Supporting Local Audio Stores are we?

I am feeling quite sea sick with all this boat talk.

But back on topic... My feeling is that it is a small market, and there are too many manufacturers. This means that dealers cannot carry enough brands for knowledgeable people, and carry too many to appropriately serve the people just starting out (lack of choice is a blessing sometimes).

We Audiogon habitues are 'bad customers' for B&M stores because we know what we want and in many cases we may have more experience, and more invested in what we really like, than the dealer, and certainly more than Lrsky's $10/hr college student. As people who do this because we like it, we spend more of our own money and time searching for information than is probably reasonable.

I might suggest that the model for metropolitan areas might be different than what we are used to... The model might be for manufacturers to supply demo equipment to a couple of dealers who split a listening room site. Dealers split up a large-ish factory building and outfit it with a dozen rooms with sound-proofing between them, Ikea furniture in most, and some nicer furniture in others (that can be sourced from local high-end estate auctions). Customers would be free to bring in their own equipment, and set it up on rolling racks prior to using the room. The rack(s) would be rolled in, stabilized, plugged in, and set in the first few minutes. Dealership staff would hook up the piece to be auditioned. If the rooms were set up well beforehand, speaker placement would likely be a snap, and concentric placement rectangles would be set up on the floor. Because the site is communal, rooms would be rented at some hourly rate in order to cover the cost of the site (maybe $10-20 an hour). Dealers would offer auditions of products they sponsor, along with customers' own equipment, for free if they want by putting their own money into the pot if they wanted to bring the customer in without him/her paying. There would be another set of rooms which allowed full dealer set-ups of 'recommended systems' at certain price ranges and those rooms would have rolling racks of equipment.

Rooms could be reserved (and pre-paid?) by internet. Rooms which had time-contiguous rentals would have a buzzer go off 5mins before the end.

Such a dealership set-up could act as a used equipment dealer as well I expect, with a place to audition if you wanted.

In return for the customer paying his audition fee, MSRP would no longer be sacrosanct on new products.

I obviously have too much time on my hands...

The UK has an organisation called BADA (British Audio Dealers Association), it is a group of up market real audiophile shops that go that little but further to keep the customer satisfied and not sell anything that the customer does not like or need, there is no hard salesmen bullshit tactics, it is all easy and a relaxed atmosphere. They do not discount on the items they sell (If I remember correctly) as you are paying for their expert service, before, during and after the sale. The 'other sort' of hi-fi shops mostly located in Tottenham Court Road, central London, are the discount stores where you can barter the prices, but do not expect good customer service, and once you have left the store, or once the cash has been handed over, you are on your own.
The real king of cheap hi-fi is a shop called 'Richer Sounds', actually there are about 30+ richer sound shops dotted around the UK. The owner's policy is to get small premises in good locations, stack the shelves high, sell cheaply. If you have been to one of his shops it is about the size of a restaurant rest room here in the US, I kid you not they are tiny, no demo rooms (a few locations do but are so small literally only book shelf or diddy floor standers can fit in the space), the whole shop is just a room, a small room also. That's what the general public in the UK want, cheapness. When I was in the UK I was a regular customer of 'Grahams Hi-fi' shop, yes a member of BADA. No discounts off the MRSP, but the service was top notch. This was how good it was, I bought a 2nd hand Linn LP12, I was having a few problems with it, I took it there one Saturday morning, the Linn service chap spent about hour+, tinkling tweaking, adding the bits it needed that were not there and getting it all up and running sweetly, and they never charged me for their time. The turntable was a mess due to some home hi-fi DIY person (butcher more like).Graham's was the best shop I have ever been in.
A no pressure take your time kind of attitude.

I’m pretty sure those folks who can pony up the $$$$$$$$$ for Yachts & Bugatti’s aren’t too concerned with web sales of used audio gear. The one’s capable of laying out such copius amounts of money will continue to do so as the spirit moves them irrespective of current financial prosperity or woes. Speculative buyers, or collectors might well pull in their claws during such instances… or not.

Top tier stuff sells to an entirely different clientele. Dream systems aren’t bought by dreamers generally speaking.

When we were kids we’d all day dream out loud as to what we would own had we the $$$ for it. Eventually someone would opt for a Leer. Shortly thereafter another naysayer would chime in, “If you could buy a Leer jet, you couldn’t afford the gas for it! ”

I always thought if I could afford a private jet, gas would be the least of my worries.

When I was selling electronics, the owner of the building we leased dropped in to discuss the sale of it to us. This fella owned a goodly number of warehouses around the US. He was a car collector too.

He liked Fords especially. He had so many from the line, even FoMoCo would contact his ‘mechanics’ when another collector needed something special from an older model Ford he owned, such as a replacement part. His techs, upon approval, would pull the part off one of his cars, pack it up and send it to FoMoCo. FoMoCo would then fabricate several of this ‘sought out part’, sell the one in question, inventory another one or two, and send duplicates and the orig back to this ‘collector’.

As such, he’s never at a loss for new parts for his old cars.

Have your people call my people… we’ll do brunch sometime.

There are markets which will remain recession proof.

I think the list of buyers for the Hope Diamond, or Fabergee Eggs, were quite short… and financing was not discussed.

Uber expensive items aside… What continues to intrigue me is the ‘actual retail price’ of audio or video gear.

Just what is the actual price? MSRP?

I’ve always felt the ‘going price’ for a thing is simply what it can regularly be sold for.

Over inflation of a products list price is nonsense, and often laughable. Whatever it sells for in the end is it’s price. That’s it. Finis.

Any number of dealers or makers do submit to buyers a Yada Yada amp goes for $10K…. BUT they’ll sell it direct to you for $6K and avoid the middle man.

Hmmm. Then isn’t it worth only $6K?

For a thing to be worth $10K…. sales of it for that amount would be required to substantiate it… just saying it isn’t making it so.

Of course, those “people who have people” might have paid top dollar for it, though I seriously doubt it…. That’s why they have those “people’ around them.

No one, rich or poor, pays more than they can legitimately justify paying for a given thing.

The value of it is another story entirely.

I think that is where we find our own faults… we value certain electronic creations at times, more than needs be. You know… it’s one of them… Man! I just got to have that yada Yada preamp, or some such thing!

I’ve quit telling my friends what I pay for the stuff I get any more. … or anyone else for that matter.

I just tell ‘em to stay behind the yellow tape I have strung up about the rig and speakers, and don’t step on any cables, or touch anything… especially the remotes!

Oh, and yeah…. When they ask about my ‘antiques’, I say, “Yeah… They still make tube gear.”

01-11-09: Chadnliz
John, man up and clean that snot off your shirt!

That might be insulting if it came from a real man, considering the source, all I can do is LMAO.

Blindjim,
What an interesting perspective...a man of great intelligence.

Any product presented, meeting all the base requirements of a given market or human need have what is known as 'utility'. Utility, (going back in to distant memeory of Econ101), is explained as follows.
"A glass of water to a man floating in a crystal clear lake, has 'no value.' Yet the same glass of water is of infinite value to a man dying of thirst in a desert."

Ahhh...enter want v. need. (sounds like a Supreme court decision, no?)

We, all of us here 'want' the latest toy with the cool looking knobs and such, (oh hell admit it). I remember a great writer for one of the Paper Mags, saying one time that one of his guilty pleaures was looking at his system in the dark. (I'm thinking he was auditioning the latest tube system from Mssrs conrad and johnson). He stated categorically, that anyone who denies having done that is flat out lying.

So enter the hobbyiest notions of this 'pricing' discussion, with our interpretatins of 'fair and reasonable.'

How do we determine fair and and reasonable, and need versus want?

Abstract: "Hey Jack, I'm going to compress carbon under hundreds of thousands of pounds of pressure for several million years then present you with the results for your birthday. Want a 1 pound or 2 pound one of those?'
Jack not knowing of which he speaks says 'no thanks'.
Then, show his wife a picture of the result, under halogen lights and get HER answer.
In an audiophiles mind, that compressed carbon has 'infinite' value when we see it. (Think Farrah Fawcett's 1980's poster).
Since money is an elastic for us all, we, like Blindjims example pay whatever when we are flush. As the money contracts, we start to hedge, self mitigating our desire for said product. Then comes the chiseling of price.
Actually, it's none of our business what it costs to make a jar of Peter Pan Peanut Butter, or a gallon of milk from Deans. We only know we need them and buy them because they're food. Imagine going in a grocery and saying, "Hey would you take .59c for that jar instead of $2.59, I saw one on PeanutgoN for .45c. The can was still sealed and it had an acceptable expriation date (see warranty).

We ONLY bitch about pricing because this is a luxury commodity, and we ONLY bitch and care about margins because this is a luxury commodity.

I have sold to enough extremely wealthy folks to know this one thing. "They don't ask what the margin is." They want it to work, follow up, good service.

I'll never forget proposing the most expensive audio system I had ever fashioned together, to a neuro surgeon. I gave he and his wife three options, good, better and best, fearing the price, and thinking that I might scare him off. They studied the proposals for a while as I sweated. Then after what seemed an eternity, he asked, "If I buy this...(wait...wait...wait...) will it be better than Dr. XYX's system ?" (his best friend) exhale!



Jim Thiel and I were having dinner one night, and after a few glasses of vino, I said, "You know, I'd still sell audio if I were ridiculously wealthy." He looked at me for the longest time, then said, "Yeah...but then, you probably wouldn't be very good at it."

It's the same as, "If you had a billion dollars, would you own a Ferrari?" Answer, "Naaaa, I don't like them." RIGHT! Give that man the $1B then visit him later and check out his garage.

"Fair pricing" is only fair or unfair in our personal lexicons, and as I can only hope to gleen from our 'margin and pricing discussions here, are fair only, if WE can afford it. Let's be real here and realize that the business model I showed in an earlier post would not suit very many of you out there. Who would own a business, work countless hours per day and worry 24/7, lie awake at night staring at the ceiling, and WISH to make $3800. per month?
Some genius will shout back, "Well, uhhh, if they don't like it, let them get another job, noone's forcing them." True, but then, we have, no distribution, no demos, no 'used gear'.
I would submit that "Fair pricing" is fair if it is balanced with competition within it's market and performance. Beyond that, some of it seems tend to make pricing fair or unfair if 'we can afford it.'

If the prices as we know them now at the Local Audio Stores were truly unfair, (too much margin, specifically as we almost,repeat, almost have to consider that that manufacturers pricing because of competitive forces has to be at least reasonable), why is it so hard for those B&M dealers to stay in business?

Do I want a bargain? Sure, but the best price is not always the best deal.

Thoughts?

Tvad says:
"Teaching, or demonstrating value takes longer than paying at the checkout stand, and many buyers simply don't have the patience to take the time to understand what they may gain by utilizing a dealer who provides them with extra service and perks...the elusive value."

You really nailed it. Why, in our ADHD society do we fail to 'take the time' to understand that by gaining a partner (read really good dealer) do we chase the price and not the product. Are we audio nuts all dillitantes or are the sales people that inept?

Someone, Jeff (forget his last name) recanted a story here on A'gon about the best sales experience he had ever had, talking about how he paid 'full retail' and was glad to do it, because of the sales experience.
Really, if it took an extraordinary experience for him to feel that paying full retail was something special, I guess that shows that very few of the sales people out there are doing an adequate job of defining and extending the lines between price and value. That was the nature of my soliloqy on the diamond in my last post.
People buy intangibles, but usually need tangible reasons to do so. One tangible in the buyers mind, would be the 'value received' either in the form of the product or the service rendered by the dealer. When he or she gets both, the 'perceived value' escallates exponentially--therefore talk of pricing would usually evaporate quickly.

I remember right here on audiogon, people paying full retail and waiting for MONTHS and MONTHS to buy preamps and amps from Mick, in Australia. I personally don't recall anyone (they may have) talking about a discount or a special inducement from him to purchase. It was all about their perceived value of the product. That whole scenario seems to be at odds with the discussion here, or does it actually confirm some of the comments?

People felt that they were getting the best price, because Mick was selling 'direct', no middle man, therefore they could perceive a value greater than those run through distribution. So the question now becomes, how many of those people who purchased, actually heard the product personally? How many realized a demo? Would they have paid restocking or a higher price to confirm the sonic qualities of the product?
Levelling the playing field with factory direct and distributed products has always been a knotty question. If it were simple to factory direct, why wouldn't everyone do it? Ford Motor...eliminate the dealer, just call 1-800-MUSTANG and get one?
The nature of audio is such that the vast majority must have a demo, they must experience the magic.

Many years ago in Nashville, TN. I demonstrated the Pipedreams Loudspeakers to a man who actually owned several auto dealerships, and was by any standards very wealthy. He only came in to the store because he was friends with the owner of the Pipedreams (Nearfield Acoustics) Company. After an hour of playing music, (Prayer with Andre and Celine or Brightman and Josh, he left the store with tears in his eyes, REALLY, saying that I had made him 'uncomfortable'. Well...I was stunned...I didn't get it.
A week later he came in with his wife and bought the speakers, for $30K full price. His wife called me aside and thanked me. I blinked, "For what, maam." (again confused).
"You changed my husband..., he was this, macho dude afraid of his emotions, and his experience led us to countless hours of talks he and I, Thanks."
I was really moved by that. I still to this day, shake my head.

"Music hath charm."

So, Grant, given the experience that most of us have had in audio stores, I don't blame ANYONE for being focused on price, because it's not very often that sales people out there do the job well enough to mitigate the price objection.
Least you think I am making a blanket, 'know it all' statement, I will tell you that, I made a living 'shopping and training audio sales people all over the country.' I know how elitist and condescending many in the audio stores act, therefore, chase the customers to price rather than value.

The answer to this whole thread is: what, people?

Larry
PS Good one Grant!

For what it is worth I continue to support Larry at Hollywood Sound and have done so for years. Although now it is a 90 minute drive, but has always been worth the time and dollars spent with him. Yes he is a B&M dealer, heavy into all things analog, vast experience of about some 30 years or more. Know of many more folks that make the drive. He does business as it should be conducted. Thats why he has lasted all these years.

Jmcgrogan,

"That might be insulting if it came from a real man, considering the source, all I can do is LMAO."

Who are you anyway and why do you care?
The comment was neither to you or about you, it was a joke between friends..so who cares what you think in the first place? The difference between me and you is I would say that to his face, I doubt you would say that to mine.
EDIT
I think you assumed I was talking to you, there are many named John and reading closer you may pick up on the fact I was joking with the dealer "John" cheers

Hi Larry,

Given the context of your writings, it looks like you are establishing price by attaching values to service, product availabilty, demos, expertise. Given that there will always be customers who appreciate and happily pay for these attributes, do you then end up with a business that caters exclusively to the very few who are willing to pay 40% or 50% of the sticker price for these benefits? Seems to me you could do a whole lot better selling services a la carte to shoppers who need them. Bundling the service with the product is a solution for some, but it's patently obvious that, for the majority, they would prefer a choice. What if i call you with an order for a product, need no help or guidance in selecting it, just a fast over the counter transaction. If i pay your service surcharge without receiving or needing the service, am i not paying more than i should? If you want to call that extra payment 'supporting' my local dealer, i wonder what i get in return for said support, other than the uneasy feeling that I'm 'supporting' a business model that may no longer be relevant. i do apologize for being so blunt, but the answer to the thread is that, no, for many of us, we do not support our local dealer. Why? We think we can do better with our audio spending dollars elsewhere. It really is as simple as that i think.
i guess as long as I'm in this deep, i may as well articulate another belief i have regarding pricing and its impact on the industry. i believe that nothing has marginalized, isolated, satirized and damaged the high end more than the price structure neccessary to 'support' the infrastucture. When less consumers buy into the value proposition, retailers buy less product from manufacturers, they in turn need to derive more profit from weaker sales to support their business, and the end result is 50k amplifiers. So, in a very real sense, supporting my local dealer contributes to this flawed system and perpetuates the damage done to the industry.
It takes a brave man to ask the question you did on a used equipment forum full of value shoppers; hope you take the answers you receive in the spirit they're offered! I'm certain we all want the high end industry to succeed and be profitable, but it looks like we're on shaky ground based on the evidence before us. Maybe the high tech industry will save us from the death spiral that has become the high end industry; people do love music and are buying audio equipment; they just don't see any value in buying ours anymore, sadly.

Chadnliz, if that wasn't meant for me, I apologize. As I read it I was the only 'John' on the thread. Yes, it is a common name (thanks Mom), but I was unaware of your inside joke.

As to 'who am I?', I seem to have been here much longer than you, though you do seem to be much more active than me in these threads.

Peace,
John

Chadnliz, I have noticed your last few threads on Audiogon that have been said quite vitriolic and venomous, as if one had a trailer and the roof had gotten a nasty leak, ( I am not implying that you live in a trailer btw).
May I suggest some chill pills? and learn to relax, try some camomile tea, listen to some Mozart, and Breathe.
Everyone is not out to get you.
As the only John on this thread says,
Peace.

I’ve never inquired as to how much a thing costs to produce. Never have I begrudged any for the differences between presumed or known, production costs and those fees invested in bringing it to point of sale.

As was said, It really is none of my business… unless I’m an investor in that enterprise.

I think some now not too distant inventions have simply changed how we are now able to do business. Regularly. Routinely, and with a bit of safety…. The ‘web’, is just that invention.

It’s changed the face of sales at large. Mighty quickly now folks are turning to it more so every day as a viable instrument for gaining both needs and wants. As familiarity grows and comfort levels increase by it’s presence and use, more dollars will go it’s way. Given the current retail atmosphere in general, B&M retailers are hard pressed to compete with it.

It is solely my preff that IF at all possible I would rather deal face to face than electronically, ‘byte to byte’, as it were. Always. Sadly, such is no longer the regular case… in my area, at least. Mostly.

The web factor has made it’s mark on audio for sure. The days of the affluent, aloof, and erudite high end audio establishments are numbered.

If I want to be ignored, or condescended too, I’ll just go over to my friends house and try to get her cat to come to me when I call it.

The days of sellers ‘catering’ to buyers have been changed. Albeit, this take it or leave it, … it’s not my job…. You want a what? Attitudes are more a sociological fall out, than anything else.

I doubt seriously those who do inventory goods, and have a commitment to service and support for their customers past, present, and future are likely doomed if not already entrenched in a major metro area… for little more reason than current and ongoing social attitudes, as well as the apparent ease of double clicking…. Or reaching out and touching someone across the globe by phone.

Routinely displayed elements of “Class” or it’s absence, also seem in short supply these days…. Or there’s far too much distinction between them, by some…. And adds into the mix of reasons for some of my statements as to why home grown affairs are falling away as of late.

As for value … in a valueless society, price remains king…. And that’s a tremendously sad epitaph.

Gawd with all due respect stay out of it, John and I had an issue that was started when he insulted me based on his misreading of my post....it has nothing to do with you. Please save judgement and lectures for you kids.

John, sorry for the interuption...I went back and edited the post when it hit me you must have been misundetood and I noted that so no worries, when I asked who you were it was because I didnt at first know who you were or why you came at me but in a previous post you noted your real name was John and thats where I put it all together. My joke was for John a dealer and he would get it...trust me.

Blindjim has nailed it. 7 words "in a valueless society, price remains king" Nothing more to be said. The man is a gentleman and a scholar. I doff my hat.

I have had the privilege of buying my equipment from Audio Consultants in Evanston, Illinois (Chicago area)for the past 16 years and my father has shopped with them since the 1970s.

I happen to be very diligent when it comes to researching consumer electronics on the internet but I have found over the years that despite my constant forum lurking and web surfing that there is no better way to stay informed with the latest in audio/video than to just drop by their store and talk to them. Their staff has been simply invaluable to me over the years.

As a general rule, I absolutely will not buy equipment online or at discount stores if my purchasing decision is influenced by their expertise. If I demo something there or get advice there, I buy it there. I don't expect them to compete with the web or discount stores. If they carry it I usually just give them the business. They are a big part of the audio hobby for me.

Many in this thread have focused on price. While equipment price is a major factor in this discussion, I believe other issues have significantly contributed to the reduced number of B&M stores. Those who are lucky enough to have maintained a great relationship with great audio shops are fortunate. I remember what it was like to go into an audio shop in the 70's; part fantasy, part retreat, part culture, and always something to look forward to. However, the internet has made things very hard for B&M retailers in many businesses, primarily due to the availability of information. Because of the internet, buyers no longer have to rely on sales people or their monthly Stereophile magazine for information about new equipment. This is compounded since the cost of maintaining a strong experienced sales staff has become too great in mid-sized (mainly HT) markets, so service suffers as buyers rely even less on their local shop for information. Also, small to mid sized shops cannot carry more than a few main brands of gear, so they push what they carry and buyers don't have the selection they can get by simply logging on and purchasing used or direct from manufacturers, or from internet dealers who handle a large number of brands. This factor becomes more important when you look at the number of small audio manufacturers putting out high quality, great sounding gear that even 10-15 years ago, without the internet, would not have had enough exposure to become viable in the marketplace. Even service is no longer benefitted by having a local dealer. I remember when the dealer maintained technical staff and I could have gear serviced by technicians "in the store." Now, you take your gear back to the dealer who simply forwards it on to the manufacturer or to an authorized service center. Anyone with access to a FedEx store can do that themselves. Therefore, I believe price is only one component and other factors such as deterioration of quality sales staff, limited selection, lack of technical service, and mostly proliferation of available information on the internet have eroded the mystique and viability of the once thriving B&M audio shop.

Old school themes in a new age of "me dfirst" & "Me... Me... Me" operetas forces change... somewhere…. By someone.

20 years ago any of the local high end shops offered all the amenities. Sadly, that has since changed.

10 years ago, despite the then present attitude of indefference and arrogance my local dealers were tryijng on for size at the time, one could still talk to them intelligently.... now and then.

Since the turn of the century, my local B&M outlets have become entrenched in that austere "We got the cure for cancer here so ante up", theme for committing to high end retail... by and large. Half do, and the other half are at the very least yet approachable.

NONE of these outlets have employees over 40 save the owners. Some have no working knowledge of anything other than SS equipment by the largest of majorities. Only one just outside my area has any working knowledge of analog, and tube gear. Naturally he can not carry every lineup, nor the entireity of any of the lines he inventories. His people skills however are far superior to these other yahoos.

Is it any wonder that those in similar situations have not fallen prey to mid fi large box outlets, and been scooted away from their local audio authorities by their poor experiences at these establishments?

We’ve spoken of price & value here, and I’ve alluded to simple change being the prime mover… but isn’t this debate one more of ‘RIGHT or WRONG’, than these 3 other FACTORS? In truth, isn’t competition always good? Good for the consumer, and the seller?

Competition provides us all utilities to suppluy both desires and staples. To be a cut above the rest (which should be a fundamental aspiration for any business ethic) presumes every effort should point towards that end… being top notch. The best.

Every sale has elements which must be attended too… Qualifying the customer…. Justifying the cost of the item…. And providing them a REASON to buy it or from you more particularly.

B&M stores either will acknowledge the value of establishing good customer relations and the viability of web based resources these buyers can and do possess, or they’ll die out. Likely sooner than later.

So then, is the case of supporting local dealerships a more complex dynamic than a simple one for so very many?

Or is it merely the right or wrong thing for us to be so myopic with our purchases when other avenues exist and yet continue to reinforce local over outside enterprises?

Like it or not that’s simple competition. But now, your competitors aren’t just down the street or close by.

I submit still more change is inevitable in both instances. I don’t think it’s a matter of being ‘pennywise & pound foolish’ either. Audio nuts are usually informed and intelligent sorts. If not straight away, they become so very soon… and we are all people. People as it happens require a bit more attention generally speaking.

We all appreciate being appreciated.

Store owners must develop or attain more arrows for their quiver. Exclusivity comes to mind, yet has it’s own shortcomings. Then there’s people skills. Availability. Service. Let’s not forgoe convenience either. Flexibility with pricing must now take a step up too.

Either you are in the race, or you are buying tickets ffor it…. Or ya just stay home and watch it on TV. None of those scenarios is either more right or more wrong… and they do translate to this topic.

One of the above 3 things, being in, going to, or staying home, occurs based upon whether or not a good enough REASON for them is being presented at the time a decision needs to be made.

For some it will always be price. For other’s, value is key. Brand loyalty for another. Ego counts for something here too. But all require a reason sufficient for them to pony up their ducks either at this place or that… on the whiz bang Yada Yada you sell or another gleaming zippity sap creation elsewhere.

I’ve been asking myself this one question when it comes to buying just about anything costing over a few hundred dollars…. “Why should I buy this from you” when I go to spend money.

Be it a conscious thought, or a subconscious one, I believe we all do that on some level.

… and so, we’ve passed onto REASONS to buy, from price, value, and the loyalistic morals and ethics of things…. Or so it’s how I feel about it all anyhow.

So… like the lady sang… “give me some kind of reason, and I’ll turn right back around”.

Mitch2 has, IMHO, presented the history of the demise of B&M dealers, in the most concise and intelligent manner possible.

This horse is not only long out of the barn, it has died! Folks who want to make money in the audio industry aught to pay attention to what guys like Kevin Deal are doing. There are a few more drops of blood in the rock, but you've got to squeeze the hell out of it.

Chadnliz,
With all due respects to you to, this is a public forum as far as I can gather, if one types something, I think everyone on here is entitled to add a thread or comment. If you want to say something personal to just one individual then why not shoot them an e/mail instead of on here for all to see, and maybe comment on? I do not have an axe to grind with you, just in case you think I do.
have a good day and happy listening.

Life is too short to let things like that bother me after I say my peace. Good day to you too and be well.

as manufacturers sell direct to consumers, they take upon themselves the dual role of designer and retailer. if this trend continues, it will decrease the likelihood of continued viability of the "high end" audio store.

as a consumer buying from a manufacturer, with a home trial and return option has a distinct advantage over buying from an audio store, as the manufacturer is a usually a better source of source of information about the product he/she sells than most audio dealers.

I wonder what will be around longer... this website, other's like it, or local dealers?

Or.... maybe even this thread and other's like it?

In each case we can uncover more opinions, facts, and perspectives, and seller/buyer relationships via the local shops, or simply leave things go whatever way they might of their own volition.

Remember too the dart thrown into the local distribution array by VSA not too long ago, without indicating this new plan to their current dealer force beforehand.

Somewhat contrary to the gloomy atmosphere surrounding local audio entities, is within the past six years two more BM audio stores have sprouted up in my area, making for a total of four independently owned & operated outlets, whilst major chains are reorganizing or dying off.

Two of these are making some presence kknown here.

Another which relocated to this area from a left coast location it previously maintained, fuels it's own web centered buying aspiration.

???

Okay for what its worth here is more fuel for the fire.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/viewpoint/0801/longlive.htm

There is another subject on Audiogon in regrads to 'Vandersteen's' new model #7 loudspeaker, it was at the CES and alone costs $45,000, partnered with ancillaries that totalled $300,000, apparently it sounds 'sublime'.
No shit! if you can't make or sell a speaker that sounds good for less than $45,000, then one perhaps is in the wrong business, then again one IS in the wrong business. The Car Industry in the EU
thrives and indeed runs and survives on the fact that the budget cars that the masses buy enables the mid range and luxury cars to be produced, no bottom end means no top end.
Who can afford to pay that much when all the world is going to the dogs?
Instead of a race to see who can produce stupid exotica that only doctors/lawyers/pop stars/actors can buy.
Give us some bread and butter speakers with bread and butter prices,keep the normal waged people happy, and feel free btw to leave the butter off, my cholesterol is high as it is.
Give us cheap but good, I know you designers can do it.
Renault were producing are nice car so sale only to EU's new 400m Eastern Europeans for the princely sum of 3000 euros. I am sure by now they have bazillions.
In fact when I was in Europe I would have flown to where they were selling them (they are not available to the rich west Europeans) and bought one and driven it back.
I would support Johnk of KCS, truly excellent speakers, that put these mega ridiculously priced speakers to shame.

Another insight to the dilemma and I know these folks and this article is very true.

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/1997-06-26/news/twilight-of-the-tweaks/1

Its always possible that larger or more adventuresome ecommerce audio companies that market solely and sell directly via internet might step in and open a new breed of B&M shops in larger markets that enables buyers to stop in and actually audition equipment. Bose has been doing this for years and their business model seems to be quite successful, regardless of what one might think of the gear.

Gawd,
The trouble with cheaper gear is folks like ones in this hobby will still pass on the cheap stuff and insist quality comes with the premium price. Meanwhile the general public still wont buy because they just dont care, so the firing squad circle will still continue.

Chadnliz,
I agree with you, but I do not want the trumpets and a big fanfare when a pair of speakers sounds amazing at $45,000,$100,000 or even $300,000. I want all the hooplah to happen when a pair of speakers sounds amazing for 3k and is the toast of the hi-fi community, and surely that is the trick, for the designers to achieve greatness for little dinaro.
I suppose there is 'snobbery' in hi-fi circles also.
Does anyone have an approximate idea on how many pairs Vandersteen will sell at that price? 100pr, 200pr or more?

Repeating something I posted before...my grandson makes a good living importing stuff from China, including speakers. One model he was selling for $50, but there were few sales. He jacked the price up to $200, and now they sell well. I bet the same thing would happen with better speakers with a zero added to both prices.

Brimac et al,

Great post, and well thought out.
"Seems to me you could do a whole lot better selling services a la carte to shoppers who need them. Bundling the service with the product is a solution for some, but it's patently obvious that, for the majority, they would prefer a choice."

Yes, as stated previously, money IS an object, and since this is a luxury item, pricing would seem to take precidence. I don't blame anyone who looks for a great value, bargain. The issue at hand could also be that, people trade, seek new gear for what reasons? Are they unhappy because of what they perceive to be inferior performance? I asked the question about us being dillatantes, which TVAD answered honestly, 'yes'. I know I am, and have been since the middle '70's.

The flaw, if we can call it that, in the industry is, that MOST of the customers ARE hobbyists, therefore look to trade up, across, down etc perpetually. It's FUN to open a box with our latest toy inside.
Someone said to a friend of mine, "If you're in this business to sell to hobbyists, you will lose your *ss." You need to sell to 'customers' who want luxury goods.
The only problem there is, that those customers seem to be a small percentage of the market, which perpetuates the price/margin debate.

I only asked this because I wonder what everyone thinks. I don't have a store, so I am, while not ambivalent, not affected. I do empathise and sypathise with BM dealers these days.

Thanks for a great answer.

Larry

Gawdbless,

Years ago, THIEL sold more dollar volume, in their top end models than their lesser priced units. I know this seems to be a given to some, but since the price then was, (some 18 years ago) about ten times the retail to retail, they, at least found it surprising that they sold as many of the upper priced units as they did.
So, while this doesn't answer the question, I would say that Vandersteen will sell 'quite a few', pair during the life of the product.
If he's anything like JT, he's doing it because he loves it anyway, and enjoyed the challenge of making something special.
They are pretty cool looking aren't they?

Larry

RE Vandy's big gun

There are, amazingly enough, other models in that ionisphereic range from which to pick. Certainly, 'got rocks loyalists' will be all over them. I'd feign placing a number on units being moved short term. < 50 pairs in a year? More?

I wonder just how many of the top tiered units from any makers line up are sold on average, annually. On these shores or others.

I do tend to agree also that the greatest majority of 'high end audio' devices tend to reflect performance to expense of ownership more often than not. Amps, preamps, sources and cabling usually do reflect and validate their promises of performance to cost... and there are exceptions to the rule in each genre of course.

With speakers though, it does seem otherwise a bit more often. Overachievers there do continue to spring up to public attention more readily. Like as not it's a mere attribute of their portion of the system's overall performance, and how integral or impactful they can be to it.

I sure would love, for just one time to hear some $40 or $50K speakers all set up right... AND then hear some of lesser expense in the exact same setup. Or vice versa... just to hear what's what on that level. Just once.

BTW.... just how much total cost should be in a rig whose speakers are right at $50K, anyway? $50K? $100K $200K?

... and would they use 'em for HT? I bet someone would.

Blindjim,

Several years ago, when I WAS involved in retail, I put a $30K pair of speakers, as LR, a $9K center voice, and a pair of $18K rear speakers in a home theater set up. The amps were excellent quality too, with the total system coming in at WAY more than $150K.

The system that Rich was using for his debut of the 7's was, I believe in the $300K range.
One of the ezines reporting on this said so anyway.

As to how many pair, I wondered that about the Alexandras. Their Asian market is most likely much larger than the US market. It really is a pride of ownership mindset, with regard to owning expensive audio in the PAC rim. I would think that Vandersteen will sell several pairs there. Now, I also believe that the Alexandras as well as the 7's will only be made to order, with no stocking. Could be wrong on that, but letting $100K on the Wilsons, or even the $40K for the Vantersteens sit is suicide for a manufacturer.

Larry

Larry

Re "...letting $100K sit around is suicide..."

Probably. but it would sure seem one pair at least needs to be 'show ponies', huh? Maybe even two pairs.

Hmmmm. There's a demo deal for someone, down the road. Step right up folks... pristine shape, near no use and only with top eschelon gear... now only $39,999.

so what then is the big diff when going from say 10K speakers to 40K speakers, sonicly? Is it really a night and day thing, with all else being equal in the rig? By gosh it sure oughta be.

First and foremost, this is my first post after reading these forums for six years! So, hello to all…

I must be upfront and say that I own an audio store that began back in 1972. While I was not alive when the store opened, I was brought up to enjoy the benefits of the local audio stores and the people who work in them… oh, and the equipment too!

In my honest opinion, you are all correct. Prices are high, quality is down and the stores are less knowledgeable. But the question on my mind is, why?

The “audio store” used to be the forum location, not the Internet. People used to spend their free time checking out the new equipment, sharing what they know and just talking with others; face-to-face. That doesn’t happen anymore. It is more convenient to have a debate online than face-to-face. It is more convenient to spend a couple minutes on the computer than drive to the local store. It is less expensive to buy online than at the store.

For those dealers out there, we should be focusing on what made the audio stores successful in the past and adapt them to the present. The past offered us the “community”, the service (with technicians onsite), the experience of the sales staff and the equipment. Are we providing that to our clients? If not, I urge you to try and see what happens. Our store re-evaluated what we were doing two years ago and started putting more focus on the “old ways” and I can say we just finished the best year of sales in a ten year history. People are looking for a “community” and we all used to offer that. When we lost sight of that, our patrons moved to another source… the Internet.

To those of you who are not dealers… I urge you to give the local store another look. There are some of us who are trying to improve the industry and we need the support. So, support the local shops! If we, as a “community”, do not figure out how to balance the trade, then the “community” will die. Simple as that.

But don’t take my advice. Answer the questions yourselves… Where do you go to audition equipment? Where do you get your equipment repaired (especially the old stuff)? Where can you debate the tweaks? Etc…

This is a hobby. There is more to this than buying and selling equipment. When you play poker, you need the beer, peanuts, cigars and hot waitresses to make it fun. Same with audio… you need great service, good discussion and glowing tubes to make it complete.

All in all… if your local dealer is providing great service and knowledge, then give them your respect and help them stay alive. There is more to this “community” than a price.

Blindjim,

First, my perspective, so you'll know how flawed my interpretation is...and subjective.

I have heard everything from Wilson's best at $130K, to MBL's best, at I think, $119K, to the other mega priced speakers. When I heard these, on one occassion, I was at a dealer, (Wilson's), but heard them (his current best at the times) on numerous occassions, at the CES too. The MBL's only at the CES.
First, just comparing these megas,(I am sure others will pick from thousands of other megas) these two are very different speakers from one another, certainly design wise, as well as performance wise. To my ears, the each do different things well. The Wilsons are more dynamic, and have an obvious bass extention edge, both in terms of slam and frequency response. Yet, to my ears on the occassions that I have heard them, the Wilsons just don't seem to disappear completely. I asked my two cohorts and they both made that statement without prompting,(industry types) that they were not as transparent in terms of dissappearing as we might have thoughtthey would be. But you asked how megas differs from $10 to $40K speakers.
So, how are both different from the $10K--$40K speakers, of course leaving out diminishing returns because that should NOT be considered IMHO, because that brings in too many other thoughts, but we can discuss that off the site. They have more resolution at almost all levels of SPL, better micro dynamics, image density, front to back imaging, width of soundstage, (though the cabinet locations were, at least to my ears, again obvious on the Wilsons). Keep in mind that they are mind boggling good, by any standard, just this one issue of, I guess cabinet noise clues (?), and EVERYONE can have different thoughts, and I am sure they will. Maybe my samplings were both limited.
Down to earthly pricing,(ha)Let's compare them first to the THIEL CS5i, which I owned for several years, which cost about $12K in 1989 dollars. The Wilsons as you might expect have more resolution, so the clues as to 'where' things seem to happen in the sound stage become more well defined. Imagine a photo that is crystal clear, versus a polaroid. Though not a great example, telling nonetheless, the lesser speakers offer less resolution of the overall sound--same thing, different sense (hearing vs sight). The overall sense of realism is greater with the mega speakers, in terms of "Am I really there?" Real music, acoustic music for sure, to me, as an event, is sort of'unspectacular', its just, well, real music. Noone goes into a hotel lobby and hears a piano coming from the bar and says, "Oh my God, a real piano!" They can tell though, if they're careful listeners that it is a real piano and not a recording, because of the subtle, (think low level res) clues that they pick up on. So, with the Wilsons, those subtle clues are more abundant, therefore they sound more,'real'. This inspires a memory, which is, back during that era, I talked to JT about the 5's and told him that I thought that the CS5's had MUCH greater 'image density' than any of his previous models, and assumed it was because each driver was working more easily thoughout its frequency askance.
In the '90's I came to be very close to the Nearfield Acoustics, which cost up to $90K in those dollars. They too, (regardless of varying opinions) offered incredible dynamics and image density. (The largest had, I think 24, drivers operating from 65hz to 3Khz. Then 48 domes operating to above 35Khz. Then two 'depth charges' for subs, 2x18' subs times two. Whoa, bass extension.
People have faulted them for comb filter effects, (cancellations due to proximity)as well as various other perceived faults, but they did some things VERY well, and offered that incredible density, I mentioned. This is, to my ears absent in virtually all driver based speakers, with limited drivers. MORE IS BETTER?
God, I am going on like an idiot. Well, the differences, to me, is frequency extremes, (mostly bass) dynamic range, image density, soundstage, (width and depth). With these qualities comes greater tonal purity, at least on the better Mega priced speakers.
Like most engineering issues, there's nothing like throwing money into a solution. More, of course if done thoughtfull,should be better and better costs more.
Jim, I should have given you a three word answer, "Sense of realism."

Sorry to prattle....

Larry

Great post Rella, and a valid point about the way audio stores used to be the 'AudiogoN forums' before the internet. The internet has changed many types of business though, not just audio. Of the two small audio stores near me, one owner is not a conversationlist, or a very good businessman, so I have no issue not visiting him.

The other owner is a very nice guy, but is a bit further away, and doesn't carry many of the brands that interest me. In fact, looking at my system now, he doesn't carry any of the brands that I own, not even cables. I visit once in a while, because he is a very nice guy, and occasionally buy some tweak or tubes. The reason I don't go more often though because I feel like I'm wasting his time. I certainly don't use his store as a place to demo and then buy 'his gear' cheaper on-line, and I would never recommend that anyone do that. IMHO that is a form of stealing (time) and is unethical.

Now to answer your questions:

Where do you go to audition equipment?

My living room....using the AudiogoN buy 'n' try method. I have found over the years that there is no substitute for listening to gear in my own system/room. I have mostly purchased used, but I have bought new gear from 'Internet dealers' who allow me to try gear in my own system before buying.

Where do you get your equipment repaired (especially the old stuff)?

Bob Backert is excellent. He does great repairs and modifications.

Where can you debate the tweaks? Etc…

Right here in the AudiogoN forums. Actually, I've noticed that I don't read my Stereophile magazine much anymore either. Times have certainly changed, though I'm not sure if it's for the better. I've had more gear go through my house in the last 5 years than in the previous 25 years in this hobby. In some cases, it's fun getting to hear a lot of 'heavy hitters' right in my own room. On the other hand, it can be a drag always re-arranging the rig.

Cheers,
John

hi john:

i'm surprised that you haven't found several components that you are willing to keep for a period of five years.

01-16-09: Mrtennis
hi john:

i'm surprised that you haven't found several components that you are willing to keep for a period of five years.

Five years is a lifetime in this hobby, especially with so many toys to try. Currently my oldest component is my speakers at 3.5 years. I think I have been slowing down the merry-go-round now that the economy is struggling. I've downsized, and will continue to do so. I don't see much buying in my future, only selling.

Cheers,
John

Five years is not even a blip on the radar. Been at this since 1957.

back to the thread:

manufacturers have disenfranchised dealers for various reasons in the past. perhaps this is another nail in the coffin for audio dealers.

some manufacturers who have used a dealer network are instead, going direct.

'Us' audiophiles in terms of musical equipment sales are not even a grain of sand in the Sahara.The biggest selling album in the US last year was Radiohead with 28,400 sold, compared to 1 billion downloads (I am assuming legal downloads).
Why do we always assume the latest and greatest usually more expensive to be better? At the moment there are 9 Jl Audio subs for sale here on Audiogon, those have them say they are the best money can buy.Why are those new/nearly units for sale so soon after purchase?(few dealers' selling them also in the 9 I mentioned)
I am out of the 'buying new' vastly too expensive for me scene for the most part, except for maybe a cd player.I am, I believe fortunate in that when my 8" or 18" cones of my horn speakers need replacing I can just call Madisound/parts express for easy (cheap) replacement. My beloved speakers cost a fraction (5% approx) of the high end Alexandria's (et al) and are infinitely upgradeable until I die (probably), or Fostex go out of business, and if they are far down performance wise against the mega buck big boys, then I can live with that.

01-19-09: Ferrari
Five years is not even a blip on the radar. Been at this since 1957.

Ferrari, I believe you have misinterpretted the conversation. I was responding to MrT's query of components that I have owned for over 5 years. I have owned gear for over 5 years previously, but none of my current gear has been in my system for over 5 years.

FWIW, you have obviously been at this for a long time, kudos. I wasn't even alive in 1957. I have been enjoying this hobby since 1976 though.

Cheers,
John

Godbless

I'm sure you know this, but I'll say it anyway...

hype = sales.

Latest & greatest (?) = Sales.

System synergy (or lack their of) = sales

Money woes = sales

... also likes and dislikes, etc. all equal sales. Popularity too accounts for merch trading hands. On any given day look at the numbers of REL, Velodyne, Cardas, Shunyata, BW & Pass gear available.

Should numbers of listings indicate an item good or not so good?

I also think as there are numerous BM outlets for these same items, the volume being traded here makes a statement as well. Either BM's will adjust to the webs influence, and/or become more flexible with their cash paying customers, or they'll miss out on a share that could well have kept them going a while longer.

Around my local area, one can expect only 20% off on demos but with warranty yet no in house service. That's at just one place. The other's don't do even that. So my general area sucks for BM deals, and service. Just one has customer - people skills worth a darn too. Far as I'm concerned, and a number of others about me and here on A'gone, there's only one place to even try looking to for A&V gear sales. Consequently, the Web and phone calls to makers selling direct is truly the only way to go... but I still try to deal with the one BM worth going to here.

People in general, respond to being treated with respect. They also respond to being treated otherwise. The response merits both paths accordingly.