@joeyfed55 I was trying to keep away from RELs but I'm glad you are happy! $7800 subs with $12000 speakers, big investment!
@hedwigstheme I was thinking the other way around 3 - 4 KEFs but not sure how the Swarm would integrate with the ESLs.
@audphile1 Hey, nice to hear from ya, hope all is well! I have tried numerous ways to tweak the bass on the MLs. From the Perfect Bass Kit, to the dials on the back. I am not savvy enough (yet) to make adjusts with the ARC Genesis software, but I did send the files into a tech at Paradigm/Anthem AV support for them to tweak and I just can't seem to get it right. Yes, I have had subwoofers before and had trouble integrating them, but I thought I'd give it on last ditch attempt as I feel something is missing here.
I had ML Spires in the past, with only one 10" woofer and it had more bass than the 11As with two 10" woofers, didn't need subs.
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@audphile1 appreciate the advice. I will try and play around a bit this weekend there just isn’t a lot of room to move stuff. It’s a very small space.
@sgordon1 - thanks, I was unaware, I will check it out.
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@elliottbnewcombjr thank you for your advice and the bass tracks. I’ll hunt them down on Tidal later today!
I am not much of a techie, so could you explain to me more or attach a link regarding what to look for in the way of a "Dedicated Crossover"? How does it work?
You also mention a stereo pair of subs, do you have a recommendation? Would the KEF KC92s work for this? And would they be on the inside or the outside on the FL/FR speakers?
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@elliottbnewcombjr What a wonderful story/advice, thank you (& Donna) for sharing, along with all the great photos (love those speaker cabinets). I will continue to persevere!
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@audphile1 so I toed in the speakers a bit more moved the chair closer to the speakers. They are now 6’ apart, 33" off the back wall and I’m sitting about 12’ away and yes, I’m hear a tad more bass as I move closer in.
It really seems to be about the music here too. I played Deep Bas by Niels & Sam recommended by @elliottbnewcombjr and I heard good clarity and detail but not Deep Bass as the title states. Then I listen to The Hidden Camera by Photek and An Evening In Dallas by Joe Sample and you could feel the bass pound the floor.
I would like to be able to tweak the bass myself with the Genesis ARC program, but I don’t know anything about frequency response graphs and all that stuff. I have looked around the web and can’t seem to find much on this?
@m-db thanks for your input. I wouldn’t mind trying out the Swarm set-up, but it used to be $2,500 now I see it’s $4,400 and I would want white, so it’s more for a custom color. I could do a couple of used KEFs for around $1,600.
Thanks for the Audioholics article. I think I just need to "Crawl" outta this rabbit hole, maybe trade it all in for a Sonos system and call it a day!
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@sgordon1 Yes, I have done the "Tilt!" Thanks.
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My CLXs are bolt upright (to within 0.1 degree using a digital level) and are with exactly zero toe-in and exactly the same distance from the front wall (5-6 feet) and the side walls, using a laser "tape" measure. Speakers and I are set-up in an approximate equilateral triangle.
No need to measure thanks. I can do all of that except get the speakers 5 - 6 feet out into the room. I would have no room left! But just for fun, when the wife is at work tomorrow, I may just give it a shot!
ML recommends the rear of the box to be 0nly 10" off the back wall for the 11As (I’m a tad more than that) and 24" off the side walls. I’m 24" off the left side and open to a kitchen on the right. I usually set the toe in with ML’s flashlight method to begin then move them around accordingly. My wife likes them toed in a bit more. Again, I will play around with this tomorrow. Thanks for all your suggestions!
@elliottbnewcombjr interesting, thanks. Tough to find any reviews on them, been around since at least 2012.
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@ozzy Great advice, thank you! Now, do I go about getting a "Test Signal"?
Thanks @orthomead
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@ozzy OK, sorry for my ignorance. Once I figure out what a test signal is and download it, what do I do with it? Do I need a microphone, computer software, etc?
Then, how do you relate this signal from the mains to that of the subwoofer?
Is there a link somewhere on how to do what you are suggesting? Thank you
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@audphile1 OK, I move my listening chair closer in and moved the speakers further out from the wall, then toed them in a bit more than the ML recommends. I also ran the Genisis Arc program (in auto) and as long as I play well recorded, bass heavy music, (like one of @jasonbourne52 favorites, Slow Jam by Euge Groove), it sounds pretty good and goes pretty deep. One thing I did notice, when I turn the .arc3 file off (so less bass) I hear more detail in the mids and the highs than when the heavier bass file is turned on.
I’d still like to try a sub. I have my Coda pre-amp up for sale so if & when it sells, I may use the funds to pick up a sub (or two).
@docknow I see a couple of 210s came up here on Audiogon, I’m trying to scrape of the funds for one or two. Christmas time is a tuff time to do so.
Thanks to all for your help & advice!
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@rauliruegas Thank you so much for your lengthy, informative, kind reply, so much information, I will have to read this 3 of 4 times, for sure.
But in the end, this pretty well sums it up:
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS
Thank you again and all the best!
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@audphile1 Did the 4 feet, flashlight, can't get more than 72" separation and running the DAC at your suggested Minimum 0. Sounds good but I still may try a sub. Trying to sell off some gear in order to do so. Daughter still has 1/2 left to go at university! if you know of anyone looking for a super low hour, pristine condition Aurender N200, let me know!
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@ozzy
That is why I suggest first finding out how low your speaker will actually perform.
OK, I still have to figure out how to do this first.
@rauliruegas
Velodyne - DDP-10+ - Digital Drive Plus 1250W Active Subwoofer
At $5,600 each, I think these are out of my reach at present but thank you for all you help and suggestions!
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@audphile1
What do you have in mind for a source to replace the N200?
The M1 as network player. My Coda preamp is up for grabs as well. I'm using the M1 for that too. I like separates the most, but I want some decent subs as well, so it's a bit of a tradeoff.
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@rauliruegas OK, will do, thank you! I was looking at the BalanceForced 210 model by Martin Logan as they may be easier to integrate with my mains.
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@rauliruegas great post(s) thanks.
I was just about to purchase a pair of Martin Logan BalancedForced 210s and the guy, who is a ML dealer said that they are only good with home theater and that they are not fast enough for my speakers, He recommends a pair of REL S/812s
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@audphile1 Thanks, I will heed your advice!
@rauliruegas Thank you for the tips on the SVS SB16. I know with the RELs they prefer placement either on the inside or the outside of the main speakers. Do you think this would be the case with a pair of the SVS's or would I have to revert to the "Crawl Method" and place these where I find nulls in the room? I presume you also prefer wired subs over wireless?
The other subs I was considering were the KEF KC92s. Two 9" balanced forced woofers. Any though on these?
KEF KC92
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@rauliruegas would this be sufficient alternative to the SVS SB16?
SVS SB4000
I was only considering the physical dimensions; it's a little bit smaller. Or would the 16 be the way to go?
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@audphile1 I see the Coda has 2 RCA outs (L/R) and the M1 only has 1 (L/R) out. Is it better to have the two outs if you're running two subwoofers?
Hmm, maybe I should I keep the Coda?
The RELs leads hook up to the power amps speaker's output connections, but I think I have been talked out of RELs.
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@ricred1 sorry, I missed the point, are you in agreement with @rauliruegas ?
I'm starting to get cold feet about this whole subwoofer thing, There's so much conflicting information. Maybe tone controls are the answer...LOL!
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@g2the2nd lol, though I think I could use some supple subs...
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@ricred1 at almost $13K a pop you better prefer them to the measly priced SVS 16 Ultras :-)
@rauliruegas thank you!
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@ricred1 Enjoy!
@tablejockey
I can just dream for know about some giant Soundlabs and a swarm of REL No 32’s.
LOL, me too! Thank you and @audphile1 for the commonsense advice. I will follow through with that next listening (playtime) session!
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@ricred1 - by the way, that’s a beautiful system you have there!
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@m-db check out his virtual system here on Audiogon
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@g2the2nd thanks, do you mean GR Research "Servo" subs?
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@coltrane1 Sorry then about my post, you're probably right!
If you don't mind me asking, what model MLs do you have?
Your system isn't virtual here.
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@cundare2 Interesting, thanks. I just don’t know if the R10s are enough for my 500 sq. ft space and moving up the line to the R12s in a pretty significant price jump. Yikes!
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@audphile1 It's funny, I had a Coda CSiB V3 with my Martin Logan Spires. The capacitors all blew so I sent it into Doug, and he recommended changing it to V1. The Spires had so much bass with V1 I didn't need subwoofers.
I also asked him about integrated and separates and he said the Coda 8 and the CB pre are identical in sound to the CSiB. I did not ask him about more bass with V2 or V3 over V1, but I will do so. Thanks for the thought.
On a side mote, my wife, who has much better ear for music than I, sat down and listened to a bunch of music switching quickly between the Aurender N200 and the Bricasti M1's network card and could hear little difference between the two. Sometimes even giving the Bricasti the edge. The N200 is a wonderful piece and I've always been a separates kinda guy, but the Bricasti is an amazing piece of equipment which handles all these functions so well and being so pleased with the sound I sold the N200 last night.
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@audphile1I tried that when I first got the M1 and thought the Coda sounded better but maybe the M1 has broken in now so I'm using it as again as my pre and have the Coda CB for sale.
Couple of other things: I asked OCD Mikey what his favorite sub-woofer set up was and said "no subwoofers" ha, ha, ha!
And, about you Wilsons, how do you compare their box sound compared to your old ESLs (if you can remember?)
My wife and I did a tour off a bunch of audio shops a few years back and listened to numerous speakers (mostly boxed) even demoing a couple of our favorites back at home, ditching them all for the MLs. There was a set of Wilsons playing in the background at one of those places we were at, and they sounded awesome, but I didn’t ask for a listen as they were way over my budget.
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@audphile1 +1!
Funnily enough, I just sold my Roon Nucleus, so using JRiver currently. Roon has a nicer user interface, that’s for sure, but I need to play around a some more and try to figure things out a bit better.
Hey, the N200 was great, but I'm not sure, in my case, it was worth more than what I sold it for great.
I will get back to you when Doug Dale comments on the V configurations and their bass components.
Thanks for all the comments, have a grand weekend!
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@m-db I would LOVE to have that subwoofer, but even at that discounted price, two of them would be WAY over my budget, but thank you!
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@audphile1
I mention to Doug Dale about my old MLs having more bass and here is his response regarding going to V2 or V3.
"Might be the different MLs. If you are the original owner of the #8 we can switch to a V2 for free (minus shipping). We are changing the V3 at this time but could do that as well when we receive our next shipment of caps".
Didn't really answer the question, so I asked again and he hasn't responded. Having dealt with him many times over the years, I've noticed he is a man of few words.
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As the title suggests, my final thoughts are that I am going to live without subwoofers, at least for now.
Thanks to all that contributed here, as always, I have learned a lot through from the group.
Happy Holidays to you all and your families!
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@m-db for the military? Our tax dollars hard at work...lol!
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