion on the best analog systems I heard forty years ago. My friend had Quad electrostatics and a high-end TT, Audio Research amp and preamp, and the sound of his system was the only I remember that didn't feature this annoying distortion in the high frequencies. Maybe this is an inherent quality of digital? Or have I just not yet heard the right speakers? Has this distortion I'm describing been experienced by anyone else here?
hombre
87 posts
 
hi orpheus, yes I agree the Heil AMT speakers I had sounded excellent. Of all the speakers I heard back in the day they were my favorites. And that included the KEF 105 and the Dahlquist, the one with five drivers mounted without a box around them. I now have Polk Rtia5 speakers which I like for their smooth laid back quality although I know they are not the best speakers out there, they sound good enough for me. Very easy listening. I also have a pair of ELAC B6 speakers in a closet upstairs.In terms of sound quality for the dollar, these might be the best speaker on the market. Only 250.00 for the pair. TAS said they were the best buy in audio about five years ago and made them their economy speaker of the year. They did an interview in their mag with the designer, Andrew Jones. After reading the reviews in the audio press I bought the speakers.
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