Subwoofers - Final Thoughts with Martin Logan ESL 13A

@audphile1 Did the 4 feet, flashlight, can't get more than 72" separation and running the DAC at your suggested Minimum 0. Sounds good but I still may try a sub. Trying to sell off some gear in order to do so. Daughter still has 1/2 left to go at university! if you know of anyone looking for a super low hour, pristine condition Aurender N200, let me know!

@ozzy 

That is why I suggest first finding out how low your speaker will actually perform.

OK, I still have to figure out how to do this first.

@rauliruegas 

Velodyne - DDP-10+ - Digital Drive Plus 1250W Active Subwoofer

At $5,600 each, I think these are out of my reach at present but thank you for all you help and suggestions!

 

Running the main speaker’s full range and augmenting the lowest frequencies with the sub(s) is the best of both worlds.
 

@ozzy +1

subs used to boost bass will just completely break a good setup 

 

@navyachts definitely try a sub but I’m surprised you’re selling your Aurender. What do you have in mind for a source to replace the N200?

@audphile1 

 What do you have in mind for a source to replace the N200?

The M1 as network player. My Coda preamp is up for grabs as well. I'm using the M1 for that too. I like separates the most, but I want some decent subs as well, so it's a bit of a tradeoff.

Dear @ozzy  : I respect your opinions.

 

" Running the main speaker’s full range and augmenting the lowest frequencies with the sub(s) is the best of both worlds. "

 

Unfortunatelly it does not exist those " both worlds " and probably you don't understood what I posted about that very high ML crossover 300hz frequency that procuce a very high Intermodulation Distortion that contaminates all the ML quality response.

What that ML is doing is to develops " trash "allover the MLspeakers through that severe IMD.

When that " trash " is out of that ML woofers then the midrange, midbass and high frequency ranges now arepristine, with clear sound, nearer to the original signal and shiny all that system as never before:NO MATTERS WHAT.

 

@navyachts  deserves the best from his room/system.Btw, Velodyne is not the only subs that can help you inside your budget.Only look for a sealed subwoofer design.

 

R.

@rauliruegas OK, will do, thank you! I was looking at the BalanceForced 210 model by Martin Logan as they may be easier to integrate with my mains.

Dear @audphile1  :  I like your Wilson speakers and the Boulder electronic that I already listened.

 

Even that your Sabrina is  IMHO better than the ML the subwoofer issue is the same as is the same the trouble with the Sabrina developed IMD and you can't change it in the way you posted.

 

Look from the same expert ( not an audiophile as us ) that I posted his explanation:

 

" 

TYPES OF "MAIN" SPEAKERS

In addition to all the above, there is the complex issue of the "main" speaker you are coupling to. There are essentially 6 types of speakers that exist:

1) sealed
2) port in the front
3) port in the bottom
4) port in the back
5) a dipole, which is a flat panel such as an electrostatic (Sound Lab, Magnepan, Quad, Beveridge, Martin Logan, etc.)
6) an true omnidirectional system such as the MBL or the BEOLAB 5.

Each of these speaker types couples somewhat differently to the room, and certainly to a sub in that room, and therein lie the problems in acceptable integration.

A port is ALWAYS nothing more than a cheap way to attempt to get free bass out of an enclosure and /or driver that's too small. It's a holdover from the 1930's when because of driver inefficiencies (especially when compared to today's units) you had to do everything possible to increase the useable output over the desired range of low frequencies.

At one level, all the guyz want 9 foot speakers in the living room (read "man-cave"). All spouses, of whatever gender, want tiny 3" speaker cubes that disappear, but expect 9-foot results from them. Since they haven't repealed ohms law or any other laws of physics while we were sleeping, the only way to get correct sound is to move a correct amount of air.

Lets examine ported speakers. We'll start with the worst case, the port in the front. At mid bass frequencies, say 50-80 Hz, the LF driver moves IN the cabinet, the air in the cabinet is elastic, and the port air moves out of the cabinet. Because of the frequency at which the cone is moving, by the time the cone moves out (forward) again, the port air is now moving out, so in front of the cabinet the two air pressure sources sum together and you get a fake bass "bump" or "boost".

As you go lower and lower in frequency, at some low frequency the air pressure from the LF driver and the air pressure from the port are exactly opposite each other, so they cancel, and there is no more audio at that frequency: it disappears.

When the manufacturer of a speaker cabinet defines the frequency response (i.e., 37 Hz - 20kHz +/- 3dB) this is what is defined by the entire arrangement of the port and the air in the cabinet and the driver. At some low frequency the port air is exactly out of phase with the driver air pressure and since they cancel, there is NO output from the cabinet into the room. Therefore with a ported cabinet, the entire sloppy concept is this juggling game between the response of the drivers under air pressure, the passive crossover inside the box, the port size and placement.

You must understand that ANY driver goes down to 0 Hz, or DC. If you put a battery across a speaker, the cone moves out and stays there. If you were to have a DC coupled power amp feeding a speaker - ANY speaker, from a 1" dome tweeter to an 18" rock n roll stage bass driver - and you put 4 Hz into it, it would simply move back and forth at 4 Hz. Of course in order to actually "hear" the audio it would have to be in the generally accepted passband of 20-20,000 Hz and the cone diameter would have to be enough to actually move some air in the room. So it is the overall combination of the driver size, the excursion, the box size, (therefore the air back pressure) and many other factors that determines the overall response of that "speaker" AS AN ENTITY.

That means IF you were to simply put those same frequencies through the mains and the sub (that means with no crossover, and this is the mistake that nearly everyone makes) you would now have 3 sources of LF energy and differing phase: the 'main' LF driver, the port, and the sub, all fighting with each other in the time domain. A further corollary is that since the air inside the [mains] cabinet is elastic, the phase relationship of the port air to the driver air is also a sliding one; that means it's "out of phase" — and smearing — over a wider range of frequencies than you might think.

If the port is on the back, again, a cheap attempt to use the back wave bouncing off a wall to give 'additional' bass, you have the ADDITIONAL issue of the transit time it takes for the back port pressure (already delayed because of the elasticity) to leave the cabinet, travel back, hit a wall, and bounce back around the front of the cabinet again; therefore this LF wave MIGHT be "in phase" with the front driver BUT BE 360 OR EVEN 720 DEGREES LATE; therefore it sounds like the bass frequencies are ok in the frequency domain but the IMPULSE RESPONSE is now muddied.

Also, in the case of back ported or (type 5) dipole speakers, since the path length from the back of the speaker to the wall and bouncing back around to the front of the speaker is a fixed physical entity, at some frequencies you are adding and at some frequencies you are canceling: you have simply made a physical/mechanical frequency comb filter that you can't do anything about. Sound Lab's answer to this (for use with their flat panel electrostatic speakers, which are dipoles) is they sell you a "Sallie", which is an absorber to absorb the entire back wave output of the electrostatic panel. Since now there is no comb filtering; all you are therefore hearing is the front signal.

PORTED SUBS

A ported sub for home use is even more wrong than ported mains. Now you would be attempting to acoustically add together in the room at least SIX low frequency sources with differing phase and frequency slope conditions: the LF drivers in your two mains, their ports, the sub driver, and its port. In addition, since it's a bandpass it cannot go down low enough for serious Home Theater effects. (that typically means a real 20Hz or close to it.)

In some cases such as a bandpass sub used in a club or on a modest-sized stage in your local pub, you are most concerned with efficiency and not with getting frequency response "flat" down to 20 Hz; therefore a correctly set up bandpass box that might roll off at 35 to 45 Hz is quite sufficient and also very efficient for the defined purpose. And again, as a point of reference, "flat" response in the frequency domain is FAR AND AWAY the LEAST important phenomena: impulse response in the time domain is the most important, but it cannot be measured with a handheld meter therefore almost everyone simply ignores it. If you're interested in learning about the newest (and evolving) pro sound system / stage methods of "steering" bass, Dave Rat has some very cool videos here:

part 1  www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwLH7zP6Lwo

part 2  www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-3pURYOwfw

part 3  www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSZK9Altvm8

There's a nice article here:
www.prosoundweb.com/channels/study_hall/tech-topic-friends-in-low-places

But back to our Home / HI-FI / 2-channel / Audiophile / Surround Sound systems: There is ONLY ONE truly correct way to "add a sub" to a system in an controlled listening room situation: you must correctly cross over the 2 sealed cabinets; and their timing must be correct. ANY other method will lessen the focus and clarity and imaging you have tried so hard to preserve.

I have many clients and customers with extremely exotic high-end 2-channel systems that are all chasing the holy grail of 3D holographic sound imaging, and until they follow my distinct guidelines they are never completely satisfied with the results.  "

 

Audiophiles as us and MUSIC lovers as us need to have as a fact it's a MUST to have or  develop an EQUILIBRIUM between OBJECTIVITY and SUBJECTIVITY

in all our room/systems decisions to achieve the best overall quality MUSIC level performance that puts us nearer to the recording and NO it's not other " road " to achieve that target but all these is each to each one of us and not what I said.

 

Please read this link and even the whole thread:

 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058

 

R.

@rauliruegas great post(s) thanks. 

I was just about to purchase a pair of Martin Logan BalancedForced 210s and the guy, who is a ML dealer said that they are only good with home theater and that they are not fast enough for my speakers, He recommends a pair of REL S/812s 

@navyachts : Pleaso do it you a favor and stay away of REL that it’s not a true sealed subwoofer but with a passive radiator that almost function as a ported one.

 

In this link you can read about and the reference by REL on Home Theater use.

 

Here this could be your game:

 

SB16-Ultra Subwoofer | SVS

 

Btw this is not true about the ML subs on not faster enough:  " and that they are not fast enough for my speakers "

 

SoundStage! Max dB - Fast Bass, Slow Bass - Myth vs. Fact (06/1999)

 

R.

 

The M1 as network player. My Coda preamp is up for grabs as well. I'm using the M1 for that too. I like separates the most, but I want some decent subs as well, so it's a bit of a tradeoff.
 

I encourage you to spend a very good amount of time using the Bricasti network renderer before you sell your Aurender N200. I’ve used the M3 long enough to realize how crappy the network card is as a streamer (used as Roon endpoint as well as with Mcinnect). When I bought my N200 it just blew away the network renderer without breaking a sweat using the stock USB cable that I found in the Aurender box. I’ve gone back and forth many times and there’s just simply no comparison. 
I’ve also used the M3 preamp section. The Bricadti is excellent as far as DAC preamp sections go but it just doesn’t compete with a good preamp when it comes to soundstage layering and depth. The presentation is more natural with a preamp as well. 

I would just pick up a good tube preamp to use with the Coda amp. 
 

I owned CSiB and it’s an amazing amplifier (same amp as your No.8). It is fast, articulate, engaging and super clear sounding. No grain, no glare. 

I think selling your N200 to buy a sub is a mistake. Selling your Coda preamp gives you options - try a good tube pre ir get a sub. Just my opinion. 

@rauliruegas thank you for the compliments sir. 

A pair of Martin Logan Montis with powered woofers were the speakers I replaced with the Sabrinas.

I don’t disagree with what you’re saying. Problem is, every room is different. Every listener is different. What is OPs point of reference for bass? Is it a live concert? Is it the bass he gets in his car? 
Let’s keep in mind the high end speaker manufacturers have an objective to make the speaker sound as coherent as possible in a variety of rooms. That usually means they’re after accurate sound more than they are after blowing your wig off with bass. Quality over quantity  

As to Martin Logans they’re not easy to set up properly due to being dipole with powered woofers. I’ve heard several models including 12A and 13A in different rooms with diff components. There was no lack of bass.

Wilsons are difficult to place correctly as well due to time alignment - sensitive to placement changes less than an inch depending on where they are in a room. I can place my speakers to overload the room with bass. That’s easy. Most difficult is to find placement that provides coherent presentation. 
The only thing we can do is try to strike that balance.

Then there are variables such as type of music you listen to and recording quality. 

@audphile1 Thanks, I will heed your advice!

@rauliruegas Thank you for the tips on the SVS SB16. I know with the RELs they prefer placement either on the inside or the outside of the main speakers. Do you think this would be the case with a pair of the SVS's or would I have to revert to the "Crawl Method" and place these where I find nulls in the room? I presume you also prefer wired subs over wireless?

The other subs I was considering were the KEF KC92s. Two 9" balanced forced woofers. Any though on these?

KEF KC92

@rauliruegas would this be sufficient alternative to the SVS SB16?

SVS SB4000

I was only considering the physical dimensions; it's a little bit smaller. Or would the 16 be the way to go?

 

You can feed the sub from your preamp RCA out if you’re using XLR outs to drive the amp

@audphile1 I see the Coda has 2 RCA outs (L/R) and the M1 only has 1 (L/R) out. Is it better to have the two outs if you're running two subwoofers?

Hmm, maybe I should I keep the Coda? 

The RELs leads hook up to the power amps speaker's output connections, but I think I have been talked out of RELs.

I wouldn’t sell any components if I were you. You may regret it.
Try a sub first from the dealer that has a good return policy (Music Direct, Upscale, Crutchfield). You can use the Coda preamp to drive the sub(s) if you have 2 RCA outs. See how it works with your preamp. 
Also…your dealer stating the woofers in the ML speakers aren’t fast he’s full of 💩 

ML finally, after many years, were able to get the panel/woofer integration correct. 

rauliruegas,

" Pleaso do it you a favor and stay away of REL that it’s not a true sealed subwoofer but with a passive radiator that almost function as a ported one." REL No. 31 and 32s are true sealed subwoofers.

@ricred1 sorry, I missed the point, are you in agreement with @rauliruegas ?

I'm starting to get cold feet about this whole subwoofer thing, There's so much conflicting information. Maybe tone controls are the answer...LOL!

I'm starting to get cold feet about this whole subwoofer thing,
 

LOL

@navyachts you essentially have tone controls now. Turn up the bass level knob in the back of the ML woofer cabinets. 😂

navyachts,

"@ricred1 sorry, I missed the point, are you in agreement with @rauliruegas ?" I submit audio is personal and there are no absolutes. I personally don't like REL subwoofers that use a "passive radiator", because my listening room is upstairs and I could hear the radiator. My point was REL does have "true" sealed subwoofers(No.31 and 32). In my system, I prefer sealed REL subwoofers and I use dual REL No. 32 subwoofers. In my room/system, it isn't just about bass, but how adding the No. 32s have improved everything across the audio spectrum and the soundstage. I prefer the 32s to every previously owned subwoofer...dual JL Audio F110, dual JL Audio F112 v2, HSU, Martin Logan Depth i, and SVS 16 Ultras. I prefer my system with subwoofers, some don't.

Dear @navyachts  :  The SVS App will be tell you all about the placement of 2 subs and everything around:

 

SVS App Specs:

• The most powerful and flexible Bluetooth controlled subwoofer DSP app, works with both iOS and Android operating systems.
• Easiest and most convenient way to adjust crossover frequencies, parametric EQ, polarity, room gain and all other bass management functions.
• Three convenient custom presets allow for perfect tuning in any room or system, from your favorite seat.

• Single tap adjustment for controlling variable port tuning with standard, extended and sealed modes.
• Unique bidirectional feedback shows adjustments in real time on both app and subwoofer interface.
• Easy-to-follow tutorial provides clear guidance for all functions

You need a High-Pass filter for your main ML speakers, this is critical.

 

Yes the 4000 can function for your room/system

 

R.

 

R.

@ricred1 at almost $13K a pop you better prefer them to the measly priced SVS 16 Ultras :-)

@rauliruegas thank you!

It's what I prefer, but it certainly doesn't mean they're for everyone. In my opinion it has nothing to do with price, but what I value. Everything impacts a system and in my particular case, purchasing REL No. 32 subwoofers and a Antipodes Oladra music server has been two of the best decisions I've made for my system. I submit SVS and RELs impact systems differently. 

 

I have been following this thread to read how different opinions can be.

Stat users are either in the ML camp or "other"- Soundlab, vintage Quad or whatever. 

Your 13A's to my ears can sound very impressive with basic placement according to room allowance.- living space or dedicated.

If it's NOT dedicated, then you accept what you have and enjoy.

That's including bass response.  As audphile1 mentioned- those things need to be pushed out into the room. If space allowed doing 1/3 of room or Cardas might be ear pleasing.

Sub or subs will always  make the experience more enjoyable.

It doesn't need to be so technical as implied here.

Just my thoughts. I use ML's previous generation, bottom of the "premier" line Theos-passive woofers. They are supported by 2 ancient REL's but alone deliver listeanable performance thanks to placement and SOURCES.

I can just dream for know about  some giant Soundlabs and a swarm of REL No 32's.

@ricred1 Enjoy!

@tablejockey

I can just dream for know about some giant Soundlabs and a swarm of REL No 32’s.

LOL, me too! Thank you and @audphile1 for the commonsense advice. I will follow through with that next listening (playtime) session!

@navyachts You got it! Keep us posted please 

Dear  @audphile1   : Overall agree with you however there is one issue where almost does not matters the room/system you own and this is the IMD developed by speaker woofers if the speaker passive internal crossover is high as in the ML or your Sabrina. Wilson is no exception to that IMD.

 

Now:  " Turn up the bass level knob in the back of the ML woofer cabinets. "

 

If @navyachts  makes that then the IMD will goes higher and higher, IMHO it's not the " solution ". There is no way to lower that ML woofers IMD.

 

R.

Dear @ricred1 : In this link and in any REL information you can’t find out which is the 31/32 THD that is essentially a meaning of the true quality subwoofer performance levels. If you have information about then please share with us:

 

No.32-One-Sheet-August-17-Vfinal.pdf

 

In the REL manual we can read the main target of REL subwoofers:

" A REL is designed to augment the performance of " full range " speaker systems in order to provide linear response below 15 hz. "

There is no information which kind of " linear " response below 15 hz ¡ ¡ ¡ ? ? ? when it says in the specs that is down 15 hz with a -6db deviation. That has no sense.

That " augment " means that the " full range " speakers " continue to play " full range " with high MD and now you have two bass sources playing together from 90hz and belows it ¡ ¡ ¡ ¡ ¡ Terrible for say the least and then you pay over 10K for one Rel unit.

 

I respect all your opinions but as mine is only an opinion that IMHO is full of misunderstood in this particular subject and REL specifically.

 

Btw @tablejockey " swarm ( 4 or more subs in the room ) function as the Harman link posted in this thread shows only to even the low bass response all over the room ( if you have only one seat position and cares only about your seat position you don’t need more than 2 subs as confirmed the Harman link. ) and it does not look for bass quality response and/or the quality response of the main speakers and its woofers developed IMD: swarm just does not helps about. Get it? and yes I can be wrong but this is my whole take rigth now .

 

Thismis the link:

Microsoft Word - whitepaper10.doc

 

R.

 

"@ricred1  I prefer the 32s to every previously owned subwoofer...dual JL Audio F110, dual JL Audio F112 v2, HSU, Martin Logan Depth i, and SVS 16 Ultras."

ricred1, you are the only staunch sub user I can recall who prefers a -6dB sub-bass speaker to the -3dB subwoofers you've owned. 

Could you describe where you positioned those subwoofers in your room?

@rauliruegas I get it. But…I’m enjoying the music with my system and I do not hear IMD. Neither do I need to obsess over it because…
According to Wilson Audio…

The tweeter is isolated internally from the midrange and woofer drivers with the latter two transducers sharing the same internal volume. Wilson Audio notes that in this configuration any potential for intermodulation distortion is minimized by prudent driver selection and precise porting of the enclosure. 

This sounds like truth as I cannot detect any distortion. The drivers cross over seamlessly. 
 

I’m very thorough when it comes to my system but I think we’re attempting to shoot down a fly with a bazooka here…

By the way I looked at your system page and I’m very impressed! Gorgeous system and some collection of cartridges you got there…enjoy!

The one thing I like about the Rel is that you can potentially hook it up and use it as support when watching movies. Is this an option with the SVS 16? Does this mean finding s radio shack to rig some connection?

I should add that I just have a basic tube amp, not a receiver with all sorts of "outs" so I essentially be hooking the sub up to a soundbar for tv use.

m-db,

My subwoofers were set-up by my dealer using REW, listening, and the No. 32 parametric equalizer. They are on the outside of my speakers.

"you are the only staunch sub user I can recall who prefers a -6dB sub-bass speaker to the -3dB subwoofers you’ve owned." Subwoofers aren't just about bass and that's why I prefer the No. 32s. It’s what I prefer based on actually owning several subwoofers. As I always say, no absolutes in audio, only preferences. I don’t understand why people care what people spend their money on. It’s simple, if you don’t like REL subwoofers, don’t purchase them.

@ricred1 - by the way, that’s a beautiful system you have there!

navyachts,

Thanks for your kind words.

rauliruegas,

"Dear @ricred1 : In this link and in any REL information you can’t find out which is the 31/32 THD that is essentially a meaning of the true quality subwoofer performance levels. If you have information about then please share with us:"

Sorry and I don't want to be rude, but I simply own REL subwoofers. I don't work for them, I'm not a REL fanboy(I don't like their subs with a passive radiator), and I don't get into measurements. In my system/room, I prefer the NO. 32s because adding them has improved everything across the audio spectrum. The 32s disappear and you can't tell they are on, until you turn them off. I'm not telling anyone to buy them or saying they are the best for everyone.

ricred1,

My apologies that my lack of specificity led you to feel the need to justify your personal taste. You have been very clear about your current level of satisfaction with your systems speakers. 

Could you describe where in your room you positioned the dual JL Audio F112 v2's the SVS Ultra's and the Martin Logan Depth i and HSU subwoofers?

Example: Between the speakers, corners of the front wall, same plane next to the speakers etc? 

 

@m-db check out his virtual system here on Audiogon

Dear @ricred1  " " I don't want to be rude, but I simply own REL subwoofers. I don't work for them, I'm not a REL fanboy(I don't like their subs with a passive radiator), and I don't get into measurements.  ""

NO, you are not, you don't have to worry about. This is a dialogue.

 

" I don't get into measurements. " Well, I posted in this thread that always it's essential that every audiophile you included need to mantain a good equilibrium between our subjectivity and the objectivity ( specs, measurements, technical issues and the like ) and I can see that you have not that kind of equilibrium and go " walking " through 100% subjectivity as: " I like it " or that's the way I like it. Nothing wrong with that becaus that's you and that you use your room/system as HTS too and that's what REL site says and what REL makes always but REL is not truly competitive against say this today Velodyne that by specs and measurements puts on shame any REL subwoofer:

 

Digital Drive Plus - Velodyne Acoustics

 

There is no contest down there and only the 60K+ per unit  Magico subs are near the Velodyne with a 0.4% THD or the fantastic subwoofer coming by Evolution Acoustics that goes -3db at 7hz-100hz and -6d at 3hz to 100hz.

 

That Evolution subs unit comes with 4 treated PAPER  15" woofers and each sub weogths around 300kg and very expensive as are the Wilson subwoofers too. ( why treated paper instead other today materials?, please read my next post).

Those are two examples why objectivity is so important even that you don't care about and that is up to you and I respect that.

 

R.

m-db,

"Could you describe where in your room you positioned the dual JL Audio F112 v2’s the SVS Ultra’s and the Martin Logan Depth i and HSU subwoofers?"

No, I’m not going to continue to go back and forth with you. 

rauliruegas.

You are correct, Velodyne are the best subwoofers! 

Dear @audphile1  :  I could think that owning the Wilson Sabrina you already know from where came the today design or which are its roots. Any way this is the history:

 

first that D. Wilson designed his first speaker he was working by several years as recording engineering for different labels ( I own 3-4 different LPs recorded by D.Wilson that when I bougth it I was almost ignorant not only who was D. Wilson but many other audio main subjects. ).

The DW decided to design and manufacture a proffesional small monitor lovely speaker that was named Watt and that was used for many LP recording studios and latter on by audiophiles and had so success with the Watt that when all the people were asking for that Watt speaker but with more extended bass range and DW designed the Puppie ( bass unit ) that had great success too till the Watt Puppie VI. The Sabrina came from there in today version, so very fine " pedigree ".

No problem if you can't be aware of the IMD in the Sabrina even that it's down there and this is not the matters of this post but here the J.Atkinson real time measurements that confirms what I'm saying due its around 350hz woofer crossover frequency. E ven that a truly fine speaker:

 

" Wilson Audio Specialties Sabrina loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

 

In the other side, yes I'm enjoying my " old " whole system that when I bougth the ADS L2030 Proffesional Monitor speakers I was totally ignorant what  I bougth but this really special ADS speakers , as your Sabrina, has its own history.

 

Things are that in those old times ( early 80's ) Telarc Recording LP label ask to ADS to design and build a dedicated monitor according Telarc needs and it comes not the L2030's but a customer design with main speaker and subwoofer that were paired by Threshold big class A amplifiers designed by today N.Pass.

Telarc was happy but they ask for more and ADS introduce to Telarc in the customer design L2030 and the L1530 and theese Proffesional Monitors were the ones used in around 70 pressed Telarc different scores.

I born and live in México city and at the USA border in Laredo,TX an audio big store saler offered me the ADS L2030 that was only in exibition but only in passive way so I never heard and I bougth it because impressed me with out its big grille and bougth it: only subjectivity and ignorant of the L2030.

 

Well this ADS speaker is a true full range one with -5db at 16hz to 30khz. Its driver units are unique even for today top standards:

with two  14" PAPER pulp woofers ( as the today Evolution subs. Paper pulp has the best quality performance material that it's not outperformed by today other materialsssssss reproducing bass range: period. ) wired in parallel in different and closed " house " ( the overall speaker design is not only sealed one but each driver acoustic suspension design.).

Been a Professional Monitor the L2030 was designed with two midrange options: Line source and Point source along the single Tweeter. In Line Source mode the speakers runs the midrange through four midrange silk domes where 3 are the auxiliar drivers and one a very special main midrange that comes with bigger magnet and along the silk dome special Tweeter whe in Point Source mode runs only the main midrange with the tweeter where both driver are not coaxil but extremely close in between.

The main midrange silk dome and the silk dome tweeter where made expressily for ADS in Germany and both drivers are unique. The 1" silk dome has 24K Gauss as its motor ¡ ¡ ¡  The linearity true linearity of these two drivers is just exeptional and almost free of distortions.

My L2030 are up graded by me in this way:

 

"" These L 2030 was designed by Mike Kelly ( Aerial speakers ) and till today it match all my priorities.

It is " heavy " tweaked to do that: first it has " three hands " ( internally ) of a insulation/antivibrational treatment ( like a white paint. I can't remember the ingredients. ) from Acoustical Magic Company ( it works marvelous ) inside all the box ( a big one box: 58-5/8" ( H ) x 27-1/4" (W) x 13-1/8" (D) ).

It is internally hard wired with Silver Oval by Analysis Plus cable and KCAG by Kimber Kable. 

I take out the crossover ( now is external ) and change all the parts: resistors ( Powertron by Vishay. ), all silver air core solid ribbon ( 5.5 cms. of pure silver. Almost 2kg. of silver in the bigest one. ) Alpha-Core inductors , WIMA FKP 1 and KEMET caps  in the crossover, the speakers cables goes soldered directly to the crossover parts. This speaker crossover is tri-hard-wired from the  amps output to the 3-way crossover parts and speaker drivers. 

In reality are three separate/stand alone crossovers: one for the tweeter, one for the midrange and the other for the woofer, all these hard-wired directly to the amps ( no connectors. )

I'm only not biamp my system ( with the subs. ) but these ADS main/satellite speakers are true tri-wired in hard-wire directly from the amps to each crossover parts in the three way speaker design all the way down to the amplifier output.

I change the internal damping glass fiber by 10kg ( each one ) of long hair 100% virgin wool and change the fabric cloth of the grille for a " transparent one ".

Both speakers have at the rear-center the Antiresonant Vibration System by MICROSCAN model TM-8 that works from 20hz to 1.5Khz.

These L 2030 have: One acoustic suspension 1" silk dome tweeter, one main acoustic suspension 2" silk dome midrange, three auxiliar acoustic suspension 2" silk dome midranges ( similar to the main midrange but with a less powerful magnet. ) and two long-excursion acoustic suspension ( sealed. ) paper 14" woofers.

These are exceptional drivers especially the tweeter/main midrange ones.

These L2030 midrange design permit to " run " the speakers on " point source " mode ( tweeter and main midrange ) or through a " weighted " line source mode ( tweeter plus the 4 midranges. ), in this last " fashion " is how I have it ( hard-wired too. ). Its efficiency is 95dbs.  """

 

The main speakers are paired with a very old true Reference M:Levinson 20.6 monobloks designed by legendary J.Curl and these amps are up graded too and between other things and due that the pure class A are coupled my capacitor I changed that input capacitor for a way lower capacitanse Wima FKP1 cap ( better that even the copper Teflon Vcaps ( I tested and the Wima outperformed the over 300 dollars Vcaps for only 10 Wima dollars and it's with this cap change that the high pass filter for the L2030 happens so no additional stage for the high pass crossover. The signal comes directly from the phonolinepreamp and the signal to my Velodyne subwoofers comes directly too from that same phonolinepreamp and I'm croosing the subs/main at around 80hz, just a beauty. My Velodyne subs are not the latest model but are the last Velodyne where the woofer drivers are builded with paper pulp material similar to the L2030 woofers and to the Evolution today subwoofers. Go figure ¡ ¡ if I'm enjoying my room system. where I'm nearer to the recording that never before ( only two self powered subs. ).

Due that the 3-way L2030 drivers are wired all in parallel the amps looks around 1.7ohms impedance and the monobloks 20.6 puts  around 500 watts pure class A , nothing alter these monobloks at any SPL as nothing alter the L2030 response at any SPL. In some of my personal test proccess and with some tracks inside that test proccess I make some test with 97db SPL at seat position ( near field position ) with peaks at over a little 106db and I listened to that so high SPL only by a few minutes due that's only a performance quality test.

R.

@ricred1  : Yes¡ ¡ ¡, certainly not you are wrong about: Velodyne is only a name as is REL or Sonus Faber or other names just names.

Maybe I have an advatage over you and this is that I always am willing to learn from any one including new comers/roockies. Eacc single day is a learning one for me.

 

I'm a MUSIC lover not a hardware lover but we need that hardware to listen MUSIC.

 

R.

I use the same approach as Elliot. High pass the input to my amp at 50 Hz and set the sub for the same. I have a Rythmic 15 in sealed sub that integrates well with my LRS or ProAcs. 
 

You might also look at GR Research supple subs. Lots of panel speaker folks use them.

@rauliruegas thank you. And yes I’m aware of Wilson Audio roots. And I did read that stereophile review and J.A’s measurements section. No speaker is perfect. 

@g2the2nd thanks, do you mean GR Research "Servo" subs?

Yep Servo. Not Supple.