Uber, you are a lost puppy dog. Is that funny enough for you?
Talk but not walk?
Hi Guys
This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
thanks, be polite
Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net
2,164 responses Add your response
Now you are just making yourself look more silly than usual... As I have said previously this thread always cheers me up but now for completely different reasons... thx GK! I honestly still do not fully understand the premise of the OP but I am also prepared to keep an open mind and possible see it first hand. Some with very closed minds cannot see jack. However in respect for MG rather than trash this thread , I will yet again unfollow it and converse with MG by email as he suggested. Have fun katie…... |
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geoffkait, "...circus is back in town."I suspected so. Your intimate knowledge of thoughts that some circus owner had made me wonder how long you worked in his institution. Was that the circus that exhibited unusual creatures? A woman with scales, Bearded woman, and so on? I have never been fond of circuses and have also felt bad for clowns. I extend that sympathy at this moment. You may not be a bad human after all. |
Michael Green, I will believe that those simple questions have been answered on half the pages here and will leave it at that. However, in case you have not noticed, at least half of the followers of this thread have not noticed those answers so far. It really does not matter, but it is not a bad idea to be aware of what is happening with the thread you started. |
Michael: After I last posted here I checked out your website to learn what this tuning stuff is all about. I see you have several approaches to optimizing the triad of audio elements. So we are alike in that I have sought my own version of "tuning" through the years, but my approach is very different than yours. My version of "tuning" is more focused on room treatment (absorption and diffusion) and speaker/listening position/placement. I am also a proponent of time and phase correct speakers with wide response drivers and 1st order crossovers. I am not into taking protective covers off of electronic components and placing such items on multilayer wood plinth stacks and girders that fill up the listening space. I’ll theorize that all the acoustic reflections you get off of all that stuff in the listening space are as impactive as any mechanical vibration mitigation. My theory, based on personal observations that are constantly evolving through trial and error, is that a good stand is very important, and for that reason I have enjoyed Pierre Sprey’s maple, steel and brass stands from Mapleshade. I was initially attracted to Pierre’s approach because his aerospace engineering background appealed to my interest in material sciences and control of resonance by design. It works. I have also heard Adona stands and was impressed. But ultimately, I would rather get to a point where my system sounds sufficiently enjoyable so that I can simply listen to music and forget about the hardware and more "tuning." In my mind, that’s still walking. Theory is mostly talking (one exception is subatomic nuclear physics math), but it should be based on the walking performed previously, otherwise, it’s simply conjecture and hand waving, and there’s nothing wrong with expressing an opinion. Experiments are the walk, no doubt, and if 5% of the time one learns something that advances understanding from pure experimentation, even if the result is no change, then that is informative. I don’t understand your approach and why you "walk" the way you do with your experiments. Perhaps a little about the basis of this here would be informative to those of us curious to know what is the scientific/engineering/acoustic grounding of some of your configurations and constructions? Why do you think they work from a physical standpoint? WHat exactly is vibrating, the transformer? A platform is not going to stop that. I also respectfully disagree with you about your use of the term "audio code." Audio is analog; there is no code. A sinewave may be a "code" in terms of a mathematical formula, but it’s not music. The proper term is timbre and it’s an important one to use when referring to (from Wiki!) "the character or quality of musical sound." Again, there is no code, just as no two systems are ever alike, even if they were composed of exactly the same components and room dimensions/materials, they will never exist in the same time and space. Hence, no code; the variables are virtually infinite. And, the recording process is fraught with distortions, (phase, time, etc) that accumulate from violin to speaker to ear. Minimizing distortion of timbre throughout the recording/playback chain is the key. Please explain why removing a chassis accomplishes this? |
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@stevecham---You don’t understand. You ask MG to explain what he does, but he’s not gonna give that away---that’s his product! He is no longer a hi-fi retailer selling currently available commercial products (except his own), he sells his "tuning" service. He comes on Forums saying "Let’s have some fun!", but this is his business. He’s not posting here to "have some fun", he’s here to create interest in his services, his business. MG’s original commercial products in the 1990’s were the Room Tunes. Have you ever seen one, or even better looked inside or taken one apart? It’s a sheet of fiberglass insulation covered in grill cloth. Big Deal! A real acoustical engineer, Art Noxon of Acoustic Science Corporation, produces real, sophisticated acoustical products. They are found in recording studios and high performance hi-fi rooms all over the world. I’ve never seen a Room Tune in any studio I’ve been in, nor any high performance home music system. Everyone gave their Room Tunes away years ago; there are far better products available. I’m all for optimizing the sound of one’s system and room with tweaks. But "tuning" your CD player, receiver (really? A receiver?!), or speakers, and changing the "tuning" for different recordings? That’s a sure way to madness! |
Ok, so I want to be clear here. What your asking for is for me to show you even more credits? You do realize that this promotes me more not less. http://tuneland.forumotion.com/t249-a-look-at-tunable-systems#4490 I guess I can post more of this on TuneLand and then send links to the pages. To the members emailing, I know LOL! Michael Green http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/ |
"Michael: After I last posted here I checked out your website to learn what this tuning stuff is all about. I see you have several approaches to optimizing the triad of audio elements. So we are alike in that I have sought my own version of "tuning" through the years, but my approach is very different than yours." Hi Steve Feel free to join us on the TuneLand forum. Cool to see you using Pierre's products! Michael Green |
Hi kosst, what’s your friends name? I’ll be happy to look him up! Hi bdp, so your using Art’s products, cool! Use to be fun going up against ASC and RPG back in the 90’s. Video magazine did a showdown between us. RoomTune came out on top, cheers all around. But that’s not the point I’m making or why I'm here. I’m saying that "tuning" is where the hobby is at. Doesn’t matter to me what your walking with or who, what matters is, this is a hobby of exploration. The more you dig the more you find. Michael Green |
I am so confused. I see what look to be products on the site, not services. In fact, I dont really see anything offered for sale, either. I’m used to selling products and services of value. Without being able to convey that effectively to customers one doesn’t have a business model. Clearly, I’m a few cards short of a full deck. OK, I’ll go away now and quietly sit in the corner. |
"He’s not posting here to "have some fun", he’s here to create interest in his services, his business."Do not give Michael Green too much of a hard time for advertising this way. He is doing it relatively softly and, even if he came here just to honestly discuss some topic, he could be blamed for using the forum for advertising just based on the fact he does have a business in similar field. There is another thread out there where OP is a novice looking for advice and explanations. Like zero experience looking to start. He is not even sure what integrated amplifier means. There comes a store owner telling him what he sells, where he is located, and so on. And nobody said a word,. To make it more interesting, the store-owner suggests that the potential customer commits the tax fraud ("you can save on your state tax with us"). Nobody says a word. At the same time, when Michael Green talks about his ideas, no matter how silly they may seem to someone, he gets called on it. And others end up much more blatantly advertising on this particular thread here and it is all fine. I am not trying to defend Michael Green, I just think he is not really pushing his wares as obnoxiously as others are. |
stevecham, Reading about your tuning experiences/preferences exposes you as an enthusiast with some real-life considerations. Michael Green’s approach is uncommon and impractical for anyone with anybody or anything around. They may be valid sound-wise, but they are not doable for most of the people. Your approach is to tweak/tune the room and see what it does to the sound without destroying a livable space. His approach seems to be "I will get the sound I want, no matter what. Damn the cat, kid, and cleaning lady. Hey, damn me walking to the bathroom at night." Why would that be wrong? Both of you have different priorities, or at least yours seems to be adjustable while Michael’s is a hard core no compromise deal. I am not saying his thing is a way to go, but for someone it can be acceptable. Not me, not you, not anyone I know, but there may be someone. Another topic is to explain how removing of the cover would work, but I decided not to talk about it anymore. I did it and it was not enough to be considered a "walker" so I stopped. |
Actually bdp24 I'd love for this to be a Q&A, I'm just not up for the trolling. I don't mean only trolling me but trolling period. It takes up way too much time to weed through fields here. The good news for me is most the serious folks email me directly, which has been pretty cool and I have enjoyed it. If it ever does chill out here, I'm more than happy to chat. MG |
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Michael Green, I Googled J.C. Griffin and did not find anything horrible. Well, there are a few J.C. Griffins that come up and one seems to be a politician so someone could see it differently. Aside of that, nothing shocking about the man with a studio/house. Seems like a man doing his work on a local level. It does not seem like my kind of music, either, but to each his own. Nothing that I could see would prompt quite some response from kosst_amojan. |
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Well there you have it on the kosst story, next? Hi Glipson As you did, I did exactly what kosst suggested so I could see who he was talking about. kosst said "I sort of follow recording engineers and producers if I feel they're getting a particularly good sound of out their work, and these guys tend to be in high demand. I went to school with a guy who's recorded produced Billboard charting albums. I just Googled him. The second, third, forth, fifth, and sixth results were for him. I've been to his studio a few times. He's helped me sort out my room. I can find the guy on the internet!!!! He's got credits to his name! He actually produces results for paying, professional musicians! He does good work! He's the real deal. And I'd take his acoustic advice over MG's every single second of the week." __________________________________________________ So I simply asked for the guy's name. kosst gave it so I looked him up, no biggie. Like you would (even more so with a name like Michael Green) you see a ton of folks. That's how search engines work. The OP says "why be fake". To this kosst gives the answer "As for who I am, I go out of my way to avoid identifying myself or sticking out in a crowd. Anything I write either has no name or a fake name. I don't even give people my real name when I order food." So here is a guy who gets furious over me even though my background is as documented as can be, while he goes out of his way to give fake names. This is another example of why the OP was written. Michael Green |
bdp says "MG says he’s happy to do Q & A, so ask the questions to which you desire answers. Let’s see if he will, conversely ;-), talk it like he walks it." to which I say Michael Green or tons of designers would be more than happy to do Q&As here. However MG and these other designers are not about swimming in troll infested waters. At the same time, answers to the questions I get here, I can answer them on the TuneLand forum avoiding the trolls. If Agon would get rid of trolling you would find a lot of industry folks come to these pages. I wrote this in an email to Agon some time ago. I think personally it would be a healthy thing, monitored correctly. As I have said before, when the local stereo stores started going out of business in the 90’s, that was the beginning of designers loosing their connection to the end user through a 3rd person representative. This was a sad day for neighborhoods. Since that time a new paradigm has been in the making, not yet baked to the fullest but slowly evolving. I believe part of this evolution has been audio forums. It hasn’t always worked out, but has on some forums. As I have told Audiogon though, if the paradigm includes internet trolling these forums will fade into the archives along with this generation of HEA. I’m very open to discuss with Agon if they are interested, but the one thing I stressed and still do stress is having a troll free forum. I have done this on both of my forums and I know other forums have implemented this as well on theirs. Audio Circle has pulled it off to a degree, but it can go even further so that everyone has a voice without discrimination. I even think trolls can have their own playground, and as time goes on can graduate into the general audio population. If any would be interested in my suggestions I’m happy to give them, like I am happy to answer questions (troll free). Think about it. Do you have any idea how many readers of Agon would become "posters" of Agon if it was troll free? Michael Green |
Hey Mike, just what tuning do u advise to get my SA-10 to play the beginning of "Ventura Highway to have more ambience and liveliness? Ping pong back and forth as you stated. Every TT I have had that I can remember (I'm 56) has been able to do that. The SA-10 is on a Billy Bags tandem rack on the top shelf. It has Mapleshades isolation system 2 inch air dried maple and heavy brass footers, with rubber/cork supporting it, a VPI brick and 4 pouches of chrome steel ball bearings on top. TOTL Pangea power cord and interconnect. powered by a PS audio P1000 run in one of tbe 2 filtered outlets. The unit is perfectly level. I use a Bedini clarifier and a Herbies black hole cd mat. I keep the unit powered up 80 percent of the time. I don't want to buy any more cables or equipment stands. And I dont want to take the cover off my player because well because of dust. If you don't want to divulge any of ur methods here just email me an idea what you could do. The Marantz is the best by far of any CD player Ive been lucky to have. It gives and excellent presentation over 99 percent of the time. In my original post I only asked if there is a digital player or streamer that can play it with as much ambience as analog.Thanks ,Mike |
MG I cannot say I disagree with the spirit of your " troll free forum " post but who decides who is a troll? Where would you draw the line between a troll and just a stubborn,opinionated hardhead? Its a fine line to walk and an even tougher one to enforce, not sure the present moderation staff here are up for that. After all the vast majority of posts removed are only done so because someone has reported them. Not because a mod member or some software tag has detected a violation of the spirit of the forum. Just my thoughts. |
Hi Blueranger My recommendation would be to join TuneLand and start a thread on "Home Audio Systems". http://tuneland.forumotion.com/f3-home-audio-systems From there we can explore your questions more directly. Michael |
Hi Uberwaltz If you look at TuneLand you don't see trolling, anywhere. That's because there is a common spirit of putting music, the history of music, people's systems and experiences first. For other forums removing trolling isn't that hard and once a few of the obvious trolls are banned it doesn't take long for the more mature posters to start putting the disobedient ones in their places. On these forums, behind the scenes, there is a place called permissions. In that place you can assign where a person can go or not. Folks who get out of line can have their permissions limited. It would be actually easier to have the mods give permissions than having to make report judgement calls. As it is right now, the mods are listening to several sides of an issue with each making their case and the mod has to decide who to delete or not delete. Some forums have mods who come up and say "be nice now", then issue a warning, then ban. On a forum like this I would have levels of mods. One would be a peer mod. There are several members on here who would make excellent peer mods, you usually find them in the music section. These are guys who put listening to music above any of the other issues, and almost always are encouraging others regardless of their systems. You can also divide things up. The greet and meet section is a place where folks can work out their getting to know each other issues. A lot of times on here folks don't get along only because they don't know each other. A greet and meet forum would be a place where you post your own system (with pictures) and give background. Then you have the debate forum. This is where you go to discuss topics and give your point of view. The way I would monitor these threads is easy. You must give your name and profession. If someone has a strong opinion they should be showing who they are. You then have your industry forums. Those get monitored by the industry members themselves. The industry member moderating the forum pays a monthly fee of $30.00-$50.00 to Audiogon for this right. These threads should have words and pictures. The main thing here is to make an Audiogon community. Michael Green |
Hi Tom I’m not sure when you became an Audiogoner. I believe our last ads here would have been around 2004 or so. Steven at that time visited my place here in Vegas and discussed what the future of Audiogon might look like, along with the rest of HEA. Richard Beers and I had similar talks (among others), where was HEA going and how does it get there. HEA as a whole turned out to be a lot slower to getting there (wherever there was to be) then any of us thought. Lots of great ideas around that time but little momentum. HEA should have grown but somehow went in reverse. Around the same time I was offered two pretty sweet deals that took my focus away from HEA. One was with my dream company Herman Miller and the other the chance to design an entire music department for SUNY, two opportunities there was no way I was going to pass up. I dipped my toe a few times back in HEA, but there has always been enough private clients to keep me going without jumping in with both feet. Now that the Tuning Buzz is back in swing, we’ll see. Thanks for asking! I’ve just made a shipment off to Malaysia to some great listeners and I’m excited to see their response to the Rev Speakers. As you know there is a Tunable Room already there full of my goodies, so we’ll see how the speakers fit in. The speakers also just got another great review so, yes, I’m tip toeing around spending some ad money when the time is right. On Audiogon though, as I told them, I’m not so much interested in doing ads here until the internet trolling is cleared up on the forum. I thrive off of good vibes not bad, so I’m somewhat into building good vibes here, but the jury is still out on if it will take hold. In the meantime I’m still trying to figure out how to proceed with Vegas. Finding the right place, the right size, has been interesting. Moving on the Strip I found that my place is now way too small and even renting another space here to add to it, I’m still too cramped plus zoning, aarrggg. The last 3 weeks I’ve been house shopping so I can get these current Tunable Rooms out to folks. Always a balance these days, either too far out of town or too little space for the bigger projects. Thank God I have the greatest clients (friends) in the biz. take care Tom, hope you and Robert are doing well and have enjoyed the summer Michael Green |
Hi Uberwaltz The definition is simple. "In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, whether for the troll’s amusement or a specific gain." Who writes the guidelines? Audiogon. It’s Audiogon’s forum. It’s either going to be here tomorrow or it won’t. That’s a decision only they can make. We can give our thoughts on this, but what they do as a company will determine their fate. Time isn’t going to stand still for any of us and opportunities are always there if people choose to use them. I would say 95% of the people who visit this forum have good vibes or good vibe potential. I would also say, if you get rid of the haters who can’t change their ways the rest of the people on borderline will start or continue to project their best self. When folks hang around bad vibes they in time adopt those bad vibes, however the reverse is also true. There’s no need to over think it, it will just happen. It’s all about sewing seeds. Ultimately people want to be on an upswing. For some it comes natural and for others it’s tough cause they don’t really feel good about themselves or the cards they think they have been dealt. With the folks who don’t have true self esteem you will always find two traits. One they will lie, and two, they will be the first to say someone else is lying. The definition of trolls is pretty easy when you think about it. Michael Green |
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The OP was a troll at the outset..( dont get mad) he said.. He was here to start a fight to stir the pot he Bogarts that joint making it all his. He may share but only if your in his snake pit..He is a troll on steroids a parasitic troll one who contributes nothing at all. His products are non progressive in thought or implementation. He posts reviews from 1998..that tells us he is proud and arrogant but has not defined or refined his ideas with any new product introduction for the 21st century...If you burn off the oil from the snake your left with a snake. |
Hi analogluvr You think I'm being hypocritical? You know, if I thought I was I wouldn't be here. If one of my friends pulled me aside and said I was I would leave as well. My friends say "why waste your time" but they don't say I'm being anything but trying to promote tuning. I am also still getting emails from Agon members thanking me for taking the time to post here. If it were the other way around I would go. But I think Agon has an opportunity to change the face of audio forums if they want to. And, I believe this would be a big step forward for the hobby. Michael Green |
To my knowledge Audiogon has never done anything yet about trolls or trolling of its own volition. Heck I am not even sure anybody has had a serious time out never mind being banned. Now I do know a lot of other forums work a much stricter policy including the one I was a moderator on. But that does not ever seem to have been the norm here,much more an open anything goes relying on basic human decency and etiquette to keep it civil. For good or bad..... |
theaudiotweak, "Why should we as an individual or as a group pay a toll for a troll to perform mass promotion on all of us?"Your statement is correct in general and it will be hard to find someone to disagree. However, remember that "the troll is in the mind of beholder" and not a hard-defined category. No matter what Internet slang claims. At the same time, this particular thread has probably provided more exposure for your products than it has for Michael Green's. Yours has been better wrapped and has had smoother presentation, delivered to us as explanations why Michael Green's products are bad. I am sure I am not the only one who read them with interest and have looked it up on your website after reading about it here. It is really not fair to claim Michael Green is getting free advertisement here when you do the same, maybe even more productively. Better stick to "who worked for whom some centuries ago". There, none of the rest of us can make judgements. |
Not to be a self promoter but of what website are you say I maybe pushing? I own only one website..and it is not an audio product website. It is a website for the promotion of ideas and devices for the enhancement of musical instruments thru the reduction of interfering energy and the understanding of polarities of shear waves in solids. The origins of sound..Tom |
The last few lines I wrote previous are understood by only a few..I can find virtually no mention of shear waves in solids and only in the seismic world. But shear waves travel in all solids and their polarities and energy transfer are determined by the material shape, mass and boundary they touch. I am here to promote ideas some old and some new based on what I have learned over time and experience ...the most recent catalyst being a seismologist. Shear waves are the origin of sound in most if not all musical instruments..and every solid in your audio room. Tom |
theaudiotweak, You do get a credit for admitting... And here at Star Sound we have a published list with prices for over 60 products.. not zero, none or just 2..We have reviews and show awards on several of our designs.Where this above appeared was neither a banner ad, nor a posted-for-sale item. It was on the very same thread ("Talk but not walk") that Michael Green started and uses to make the world aware of his ideas. I am not his major supporter at all, but give man a break. He started a thread that gives you a free advertising ride, too. |